Am I a bad person?

[psychedelicsoul]

I'm wondering how y'all view morality and stuff...

I'm religious, and think homosexuality is an abomination. Even though I morally oppose gay marriage, I don't really care for it because I don't think it makes a difference... society is already sinful and wicked, and homosexuality is just one aspect of that. I support equality under the law.
I support the freedom to deny wedding requests and if I were a baker or did any form of catering, I'd refuse to do a gay wedding. However, I wouldn't flat out discriminate against a gay person just because they're gay.

I have and wouldn't hesitate to continue speaking against homosexuality. I went through christian schools and knew some gay students. I would not be shy about saying their feelings were wrong
If I have a wife and kids I will teach my children to be like me. If one of them is gay, I'd still love them, but I'd also condemn them and since I'd be burdened by the concept of them going to hell, I'd try to distance myself.
Not out of hate... but it's reasonable why parents often time disown gay kids. It's not hate, it's because you know they're not going to heaven, so it's painful to get close to them.

However, I do not believe in doing anything I feel directly harms gays?

My question is,.. do I seem like a bigot? Or bad person? Or harmful to gays? Is the fact that I don't believe in directly hurting them enough for you to respect my views.
Doesn't the fact that I support freedom and refuse to do something that would directly take kit way justify my homophobia?
I mean, if I don't support taking away gay peoples freedom or killing them or anything... then why is it wrong for me to be homophobic personally.
And if you're allowed to say it's okay to be gay, then why is it wrong for me to spread my religious beliefs?

 

[Jabberwocky]

I support the freedom to deny wedding requests and if I were a baker or did any form of catering, I'd refuse to do a gay wedding. However, I wouldn't flat out discriminate against a gay person just because they're gay.

Uh, what? A little contradicting don't you think?

I would not be shy about saying their feelings were wrong

I feel like something is missing. Oh, I know, arguments to support why it's wrong.

If I have a wife and kids I will teach my children to be like me

When please, for the love of god (pun intended), don't have kids.

but it's reasonable why parents often time disown gay kids. It's not hate, it's because you know they're not going to heaven, so it's painful to get close to them.

I won't even try to argue with that.

My question is,.. do I seem like a bigot? Or bad person? Or harmful to gays? Is the fact that I don't believe in directly hurting them enough for you to respect my views.
Doesn't the fact that I support freedom and refuse to do something that would directly take kit way justify my homophobia?
I mean, if I don't support taking away gay peoples freedom or killing them or anything... then why is it wrong for me to be homophobic personally.
And if you're allowed to say it's okay to be gay, then why is it wrong for me to spread my religious beliefs?

Bad person, nah, not so much. It's not exactly your fault that you've been brainwashed but it's your responsibility to get back on track.
Harmful to gays, well yeah sure, if anyone listens to you and think that it sounds reasonable.

And if you're allowed to say it's okay to be gay, then why is it wrong for me to spread my religious beliefs?

If you weren't a religious nut case I would assume you were trolling right now. I mean, seriously?
You can't see the difference between allowing anyone to be and do whatever they feel like (as long as their actions doesn't cause harm to others) as opposed to using religious beliefs to oppress others just because you aren't comfortable with their actions? No one is forcing you to suck a cock so why would you even give a fuck (hey, it rhymes!)

 

[psychedelicsoul]

Uh, what? A little contradicting don't you think?

Not at all... I support the freedom of gays to do what they want without affecting others. I support the freedom for chirstians to do that as well... I would serve a gay person, since it's not a sin to do that. I wouldn't' reject the person, I'd reject the wedding ceremony. If they wanted anything else, I'd be fine to serve them.

I feel like something is missing. Oh, I know, arguments to support why it's wrong.

Don't need any. It's wrong biblicaly. And though I'm currently an agnostic, I got the feeling it's wrong. However, it's not objectively right or wrong. But back in the day, I was more religious and would say, "It's bad, cause the bible condemns it"...
After all, if it's okay to be religious, it's okay to express your beliefs to others
As an agnostic however, my spirit tells me it's wrong... I just think that way...
However, back when I was religious I did tell people they're bad. If they believe me, then they are bad. If one is gay, and believes it's a sin. Then are they not morally wrong simply because morality is subjective? If morality is subjective, any gay people who thinks they're bad is bad.

When please, for the love of god (pun intended), don't have kids.

I think I'd make a fine father... as long as the kid isn't LGBT.

I won't even try to argue with that.

It's just the truth in some cases. The issue is actually very, very complicated

Bad person, nah, not so much. It's not exactly your fault that you've been brainwashed but it's your responsibility to get back on track.
Harmful to gays, well yeah sure, if anyone listens to you and think that it sounds reasonable.

I formed my own beliefs. Also, if I'm harmful to gays for saying homosexuality is bad, then gay people are harming christians by telling them not to feel that way. If one listens to me, and does what I suggest to remedy homosexuality, it's not bad because they are doing it. In their context, homosexuality is bad. And since they're an individual, they can rightfully decide that they are bad people.

If you weren't a religious nut case I would assume you were trolling right now. I mean, seriously?
You can't see the difference between allowing anyone to be and do whatever they feel like (as long as their actions doesn't cause harm to others) as opposed to using religious beliefs to oppress others just because you aren't comfortable with their actions? No one is forcing you to suck a cock so why would you even give a fuck (hey, it rhymes!)

How am I oppressing gays by simply stating that I believe it's a sin? If I am not directly harming them, how is it oppression?

