• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Amphetamine Neurotoxicity and Tolerance Reduction/Prevention II

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Probably posted this paper before, but its such a good read!
http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v12/n11/full/nrn3111.html#B107

It pretty much states that CREB -> DeltaFosB -> NF-kb -> epigenetic changes (though each step in the above appears to mediate changes).
Multiple myocyte-specific enhancer factor 2 (MEF2) is likely a mechanism for NMDA mediated epigenetic changes as it is regulated by Ca2+ sensitive proteins.

By contrast, a very different cascade mediates chronic amphetamine-induced repression of the Fos gene. Here, ΔFOSB binds to the Fos promoter and recruits HDAC1 and SIRT1, and presumably numerous other proteins90.
Not sure I like the fact amphetamine treatment modulates SIRT1... Its heavily involved in the ageing process :/
 
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Not sure I like the fact amphetamine treatment modulates SIRT1... Its heavily involved in the ageing process :/

Bummer. Well, I believe amph is highly pro-aging, so maybe take SIRT1 'nutrients' like resveratrol, pterostilbene, and what else? Vit D?
Sry if this has already been discussed, nice thread.
 
Bummer. Well, I believe amph is highly pro-aging, so maybe take SIRT1 'nutrients' like resveratrol, pterostilbene, and what else? Vit D?
Sry if this has already been discussed, nice thread.

They've been mentioned but not discussed in depth, that would be a good place to turn the discussion to. I looked at ginseng and it appears that the doses of even the active constitute (RG-1) would be in the grams unless it has some sort of synergistic actions I'm missing.

Interestingly enough SIRT1 appears to be responsible for both gene silencing (presumably involved in the downregulation of many proteins by amphetamine, which may be a key point in tolerance) and the strangely low rates of dementia found in stimulant users.

Weird... I'm going to have to do more digging
 
Does it have any actions in the VTA?
Sorry, I am not so much into the addiction topic. This is just something I accidentally stumbled upon on my search for the effects of glutamate transporters in schizophrenia and treatment with clozapine.
 
I know this is slightly off topic but I posted about it few months ago and you didn't tear me a new one, so I assume it's ok.

In my previous post I asked about suggestions on how to minimize the racing heart and palpitations I usually get from my Dexedrine because I take it as needed and not every day (have ADD but just got recently diagnosed so I'm used to deal with it and prefer to not take medications when it's not too bad).

I started using propanolol and so far it's been amazing! I just take a quarter of a pill (10mg) with the Dexedrine pill and I don't experience any acceleration in my heartbeat, and only an acceptable increase in blood pressure (not different than without the propanolol). If I add one aspirin to the mix I can also avoid the increase in blood pressure.

I know this thread is about neurotoxicity and tolerance, but I'm also concerned about the effects on the cardiovascular system, so I figured I'd share.

I actually don't really understand why beta blockers are not more widely used, I know there's a lot of talk about them not being good with stimulants but I couldn't really find a lot of evidence, besides the theory that since they only block the beta adrenergic receptors more drug would activate the alpha receptors with an increased rise in blood pressure from vasoconstriction. Is there any actual evidence against the use of beta blockers and stimulants (in particular amphetamines) that you guys can share?
 
I know this is slightly off topic but I posted about it few months ago and you didn't tear me a new one, so I assume it's ok.
*grabs fisting gloves as a precaution and starts Rammstein playlist*

I know this thread is about neurotoxicity and tolerance, but I'm also concerned about the effects on the cardiovascular system, so I figured I'd share.

I actually don't really understand why beta blockers are not more widely used, I know there's a lot of talk about them not being good with stimulants but I couldn't really find a lot of evidence, besides the theory that since they only block the beta adrenergic receptors more drug would activate the alpha receptors with an increased rise in blood pressure from vasoconstriction. Is there any actual evidence against the use of beta blockers and stimulants (in particular amphetamines) that you guys can share?

Well beta blockers are stellar drugs, they're generic to the extreme and can produce some rather unpleasant side effects in some populations. Not to mention the "anxiety crowd" just seems to be hell bent on benzo's, so this class of drug is even further overlooked. So in short, its more of a marketing issue than a efficacy issue.

The issues with amphetamine use is that its much like MAO-B inhibitors in the fact if dosed carefully it can have a positive effect on the user yet improper dosing can result in sudden severe distress (think massive doses of either drug during a meth binge 8o). I can't recall any solid studies on it off the top of my head, but its been covered before.
 