Here's my question... nobody is forcing gays to hate themselves, so why do you care if people think it's a sin?

 

[swilow]

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve with this thread. I guess I am trying to figure out if you want to have a serious debate or be provocative; it seems inflammatory. It also goes against another thread you've posted where you talk about being agnostic. I don't especially care what you are, but I think you need to at least attempt to be consistent. I'm going to watch this topic. There's nothing wrong with these sort of discussions, but I can't see it having a very positive impact. I totally disagree with your opinion but you're entitled to it.

If we are to have this discussion, there is no point in ad hominen's and they won't be tolerated.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Whether or not you approve of homosexuality, OP, it isn't going anywhere.
I think Jesus (assuming he was a real person) would have been okay with it.

The anti-homosexual sentiments in the Bible are like the slavery laws in Deuteronomy.
You need to look at them in a historical context.
It was a time before safe sex and equality.

Oppressing homosexuality on a social level causes it to go underground.
Like black market alcohol; prohibition solves nothing.
It (homosexuality) is an inherent part of human nature.

Experts say that homophobia is often caused by repressed homosexual tendencies.
I've experienced this, personally. My father made it clear that he didn't want us to be gay.
Yet, I've always been attracted to both sexes.
It's something I've struggled with.

You ask, "Are you a bad person (for being homophobic)?"
I used to wonder, "Am I bad person (for masturbating to same-sex pornography)?"
I actually tried to correct the behavior (for a long time) and I kept it to myself.
I suspect lots of guys have these tendencies, and they bury them.

My brother knows I'm bisexual (he is too) but he's the only family member I feel like I can talk to about that stuff.
For my entire life, I'm going to have to hide part of myself from my family. And you're contributing towards that.
Then again, I suppose, you might feel like you have to hide your homophobia / disapproval of homosexuality.
And, I sympathize.

It's not helpful to label you a troll or tell you not to have kids.
Being intolerant of homophobic people, because they're intolerant of others, is illogical.

I'm religious, and think homosexuality is an abomination.

There is no need to call it (homosexuality) an abomination, just as there is no need to call you a troll.
It is a delicate issue. Have some respect, please, and try to express yourself with less hatred.

Fundamentalist Christians who picket against gay rights have such hatred in them.
This, to me, as someone who has studied the New Testament extensively, is anti-Christian.
It is not your place - as a Christian (I assume you are) - to judge, or hate, anyone.

If I have a wife and kids I will teach my children to be like me. If one of them is gay, I'd still love them, but I'd also condemn them and since I'd be burdened by the concept of them going to hell, I'd try to distance myself. Not out of hate... but it's reasonable why parents often time disown gay kids. It's not hate, it's because you know they're not going to heaven, so it's painful to get close to them.

You say it's not hate, but it is (as far as I'm concerned). That's how it comes across, anyway.
God makes people gay; He doesn't care about sexual preferences, at all.
To disown your children (to any extent) isn't justifiable.

I guess you could argue that God also makes people intolerant of gays.

My question is,.. do I seem like a bigot? Or bad person? Or harmful to gays? Is the fact that I don't believe in directly hurting them enough for you to respect my views.

Is a cowardly racist respectable; if someone created a thread about how they think Asian people are an abomination - but it's okay because they're not into genocide - would that be okay?
I'm sorry, but - currently - I don't respect your views. It would be easier to understand your position if you explained what it is about homosexuality you disapprove of.
We really need to have a discussion, about this, to get anywhere.

Keep in mind, that I'm very well versed in scripture... and answer the following questions:

1. Do you believe everything in the Old Testament and follow all the laws? (I can prove that you don't.)
2. If not (again, I can prove it), how do you chose what to believe and what to disbelieve?
3. Are your parents homophobic?
4. Do you have an active sex life?
5. Do you suffer from premature ejaculation or erectile dysfunction?
(I'm sorry, that last one is a very personal question. But, it's relevant. Humor me, if you will.)

Answer honestly.
(Lying is a sin.)

I mean, if I don't support taking away gay peoples freedom or killing them or anything... then why is it wrong for me to be homophobic personally.

Flip that around: what does it accomplish?
As for what harm it does, you're promoting intolerance.
Intolerance and homophobia robs people of basic freedoms.

And if you're allowed to say it's okay to be gay, then why is it wrong for me to spread my religious beliefs?

You're allowed to say you disapprove of homosexuality, but that doesn't mean everyone's going to like it.
The reaction you get - after making homophobic/racist statements - simply reflects how unpopular your belief is.
It isn't wrong to "spread" it. But, who knows what the next person in the chain is going to do?
You might not beat homosexuals to death, but lots of people do (world-wide).
Perhaps you should acknowledge this and not promote hatred?

...

I'm not sure that I "approve" of gender re-assignment surgery.
It's something in society that I really struggle to accept.

If my child grew up to be transgender, I would discourage it.
The idea of a doctor mutilating their genitals, and making them infertile, is a little horrifying (honestly).
But, in the end, I'd rather have them in my life: I would never abandon them; even if they murdered someone in cold blood.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve with this thread. I guess I am trying to figure out if you want to have a serious debate or be provocative; it seems inflammatory. It also goes against another thread you've posted where you talk about being agnostic. I don't especially care what you are, but I think you need to at least attempt to be consistent. I'm going to watch this topic. There's nothing wrong with these sort of discussions, but I can't see it having a very positive impact. I totally disagree with your opinion but you're entitled to it.

If we are to have this discussion, there is no point in ad hominen's and they won't be tolerated.

I am agnostic... However, certain beliefs from christianity are still fresh in my mind.

I made this thread with the intent of asking whether ones thoughts, feelings, or persepective can be harmful to others, even if it's not directly any of their business.
I wondered if pro-gay people see the position that homosexuality is wrong to be inherently harmful.

Are my beliefs an issue for others? Are Christians, muslims, some agnostics, jews, and other religious groups accountable for actual brutal homophobia.
If a man hears his pastor saying, "God hates fags" and the the guy shoots a gay person, is the pastor partially responsible for preaching the bible?

 

[ForEverAfter]

If a man hears his pastor saying, "God hates fags" and the the guy shoots a gay person, is the pastor partially responsible for preaching the bible?

Absolutely.
No question.

Where does it actually say in the Bible that God hates fags?
(Hint: it doesn't.)

 

[tazer floyd]

as a gay guy it just really, really hurts to know that people think this :/ i don't think any way i've lived my life hurts anyone, so i don't see why it can't be tolerated

 

[psychedelicsoul]

Whether or not you approve of homosexuality, OP, it isn't going anywhere.
I think Jesus (assuming he was a real person) would have been okay with it.

The anti-homosexual sentiments in the Bible are like the slavery laws in Deuteronomy.
You need to look at them in a historical context.
It was a time before safe sex and equality.

I'm not a christian... I'm "Religious" doens't mean I'm christian... But the bible does condemn homosexuality in the NT, not just the OT

Oppressing homosexuality on a social level causes it to go underground.
Like black market alcohol; prohibition solves nothing.
It (homosexuality) is an inherent part of human nature.

But saying, "I don't like this" isn't oppression

Experts say that homophobia is often caused by repressed homosexual tendencies.
I've experienced this, personally. My father made it clear that he didn't want us to be gay.
Yet, I've always been attracted to both sexes.
It's something I've struggled with.

Well, I'm ex-bi. I changed when I decided to change my beliefs. Now I believe that homosexuality is wrong for some people due to it going against their current sense of morality. You illustrated why I think it's bad. Well...
Correction.
It's not "Bad" cause there's no such thing as "Bad". Homosexuals with internalized homophobia need spiritual help.

You ask, "Are you a bad person (for being homophobic)?"
I used to wonder, "Am I bad person (for masturbating to same-sex pornography)?"
I actually tried to correct the behavior (for a long time) and I kept it to myself.
I suspect lots of guys have these tendencies, and they bury them.

Simple answer... if you think you're bad for it, you are.

My brother knows I'm bisexual (he is too) but he's the only family member I feel like I can talk to about that stuff.
For my entire life, I'm going to have to hide part of myself from my family. And you're contributing towards that.
Then again, I suppose, you might feel like you have to hide your homophobia / disapproval of homosexuality.
And, I sympathize.

I'm not contributing to anything. My sense of morality exists within myself.

It's not helpful to label you a troll or tell you not to have kids.
Being intolerant of homophobic people, because they're intolerant of others, is illogical.

Smart words

There is no need to call it (homosexuality) an abomination, just as there is no need to call you a troll.
It is a delicate issue. Have some respect, please, and try to express yourself with less hatred.

Didn't mean it as an insult. For me, the word is rather casual and doesn't have much impact. It's not as bad as if I said "evil" but whatever, I understand

Fundamentalist Christians who picket against gay rights have such hatred in them.
This, to me, as someone who has studied the New Testament extensively, is anti-Christian.
It is not your place - as a Christian (I assume you are) - to judge, or hate, anyone.

I don't hate anyone...

You say it's not hate, but it is (as far as I'm concerned). That's how it comes across, anyway.
God makes people gay; He doesn't care about sexual preferences, at all.
To disown your children (to any extent) isn't justifiable.

I would change how I act, and probably try to think less of the kid. That's not my intent, but it would just be something that happens.

I guess you could argue that God also makes people intolerant of gays.

Well... To some extent. I do think my feelings come from my creator. I think homosexuality is wrong for some people. I think it's a result of the mind and soul not connecting well. And as a result they become victim to their own morality. Even if they're not naturally homophobic, if they become homophobic, then their soul would adapt and it would be wrong for them to be gay.

Think about it... if religion is made up, then homophobia comes from man, not religion. And if man is made from God... You figure there might be some connection. I don't claim to know stuff this deep. .

Is a cowardly racist respectable; if someone created a thread about how they think Asian people are an abomination - but it's okay because they're not into genocide - would that be okay?
I'm sorry, but - currently - I don't respect your views. It would be easier to understand your position if you explained what it is about homosexuality you disapprove of.
We really need to have a discussion, about this, to get anywhere.

I think I summed it up. I just feel that it's wrong and if others feel the way I do, then for them it's wrong.

Keep in mind, that I'm very well versed in scripture... and answer the following questions:

1. Do you believe everything in the Old Testament and follow all the laws? (I can prove that you don't.)
2. If not (again, I can prove it), how do you chose what to believe and what to disbelieve?
3. Are your parents homophobic?
4. Do you have an active sex life?
5. Do you suffer from premature ejaculation or erectile dysfunction?
(I'm sorry, that last one is a very personal question. But, it's relevant. Humor me, if you will.)

1. No
2. I feel like I can access parts of my soul through meditation.
3. Kinda, but not really
4. no
5. no

Flip that around: what does it accomplish?
As for what harm it does, you're promoting intolerance.
Intolerance and homophobia robs people of basic freedoms.