I love propanolol too but I now use it sparingly (10-30 mg at a time). Beta blockers can cause depressive symptoms with chronic use as well as unwanted fat gain.

40-60 mg is almost recreational in those with high bodily anxiety.
 
Well looks like piracetam increases stimulant response in rats in a distinctly non-placebo manner. And, before everyone comes rushing in asking "is it safe to mix?" I will answer with a resounding "don't know,probably not". Piracetam's known pharmacology suggests that it would boost several processes known to worsen amphetamine tolerance (weak NMDA/AMPA positive allosteric modulation, no radical scavenging ability, and weird weird effects on membranes) but who knows what else it can do. Small molecule drugs like piracetam are notoriously dirty, binding to everything at low concentrations yet requiring doses so high its ridiculous.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22607774
http://hightowerpharmacology.blogspot.ca/2012/01/pharmacology-of-nootropics-volume-1.html
 
Similarly, positively modulating the AMPA receptor itself increases the activation of the NMDA receptor, and so piracetam can be considered to be somewhat self-potentiating.
^From the hightowerpharm link.
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I don't understand this. How can a compound be self-potentiating?
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Same link:
One of the advantages of allosteric activation is that it supports receptor activation even in the presence of physiological receptor antagonists (barbiturates, benzodiazepines, alcohol). Similarly, allosterism prevents receptor over-activation in the presence of excessive agonist (glutamate).
^Does this mean that piracetam prevents receptor over-activation when using amphetamines?
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n addition to enhancing glutaminergic neurotransmission, piracetam also effects, and is effected by, the cholinergic system. This system consists of 2 families of receptors (metabotropic & ionotropic) and its ligand, acetylcholine (Ach). In dementia and cognitive decline, both types of receptors are diminished along with the production of acetylcholine. The reason for the latter is due to a generalized death of acetylcholine producing neurons in the hippocampus, and due to diminished production of the enzyme choline acetyl transferase. The latter is responsible for the reason that supplementing with acetylcholine precursors has little impact on cognition in dementia, whereas compounds that prevent the degredation of acetylcholine (Acetylcholinesterase Inhibitors) markedly improve dementia symptoms.
Couldn't one just take choline? Even if you did, I take it that has nothing to do with preventing acetylcholine from degrading. Again, I don't believe I understand this. Guess I should read more into acetylcholine and acetylcholinesterase inhibitors. Something tells me choline bitartate (cheaper yes), should always be taken with piracetam.
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Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) is a fat soluble compound which participates in the ETC as an electron acceptor from Complex I and II. Relative deficiencies of CoQ10 have generalized deleterious effects on the body, mostly as a result of mitochondrial dysfunction. Supplemental CoQ10 has a multitude of health benefits including limiting membrane peroxidation, and reducing ROS formation. The latter two mechanisms would naturally support mitochondrial longevity and function, and synergize well with piracetam. Co-supplementing with Vitamin E helps to regenerate the active form of CoQ10, ubiquinol from its oxidized form, ubiquinone. There is also some evidence that the combination increases tissue retention of CoQ10 (14). Keep in mind that these effects would require chronic supplementation in order to be observed, and that the effects will be much more pronounced in those experiencing progressive memory decline.
Ok.. so I should get CoQ10, Vitamin E, and ALCAR.

I guess this is off topic from amp toxicity, but I found that an informative read. Not sure what the 2nd link had to do with this thread though.. because of the talk of AMPA?
 
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Epsilon alpha whats your opinion on quercetin?

Its been shown in rodents to atenuate morphine tolerance due to its ability to supress nos; nos is implicated in tolerance to opiates; benzo's and sensitization to amphetamine and cocaine (possibly tolerance too).
It may also work on other pathways involved in tolerance but our mod probably knows more about this.
It is a SIRT1 Antagonist tough not a agonist as first tought.

Im also interested in its ability to supress PDE4 and raise camp wich potentiates LTP.
On imminst people had very interesting results by combining a PDE4 inhibitor; forskolin to increase cAMP further and a stimulant (drastic tolerance reduction has been reported too wich may be attributed to cAMP's ability to upregulate D2)