I support freedom of gays and homophobes. It's not until one does something to directly infringe on the others freedoms... Then, either one will piss me off

You're allowed to say you disapprove of homosexuality, but that doesn't mean everyone's going to like it.
The reaction you get - after making homophobic/racist statements - simply reflects how unpopular your belief is.
It isn't wrong to "spread" it. But, who knows what the next person in the chain is going to do?
You might not beat homosexuals to death, but lots of people do (world-wide).
Perhaps you should acknowledge this and not promote hatred?

I acknowledge that... it's none of my business. The song with YOLO promotes, and has influenced sheer stupity. Is the writer a bad person, because some kids were negatively influenced and form a fucked up state of mind as a result?
Yolo isn't just a phrase, it's a philosophy.
It states that life is short, so self-destruction isn't a big deal since you'll die anyway.
Is Drake a bad person for selling this catch phrase?

I'm not sure that I "approve" of gender re-assignment surgery.
It's something in society that I really struggle to accept.

If my child grew up to be transgender, I would discourage it.
The idea of a doctor mutilating their genitals, and making them infertile, is a little horrifying (honestly).
But, in the end, I'd rather have them in my life: I would never abandon them; even if they murdered someone in cold blood.

Neither would I, however, I'd probably just not be the same.
I wouldn't abandon them. I never said I'd kick them out. But I do understand why some parents disown thier kids

 

[psychedelicsoul]

Absolutely.
No question.

Where does it actually say in the Bible that God hates fags?
(Hint: it doesn't.)

Okay, bad example... What if he talked about the verses in the OT and NT and told his congregation that the bible disaproves of homosexuality and that God disaproves and that it's a sin.
Maybe he was fired up and preached passionately, and while not promoting violence, still told them homosexuality is wrong.
Plus, if the God of the bible will burn gay people forever, that sounds a lot like hate to me.

Honestly, I don't understand christians who aren't like the WBC. The God written in the bible is pretty cruel. I'm pretty sure 90% of the world is hated by him.
(I know there's other interepretations of the NT, but I'm not into jamming interpretations down the throats of different denominations)

 

[ForEverAfter]

But the bible does condemn homosexuality in the NT, not just the OT

There are a lot more passages in the NT promoting acceptance than there are passages condemning homosexuality.
There are - what - two passages in the NT against homosexuality (and neither of them are gospel passages)?
The NT doesn't condemn homosexuality. If you think that, you don't know Christ.

But saying, "I don't like this" isn't oppression

You didn't say "I don't like this".

Well, I'm ex-bi. I changed when I decided to change my beliefs. Now I believe that homosexuality is wrong for some people due to it going against their current sense of morality. You illustrated why I think it's bad. Well... Correction. It's not "Bad" cause there's no such thing as "Bad". Homosexuals with internalized homophobia need spiritual help.

Well, that was extraordinarily revealing.
I knew from what you wrote that you'd had same-sex feelings, but I didn't expect you to admit it.
Good on you for being honest.

Homosexuals with repressed same-sex feelings may need spiritual help, but you're not offering it.
What you're doing is the opposite of helpful.

You can't change your sexuality.
The only thing you can do is repress it.
You're still bisexual, you just don't act on it (anymore).

Let me ask you this: (assuming you've had at least one same-sex encounter) are you going to hell?
How many times does a man have to perform felatio on another man before he is damned: 23; 4?

You ask, "Are you a bad person (for being homophobic)?"
I used to wonder, "Am I bad person (for masturbating to same-sex pornography)?"
I actually tried to correct the behavior (for a long time) and I kept it to myself.
I suspect lots of guys have these tendencies, and they bury them.

Simple answer... if you think you're bad for it, you are.

No offense, but that is the most ridiculous statement I've ever seen on this website.
(I'll explain why later.)

I'm not contributing to anything. My sense of morality exists within myself.

Yes, you are.
You said you were "spreading" your religious beliefs.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to do so, but - by doing so - you are contributing to the problem (IMO).

Didn't mean it as an insult. For me, the word (abomination) is rather casual and doesn't have much impact. It's not as bad as if I said "evil" but whatever, I understand

I don't hate anyone...

If you go around calling homosexuality an abomination, people will assume you hate homosexuality.
Like I said, this is a delicate issue. You need to be careful with your wording.

You say it's not hate, but it is (as far as I'm concerned). That's how it comes across, anyway.
God makes people gay; He doesn't care about sexual preferences, at all.
To disown your children (to any extent) isn't justifiable.

I would change how I act, and probably try to think less of the kid. That's not my intent, but it would just be something that happens.

Life might surprise you.
I hope it does.

Well... To some extent. I do think my feelings come from my creator. I think homosexuality is wrong for some people. I think it's a result of the mind and soul not connecting well. And as a result they become victim to their own morality. Even if they're not naturally homophobic, if they become homophobic, then their soul would adapt and it would be wrong for them to be gay.

Think about it... if religion is made up, then homophobia comes from man, not religion. And if man is made from God... You figure there might be some connection. I don't claim to know stuff this deep. .

I'm confused about two things.
If you're agnostic (with Christian tendencies) who is your creator?
And, you've changed from homosexuality being wrong to it being wrong for some people.
Who is it wrong for and who isn't it wrong for, and why?
Who determines this: you; God?

I just feel that it's wrong and if others feel the way I do, then for them it's wrong.

You really have to explain this.
Is masturbation wrong, if people feel guilty about it?
You're not making any sense.

1. Do you believe everything in the Old Testament and follow all the laws? (I can prove that you don't.)
2. If not (again, I can prove it), how do you chose what to believe and what to disbelieve?

1. No
2. I feel like I can access parts of my soul through meditation.

This is about you, again, then. Not homosexuality, in general.
You're not saying being gay is wrong, you're saying it's wrong for you?
I really don't understand how that works.

Is stealing wrong, if someone doesn't think it is wrong?
What about rape? Murder? Genocide? Child-abuse?
You haven't thought this through.

4. Do you have an active sex life?

4. no

Okay. (I suspected that would be the answer.)
Some more questions.

1. Why (do you think) you aren't having sex regularly? (How has your sex life been since you decided to be straight?)
2. Have you had a same-sex encounter in the past?
3. If so, what was the gender of your last sexual partner and how long ago was that?
4. And, how many men have you been with (total) versus women?

I acknowledge that... it's none of my business. The song with YOLO promotes, and has influenced sheer stupity. Is the writer a bad person, because some kids were negatively influenced and form a fucked up state of mind as a result?
Yolo isn't just a phrase, it's a philosophy.
It states that life is short, so self-destruction isn't a big deal since you'll die anyway.
Is Drake a bad person for selling this catch phrase?

It is your business if you promote a mentality that results in violence.
If life is short and nothing matters, then why not enjoy sex?
Your ideologies are getting confused.
What do you believe in, exactly?

Neither would I, however, I'd probably just not be the same.
I wouldn't abandon them. I never said I'd kick them out. But I do understand why some parents disown thier kids

You weren't very clear.
You said you would distance yourself from your children.
That's why I said:

To disown your children (to any extent) isn't justifiable.

 

[swilow]

Its a huge simplification of the issue, and a bit disingenuous. Are you a bad person? We have very little information. I think you are a confused person. I don't understand how you can claim to be religious and agnostic. Are you following the dogma of religion without having the belief? If that is so, that sounds like madness to me.

A trait of a bad person is trying to justify why they are 'bad'. I don't think you are bad, but I think your views are way off. I think your line of thinking is negative. I honestly think that the exclusivity of religion is destroying it. There's no evidence that god gives two shits about who we fuck (or anything we do really). The Bible is not evidence of god. Nor is the koran, the talmud or any sacred book. Man made rules. A bad person is someone who does something wrong but claims it as, not only good, but expected and desirable.

You might need to put aside fundamental christianity if you want to try and treat strangers fairly.

as a gay guy it just really, really hurts to know that people think this :/ i don't think any way i've lived my life hurts anyone, so i don't see why it can't be tolerated

Yeah, I can understand how it would hurt. I don't understand homophobia TBPH. It just seems unjustified.

FWIW, it would seem that every poster in this thread so far has same-sex attraction in part. I 'used to' identify as bisexual, though I've found myself more boringly heterosexual these days. I say 'boringly', but for now, I find what I am after with women. I certainly hope my same-sex desires re-emerge though; they were entertaining for me. It seems pointless to write off basically half the population.

I still try and get off watching gay porn from time to time, but it doesn't do much for me. I can entertain fantasies that are interesting and compelling but they often switch just before I cum to female. I think this is more related to desire to procreate then anything though...

 

[psychedelicsoul]

There are a lot more passages in the NT promoting acceptance than there are passages condemning homosexuality.
There are - what - two passages in the NT against homosexuality (and neither of them are gospel passages)?
The NT doesn't condemn homosexuality. If you think that, you don't know Christ.

Like I said... there are verses in the NT that support the idea that homosexuality is a sin.
However, the NT gets rid of the law. That means christians are not to punish or stone gays. Because the bible promoted tolerance to sinners, doesn't mean it's saying it's a sin.

It only had two passages because why do you need more? It said it's a sin, and it got the point across. It also got the point across that it's not okay to hate them. But calling it a sin isn't hating them.

You didn't say "I don't like this".

But calling something a sin or wrong isn't that much different. Considering how morality isn't truely uniform. Calling it a sin in terms of christianity, islam, and judism isn't an insult, it's just their interpretation of scriptures

Well, that was extraordinarily revealing.
I knew from what you wrote that you'd had same-sex feelings, but I didn't expect you to admit it.
Good on you for being honest.

You shouldn't jump to conclusions like that... I'm sure plenty of people who think the same way might be completely straight. I didn't get into this much detail becuase I didn't want to take the time to explain how my religious beliefs work... We'd be here all day. I've done a lot of meditation through acid and I feel like I've discovered stuff about myself.

Homosexuals with repressed same-sex feelings may need spiritual help, but you're not offering it.
What you're doing is the opposite of helpful.

You don't know what my intentions are...
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...on-the-kinsey-scale-drove-me-to-near-insanity
This should clear it up

You can't change your sexuality.
The only thing you can do is repress it.
You're still bisexual, you just don't act on it (anymore).

You believe in God but you think he's powerless to change a persons state of mind?

Let me ask you this: (assuming you've had at least one same-sex encounter) are you going to hell?
How many times does a man have to perform felatio on another man before he is damned: 23; 4?

Nope... I believe some people are born with souls that are straight, gay or bi. As a result homophobia naturally occured. Then of course man made religion. The homophobia found in the bible was a reflection of the writers... but where did they get it from?
I believe in a 3 part person. Body, brain, and soul. The brain can sometimes be different than the soul. However, sometimes a person may be gay, and feel horrible about it. That's because deep down inside, it's truely wrong for them.