Evidence for involvement of ventral tegmental area cyclic AMP systems in behavioral sensitization to psychostimulants.
Tolliver BK, Ho LB, Reid MS, Berger SP.
Source
Department of Psychiatry, University of California at San Francisco, USA.
Abstract
The present study investigated the role of ventral tegmental area (VTA) cyclic AMP (cAMP) systems in the behavioral sensitivity to psychostimulants in male Sprague-Dawley rats. Bilateral microinjections of cholera toxin (CTX) into the VTA (50-500 ng/500 nl/side) dose-dependently sensitized animals to the locomotor stimulant effects of systemic d-amphetamine, cocaine and apomorphine, but were without effects on morphine-induced locomotion 24 hr after microinjection. The CTX-induced behavioral sensitization to amphetamine was even greater 72 hr after microinjection, but was no longer present 14 days after intra-VTA CTX pretreatment. Coadministration of the cAMP-dependent protein kinase inhibitor H8 into the VTA blocked CTX-induced sensitization to amphetamine, suggesting that the sensitization is dependent on phosphorylation events in the VTA mediated by cAMP-dependent protein kinase. Pretreatment with CTX did not enhance amphetamine-induced dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens relative to saline controls 24 hr after microinjection. A single bilateral injection of d-amphetamine into the VTA (5 micrograms/side) produced a significant sensitization to systemic amphetamine challenge 72 hr later, and this effect was also blocked by coadministration of H8 into the VTA. These results extend previous studies which have established the importance of the VTA in the development of behavioral sensitization and suggest that cAMP systems may play a crucial role in this neuroadaptive process.
Dont know wheter this has been discussed before.

Also i have posted before how DAA has been reported to reverse stimulant tolerance; while nmda downregulation seemed a reasonable explanation one of the anecdotes reported tolerance reversal straight away; increases in cAMP can explain this.

D-Aspartic acid is a novel endogenous neurotransmitter.
D'Aniello S, Somorjai I, Garcia-Fernàndez J, Topo E, D'Aniello A.
Source
Departament de Genètica, Institut de Biomedicina, Facultat de Biologia, Universitat de Barcelona, Barcelona, Spain.
Abstract
D-aspartic acid (D-Asp) is present in invertebrate and vertebrate neuroendocrine tissues, where it carries out important physiological functions and is implicated in nervous system development. We show here that D-Asp is a novel endogenous neurotransmitter in two distantly related animals, a mammal (Rattus norvegicus) and a mollusk (Loligo vulgaris). Our main findings demonstrate that D-Asp is present in high concentrations in the synaptic vesicles of axon terminals; synthesis for this amino acid occurs in neurons by conversion of L-Asp to D-Asp via D-aspartate racemase; depolarization of nerve endings with K(+) ions evokes an immediate release of D-Asp in a Ca(2+) dependent manner; specific receptors for D-Asp occur at the postsynaptic membrane, as demonstrated by binding assays and by the expansion of squid skin chromatophores; D-aspartate oxidase, the specific enzyme that oxidizes D-Asp, is present in the postsynaptic membranes; and stimulation of nerve endings with D-Asp triggers signal transduction by increasing the second messenger cAMP. Taken together, these data demonstrate that D-Asp fulfills all criteria necessary to be considered a novel endogenous neurotransmitter. Given its known role in neurogenesis, learning, and neuropathologies, our results have important implications for biomedical and clinical research.
D-aspartate: an atypical amino acid with neuromodulatory activity in mammals.
Errico F, Napolitano F, Nisticò R, Centonze D, Usiello A.
Source
Laboratory of Behavioural Neuroscience, Ceinge Biotecnologie Avanzate, Naples, Italy.
Abstract
Within the pool of endogenous amino acids, serine and aspartate are the only two residues occurring at significant concentrations in free D-form in mammalian tissues. D-Serine (D-Ser) is mainly localized in the forebrain structures of the CNS throughout embryonic development and postnatal phase. Compelling evidence demonstrates that D-Ser has a functional role as an endogenous co-agonist at N-methyl-D-aspartate receptors (NMDARs) and shows its beneficial involvement in psychiatric disorders including schizophrenia. On the other hand, knowledge concerning the role of free D-Asp in mammals has so far been less extensive. D-Asp occurs in the brain as well as in peripheral tissues including the endocrine glands. In endocrine glands, D-Asp levels increase during the postnatal period in concomitance with their functional maturation. The involvement of D-Asp in the regulation of the synthesis and/or release of different hormones has been clearly demonstrated. However, its biological significance in the brain is still obscure. D-Asp appears with a peculiar temporal pattern of localization, being abundant during embryonic development and strongly decreasing after birth. This phenomenon is the result of the postnatal onset of D-Asp oxidase (DDO) expression, the only known enzyme that strictly controls the endogenous levels of D-Asp. The pharmacological affinity of D-Asp for the glutamate site of NMDARs has raised the intriguing question whether this D-amino acid may have some in vivo influence on responses mediated by this subclass of glutamate receptors. In order to unveil the physiological function of D-Asp and of its metabolizing enzyme, genetic and pharmacological approaches have been recently developed. It has now become possible to generate animal models with abnormally elevated levels of D-Asp in adulthood based on the targeted deletion of the Ddo gene and on the oral administration of D-Asp. These animal models have thus highlighted that D-Asp has a neuromodulatory role at NMDARs in brain areas where they regulate crucial nervous functions. Indeed, abnormally high D-Asp levels in the hippocampus are able to strongly enhance NMDAR-dependent LTP and, in turn, to facilitate spatial memory of mice. Moreover, in both mutant and treated animals, this deregulated D-Asp content completely suppresses striatal LTD, most likely via overactivation of NMDARs. The later synaptic plasticity alteration resembles that produced by chronic administration of haloperidol and is probably the neurobiological substrate responsible for the attenuation of prepulse inhibition deficits induced by amphetamine and MK-801 in Ddo knockout and D-Asp-treated mice. These in vitro and in vivo findings, together with others reported in this review, support a neuromodulatory action for D-Asp at glutamatergic synapses. In addition, they suggest that this D-amino acid may play a potential beneficial role in conditions related to a pathological hypofunctioning of NMDARs in the mammalian brain.
 