Yes, you are.
You said you were "spreading" your religious beliefs.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to do so, but - by doing so - you are contributing to the problem (IMO).

I guess that's just a side effect of it... Oh well. I can't argue that...

If you go around calling homosexuality an abomination, people will assume you hate homosexuality.
Like I said, this is a delicate issue. You need to be careful with your wording.

You're right.

I'm confused about two things.
If you're agnostic (with Christian tendencies) who is your creator?
And, you've changed from homosexuality being wrong to it being wrong for some people.
Who is it wrong for and who isn't it wrong for, and why?
Who determines this: you; God?

Yea... I my beliefs are complex so I didn't initially take the time to say all of it.
I do not profess to know the nature of the creator. He might be a horrible tyrant, he might a kind dude who lets everybody into heaven, he might be childish and arbitrary, he might not even think... he could be soulless and robotic and apply heaven or hell based on strict codes and has no true conscious.
It's unknowable.

However, I put little focus on him, and more on what he has in us. I believe in a soul. I think that the soul and the mind are fluid. They can change. I actually believe peoples sexuality change all the time, it's just something we're not aware of. In fact, I think most changes in sexuality are involuntary. I think there's a nature put in each of us uniquely. A code of morality that was given to us from god by birth and shaped my experiance. The soul is pure, and through meditation, psychedelic drugs, and dreams we can tap into our souls and find and even change our true selves.

I think in some people, there are souls that condemn homosexuality from within... as a result, some gay people become defensive, and tempermental. Not all of course... but some of them talk endlessly and endlessly about pride... Deep down their heart still suffers from shame. Some are able to defeat that shame and live happily as gays, others can't and fall deeper into sorrow and depression like me.

The only way to be happy was to change my mind to fit my soul.

You really have to explain this.
Is masturbation wrong, if people feel guilty about it?
You're not making any sense.

This is about you, again, then. Not homosexuality, in general.
You're not saying being gay is wrong, you're saying it's wrong for you?
I really don't understand how that works.

Yes, anything you do that you think is wrong is wrong.

Is stealing wrong, if someone doesn't think it is wrong?
What about rape? Murder? Genocide? Child-abuse?
You haven't thought this through.

Those things, (I'm not saying this is gods will, but what I see about society) break the law of morality that humans should have. If I made a religion, it would have 1 sin.
Thou shalt not do anything that impairs thy neighbors freedom or health.

Child rape, murder, genocide, and child abuse impair the health of others and strip away their free will. I think it's wrong for gays to sue bakeries for not making wedding cares... but I think it's wrong to not let gays marry.
I think that conversion therapy is okay for consenting adults, but not kids.
I think the only thing that truly is wrong is something that goes agianst another persons freedom. And disturbing ones comforts unjustly, or harming one, or killing them violates the other person pathway in life.
However, I dont' feel the same way about suicide. I see that as a choice and a right.

For those suffering with their sexuality, I do not judge suicide. I don't see it as a wrong as it doesn't harm others directly. I see change, acceptance and suicide as 3 options, equally.

Okay. (I suspected that would be the answer.)
Some more questions.

1. Why (do you think) you aren't having sex regularly? (How has your sex life been since you decided to be straight?)
2. Have you had a same-sex encounter in the past?
3. If so, what was the gender of your last sexual partner and how long ago was that?
4. And, how many men have you been with (total) versus women?

1. I beat off just as much
2. No, nor have I ever thought about it. I only used to beat off to images of shotacon. But I'd never fantasize about actually doing it, that made me puke. The idea of anal, straight or gay, is fucking disgusting. However, I do watch lesbian porn with anal. However, the idea of actually giving a girl anal grosses me out.
When I first accepted that I was bi, I got drunk and cried alone... It was in the middle of my torture therapy. I used to think gay thoughts came from demons and that I don't need to change my sexuality, I just need to get rid of them. When I accepted that these were my thoughts, I had no choice but to just cry and belittle myself.

But I didn't give up, I kept on torturing myself. Now I feel that I'm in control
3. The closest I've come to was licking a girls feet and kissing her
4. None

It is your business if you promote a mentality that results in violence.
If life is short and nothing matters, then why not enjoy sex?
Your ideologies are getting confused.
What do you believe in, exactly?

God creates a flexible soul with a sense of morality in it. When one person harms another or takes freedom from another, they interfere with that. That's why it's the only objective sin... There are many subjective sins... homosexuality, masterbating... but those manifest or are formed in the fabric of an individuals soul.

 

[ForEverAfter]

It only had two passages because why do you need more?

Because Christ never mentions it and the NT is supposed to be the guidebook for Christianity (note the first six letters of this word).

You didn't say "I don't like this".
But calling something a sin or wrong isn't that much different.

You said "abomination", not sin.

Well, that was extraordinarily revealing.
I knew from what you wrote that you'd had same-sex feelings, but I didn't expect you to admit it.
Good on you for being honest.

You shouldn't jump to conclusions like that... I'm sure plenty of people who think the same way might be completely straight.

I wasn't jumping to conclusions. It was obvious.
And - lo, and behold - I was correct.

What does completely straight, mean?
Have you ever met anyone who's completely straight, and how would you know?
You're not completely straight, and I assume you don't go around advertising your (former) penchant for pubescent Japanese penises?

You don't know what my intentions are...

I didn't say you're not intending to help.
The fundamentalists who picket against homosexuality probably have good intentions.
What I'm saying is: (practically) you're not helping.

You believe in God but you think he's powerless to change a persons state of mind?

I didn't say that, either.
The way I understand God, He doesn't intervene.

God made you the way you are.
Why would He, then, change you?
Doesn't make sense.

Let me ask you this: (assuming you've had at least one same-sex encounter) are you going to hell?
How many times does a man have to perform felatio on another man before he is damned: 23; 4?

Nope... I believe some people are born with souls that are straight, gay or bi. As a result homophobia naturally occured. Then of course man made religion. The homophobia found in the bible was a reflection of the writers... but where did they get it from?
I believe in a 3 part person. Body, brain, and soul. The brain can sometimes be different than the soul. However, sometimes a person may be gay, and feel horrible about it. That's because deep down inside, it's truely wrong for them.

Okay.
You're going to have to explain this a bit more.
God makes gay souls so that people go to hell?
I don't understand how that makes any sense.

You're right.

I know.

Yes, anything you do that you think is wrong is wrong.

So when I was a teenager and I masturbated, it was wrong (because I felt shame).
But, now it isn't?

For those suffering with their sexuality, I do not judge suicide. I don't see it as a wrong as it doesn't harm others directly. I see change, acceptance and suicide as 3 options, equally.

That is a horrible thing to say.

1. I beat off just as much
2. No, nor have I ever thought about it. I only used to beat off to images of shotacon. But I'd never fantasize about actually doing it, that made me puke. The idea of anal, straight or gay, is fucking disgusting. However, I do watch lesbian porn with anal. However, the idea of actually giving a girl anal grosses me out.
3. The closest I've come to was licking a girls feet and kissing her
4. None

Shotacon is essentially child-pornography, not homosexual pornography.
For those that don't know, shotacon is a Japanese branch of cartoon child-pornography, typically revolving around young petite boys.
Since it is not technically exploiting actual children, it is legal in Japan.

...

Perhaps, you were so ashamed for jerking off to pictures of little boys that you decided same-sex attraction is wrong?
(I don't think this is a remotely logical conclusion.)

And, how can you masturbate to lesbian pornography while maintaining that homosexuality is a sin?

I've done a lot of meditation through acid and I feel like I've discovered stuff about myself.

No offense, mate, but you're about as confused as they come.
Lots of people meditate and consume LSD.
I spent an entire year on mushrooms.

...

What country did you live in, when you were masturbating to shotacon imagery?
Do you realize that - in most countries - this is considered to be illegal child pornography?
In Japan it is legal, but the legal status is currently being debated.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

Because Christ never mentions it and the NT is supposed to be the guidebook for Christianity (note the first syllable).'

If you're a christian, shoudln't you follow the whole NT? Sure Christ never mentions it... But Paul did... I think. One of them wrote that it was a sin.
You're the bible expert, did christ ever mention fornication.. If he did, keep in mind that doesn't mean "sex before marriage. It's Pornea, a greek word that meant sexual immorality in general. If you see that homosexuality is condemned in other places, then it would fall under fornication.

You said "abomination", not sin.

Sorry

I wasn't jumping to conclusions. It was obvious.
And - lo, and behold - I was correct.
(There's no such thing as completely straight.)

That's bullshit. There are some people who are gay and straight that are never gonna like women or men.

I didn't say you're not intending to help.
The fundamentalists who picket against homosexuality probably have good intentions.
What I'm saying is: (practically) you're not helping.

It's not helping for some... But if I were 12, and I saw this thread from someone... I'd be so happy. I'd start the torture immediately. The more pain the less guilt.

I didn't say that, either.
The way I understand God, He doesn't intervene.

God made you the way you are.
Why would He, then, change you?
Doesn't make sense.

Why would he make poeple gay and claim homosexuality is a sin?

Okay.
You're going to have to explain this a bit more.
God makes gay souls so that people go to hell?
I don't understand how that makes any sense.

To be honest, I fucked up when I mention hell...
I currently believe in an afterlife, I have no theory on what it's like. God might be a big asshole and just send everyone there.

So when I was a teenager and I masturbated, it was wrong (because I felt shame).
But, now it isn't?

Nope, it isn't.

That is a horrible thing to say.

It's because I can't objectively call their decision wrong... So I respect their choice

Shotacon is essentially child-pornography, not homosexual pornography.
For those that don't know, shotacon is a Japanese branch of cartoon child-pornography, typically revolving around young petite boys.
Since it is not technically exploiting actual children, it is legal in Japan.

I used to jerk off to adult males like... what? A handfull of time. I didn't need to torture myself to get rid of that. Those feelings just went away on their own.
Plus, I feel no guilt about lolicon

And, how can you masturbate to lesbian pornography while maintaining that homosexuality is a sin?

Because I'm not the girl who eats pussy. I'm a guy... Now, it's a sin if one of those actress's deep down feel that it's a sin. But they're not me.

No offense, mate, but you're about as confused as they come.
Lots of people meditate and consume LSD.
I spent an entire year on mushrooms.

Yea... but they didn't torture themselves. I didn't just do psychedelics, and smoke spice, and drink... but I tortured the fuck out of myself for a few months straight. I'd beat the hell out of myself and stab my palm and cry, "I deserve the pain."
I needed to... not only did it help me change, but with each strike, each burn, and each cut I felt more pure. It was like the pain was evolving me, and cleansing me.
I took a vow of sorrow.