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Not sure I like the fact amphetamine treatment modulates SIRT1... Its heavily involved in the ageing process :/

It actually appears that SIRT1 isnt that much involved as first tought (compounds that activate this dont extend the lifespan of rodents wich supports this) but sirt3 plays a much more important role. But there are so many genes involved its hard to know whats going on; another example resveratrol wich inhibits telemorase also involved in aging doesnt reduce lifespan either.

@Dextermeth
Piracetam appears to act on nmda but not only that also on AMPA; because of acting on AMPA it increases the activation of the nmda receptor so basicly it potentiates itself by acting on AMPA too.
 
Lol no worries it made sense, its pretty interesting looking at the roles of D2 like receptors (D2, D3, and D4) in impulsiveness and social roles. Here's some interesting info on it that pretty much damns the whole "amphetamine for social anxiety" movement as well (sorry MeD, D2 downregulation is a bitch :/).

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v5/n2/abs/nn798.html
Its a bitch but it can be overcome however i dont think memantine really is ideal as it impairs LTP; so im trialling alternatives. (Stimulants still work for my social anxiety after using them for damn ages as an aside.)
 
It actually appears that SIRT1 isnt that much involved as first tought (compounds that activate this dont extend the lifespan of rodents wich supports this) but sirt3 plays a much more important role. But there are so many genes involved its hard to know whats going on; another example resveratrol wich inhibits telemorase also involved in aging doesnt reduce lifespan either.

@Dextermeth
Piracetam appears to act on nmda but not only that also on AMPA; because of acting on AMPA it increases the activation of the nmda receptor so basicly it potentiates itself by acting on AMPA too.

Damn MeD you did your homework! And, spot on with the explanation :)

As for my opinion on quercetin: its a steller in vitro substance though its oral bioavailability makes me wonder if direct supplementation has any sort of benefit over a natural source, say a bowl of blueberries and walnuts. It certainly won't hurt if its known pharmacology pans out, but I'd say for now its just another reason to cook with as many spices as possible and eat berries/leafy greens.

cAMP is a weird weird thing to look at on a gross scale as its more of a where/when/how much type messenger than the neurotransmitters we're more accustomed to discussing here. I'm not familiar with PDE4 expression, but I'll have to look into that. Mind going more in depth on the role of cAMP? I've kind of pigeon holed my research on it into CREB and PKA only.
 
Im fully researching it at the moment so cant say much but i think especially PDE inhibition is extremely interesting and of therapeutic value.

cAMP is extremely important in LTP and combined with a PDE4 wich inhibits its breakdown and a stimulant there seems to be some very potent cognitive enhancement going on.
I have to research this more as PDE's and cAMP can have implications in anhedonia; tolerance; addiction; ADHD; social impairment but not all those are relevant to this forum.
 
If youv been hanging weights on your dick like ubiya you wont need any.
 
Dude that was a serious question MeD. Also, what is your gmail, I'm sick of you popping up every other month.
 
I dont see any reason for you to take viagra.

Just pm your msn im to lazy to reply to pm's most of the time.
 
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