That means if I heard my favorite song and had a gay thought, I'd turn it off. If I'm playing my favorite game, watching my favortie show, I'd stop. I decided to stop being happy and doing happy things as punishment. I ever skipped meals and drank all the time. The only thing I didn't give up were the drugs. Without them, I would have killed myself.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I'm glad that psychedelics have helped you to stop masturbating over little boys.
But, I don't see what that has to do with homosexuality...
And you're still confused.

Maybe you've come a long way.
But you've got a long way to go.

...

Ignoring the Bible and your psych experiences, can you explain to me - logically - what is wrong about homosexuality?
You mentioned earlier (I couldn't be bothered scrolling and quoting) that it is okay if something doesn't harm another person.
It was in a different context (you were justifying something) but (unless you're being selective about it) it should apply here.

I don't see how consensual homosexual acts hurt anyone.
I'm happy to explain to you how cartoon child pornography harms children, if that helps.
I think it's strange that you made this thread about homosexuality rather than child-porn.
Because that's really the issue here, isn't it?

 

[psychedelicsoul]

I'm glad that psychedelics have helped you to stop masturbating over little boys.
But, I don't see what that has to do with homosexuality...
And you're still confused.

Becuase I have no guilt over lolicon... And I used to occasionally like men. It was all about the fact it was the same sex. Otherwise, I'd be ashamed of lolicon too

Ignoring the Bible and your psych experiences, can you explain to me - logically - what is wrong about homosexuality?
You mentioned earlier (I couldn't be bothered scrolling and quoting) that it is okay if something doesn't harm another person.
It was in a different context (you were justifying something) but (unless you're being selective about it) it should apply here.

It's not wrong objectively. I only see one objective sin. But I think it is wrong for the people who suffer from being gay. Not all gays suffer. I did.

I don't see how consensual homosexual acts hurt anyone.
I'm happy to explain to you how cartoon child pornography harms children, if that helps.
I think it's strange that you made this thread about homosexuality rather than child-porn.
Because that's really the issue here, isn't it?

How does lolicon hurt kids? Pedophiles will like kids with or without it
I did like adult males, but that ended right during the early stages of my therapy. It was very weak. I love loli's, but only felt guilty about shotacon.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Before I answer the question, I'd like you to try to answer it yourself.
I'll give you a hint: why do you think it is illegal? (Think about it, for a couple of minutes.)

Are you a pedophile?

 

[Jabberwocky]

It's not helpful to label you a troll or tell you not to have kids.
Being intolerant of homophobic people, because they're intolerant of others, is illogical.

I didn't say he was a troll. I'm very much aware that he's being serious but if this homophobic rant had occured without the add-on of religious beliefs then I would have been more than likely to assume that he was trolling as I've never seen this degree of homophobic behavieur without some kind of religious beliefs being involved. That's that I meant by the statement that you are refering to, no more, no less.

Actually, I'm not intolerant of homophobic people per se, as I do realise that they must have some issues causing this kind of behaviour but yes, I'm intolerant of homophobic slur in public as I can imagine how it might make a gay person feel and if they are told that they are in the wrong often enough, they might just start believing it them self and that just ain't right. I wouldn't have any problems what so ever with a homophobe who kept that kind of stuff to him/her self and/or realise that it's their own problem, not the homosexuals.
They could just keep it to them self and stay out of other peoples lives, no problem then. You do have a point though.

While the stuff about him not having kids can seem kind of strong, I can't really say that I regret saying it 'cause I honestly don't think that he should for the time being. It's not that I want to rob him of that joy (if he views it as such ofc), I'm just concerned about the kids.
I can't imagine the hell they would have to go through if they turned out to be gay. I agree that it ain't helpful, because he obviously wouldn't follow that advice anyways. I just hope he'll experience a drastic shift of perception regarding homosexual behavieur before such a time may come.

as a gay guy it just really, really hurts to know that people think this :/ i don't think any way i've lived my life hurts anyone, so i don't see why it can't be tolerated

I can only imagine but the fact of the matter is that he is part of a very small minority in this aspect. There certainly is way too many who thinks like this (one is one too many if you ask me) but most people don't.

FWIW, it would seem that every poster in this thread so far has same-sex attraction in part.

If you're right, then I'm definately in for a surprise some time in the future! I kind of hope that you're right though, as I can certainly see the advantages of being bi-sexual. Not that it would matter for the time being as I'm in a monogamous relationship and I hope it'll never end.
I think you're confusing my emphaty towards oppressed people in general for homosexual tendencies though. Stuff like this just really gets to me, it doesn't matter if the target is homosexuals, a specific race, homeless people or whatever, nothing gets me up from my chair as fast as public bashing of minoritys who's done no harm to anyone. I simply can't keep my mouth shut when I encounter stuff like that.


OP: I don't think it would be wise of me to engage any further in this discussion with you.
First of all, I might end up spending a lot of time and energy on this without anyone of us getting anything from it, leaving me even more frustrated.
Secondly, I think ForEverAfter is doing a brilliant job at taking this thread to an intellectual level of which I simply wouldn't be able to do, possibly for the benifit of you and most certainly for the benifit of whoever might read through this thread.
So I'll just leave you to it.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

Before I answer the question, I'd like you to try to answer it yourself.
I'll give you a hint: why do you think it is illegal? (Think about it, for a couple of minutes.)

Are you a pedophile?

Becuase of peoples morals, that's why people think it's illegal, it's simply morally repugnant to people. Lolicon/shotacon give people an outlet for their desires. But it's not the source of their desires.