Alcohol hangover = Alcohol withdrawal (?)

[burn out]

@burn out that is indeed a silly little hat lol

I see your perspective, although my idea of someone who is attention seeking and fame seeking is something different. This seems to be him giving advice to people on a public platform. That seems to be most of what he does. Trying to help people navigate life. Attention seeking, to me, has a negative connotation. I think he's honestly just trying to help people in this clip and most other clips I've seen of him.

anyways, back on topic

Help people while also making loads of money and getting famous at the same time. This is a guy who tried to sell one of his carpets on twitter for $2,000.

I'm not saying he doesn't want to help people, I just think there are other motivations in play also. I've always been astounded at how people are stupid enough to believe government and media propaganda, but then I realized that while I am not very susceptible to that type of propaganda, I have a real tendency to follow the philosopher-psychologist-guru type and after having many experiences of being fooled by gurus and the like, I've learned to employ more skepticism toward these types.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Hangovers you can get used to. Withdrawal you can't...

 

[Xorkoth]

Another question: Why is it that some people (like me) do not get hangovers?

I used to not get hangovers much, but then after years and years of drinking to excess, that changed. This morning I had a wretched hangover, I don't drink much anymore but got pretty drunk last night. Fell asleep, and woke up at 5am totally unable to sleep and feeling restless and shitty and was sick and miserable for most of the day. Which is why I quit drinking for the most part, I was sick of that.

You may find the same happens to you if you aren't careful.

 

[Conky]

I used to not get hangovers much, but then after years and years of drinking to excess, that changed. This morning I had a wretched hangover, I don't drink much anymore but got pretty drunk last night. Fell asleep, and woke up at 5am totally unable to sleep and feeling restless and shitty and was sick and miserable for most of the day. Which is why I quit drinking for the most part, I was sick of that.

You may find the same happens to you if you aren't careful.

You may be right

Having said that I'll take a hangover over DTs and hospital stays

Withdrawal from benzos and alcohol is traumatic

Imagine withdrawing from both at once

I suspect that is in my future

 

[cdin]

You may be right

Having said that I'll take a hangover over DTs and hospital stays

Withdrawal from benzos and alcohol is traumatic

Imagine withdrawing from both at once

I suspect that is in my future

imagine both at once after fucking your glutamate system with mountains of ket and nootropic abuse. yeh. that was me. it was life changingly traumatic. im getting a lot better now (2.5 years on) but my fucking god. makes any dope wd ive ever been through look stupid in comparison.

 

[Conky]

imagine both at once after fucking your glutamate system with mountains of ket and nootropic abuse. yeh. that was me. it was life changingly traumatic. im getting a lot better now (2.5 years on) but my fucking god. makes any dope wd ive ever been through look stupid in comparison.

How did you get through the withdrawals without dying?

I'm thinking next time I will check myself into the psych ward if the police don't bring me first...

 

[cdin]

How did you get through the withdrawals without dying?

I'm thinking next time I will check myself into the psych ward if the police don't bring me first...

It’s by the grace of the world I made it. 911 dialed in phone w hospital go bag packed for fucking months. Was insane. Was also right at the start of COVID so I wasn’t going anywhere near a hospital if I could help it. It was well and truly torture.

 

[Conky]

It’s by the grace of the world I made it. 911 dialed in phone w hospital go bag packed for fucking months. Was insane. Was also right at the start of COVID so I wasn’t going anywhere near a hospital if I could help it. It was well and truly torture.

So you went cold turkey? Jesus. I did also and turned into a trembling psychotic mess.

You should have went to the hospital or detox anyways. Tapering reduces the amount of damage.

 

[jasperkent]

...Withdrawal from benzos and alcohol is traumatic

Imagine withdrawing from both at once...

I've been through that and it is HELLISH.
I ended up getting medical detox and even then it was pretty rough. And that was when I was in my 30s and relatively healthy.
I don't think I could survive it now.

 

[cdin]

So you went cold turkey? Jesus. I did also and turned into a trembling psychotic mess.

You should have went to the hospital or detox anyways. Tapering reduces the amount of damage.

nope, i titrated myself outpatient. it was still absolute hell. this was only from 12mg, and not for too long either. still felt like fingers jammed in 120v socket for 9 mos. but yeah, i titrated as slowly and carefully as possible, probably more so than they would have inpatient. I doubt i would have survived CT.

 

[allone]

So you went cold turkey? Jesus. I did also and turned into a trembling psychotic mess.

You should have went to the hospital or detox anyways. Tapering reduces the amount of damage.

what damage? you think there is a lot of brain damage from quitting severe alcoholism?

 

[Conky]

what damage? you think there is a lot of brain damage from quitting severe alcoholism?

Neurological damage

Alcohol withdrawal & benzo withdrawal cause toxic levels of glutamate

The lack of GABA activity causes glutamate, dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin all to become too high

 

[plumbus-nine]

The lack of GABA activity causes glutamate, dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin all to become too high

Read that dopamine limits glutamatergic activity, was in a paper about the mechanisms of tardive dyskinesia, that dopamine was required to avoid toxic glutamate levels as a sort of safety net (their wording). Unfortunately I don't find it anymore. Thought that the 'big 3' would act independent of GABA, so that too much glutamate maybe potentiates the effects of other transmitters but wouldn't increase their levels?

But of course just guesswork.

 

[Conky]

Read that dopamine limits glutamatergic activity, was in a paper about the mechanisms of tardive dyskinesia, that dopamine was required to avoid toxic glutamate levels as a sort of safety net (their wording). Unfortunately I don't find it anymore. Thought that the 'big 3' would act independent of GABA, so that too much glutamate maybe potentiates the effects of other transmitters but wouldn't increase their levels?

But of course just guesswork.

Yeah, makes sense. The dopamine connection must be significant because I remained awake and mostly alert for a week while chugging whisky & rum 24/7. I only slept after being injected with 10mg Haldol.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Yeah, makes sense. The dopamine connection must be significant because I remained awake and mostly alert for a week while chugging whisky & rum 24/7. I only slept after being injected with 10mg Haldol.

Dopamine isn't just about stimulation - D2 does cause insomnia in me while D1/D3 at least initially causes sedation, it's a common side effect of D3-preferring dopamine agonists like pramipexole. Read that (in rats) for some individuals D2 is stimulating while for others it's inhibitive. Again, didn't save the source but it's on PubMed. Don't know about the significance in humans but I do believe that they know less than they should in regards to developing and approving medicine. Knowledge made some huge steps recently though, it just needs time to become available. For example D2 isn't the wanted targets about antipsychotics, it primarily causes side effects and there's now a TAAR1 antagonist in the pipeline which is devoid of antidopaminergic effects.

Haloperidol is a dirty beast of a drug, just have a look at the affinity table @ wikipedia, how many receptors it blocks is incredible and at some sites it is even an inverse (I believe D2 is among them) or an irreversible (like at sigma) antagonist. I once had 1mg and after a hour or so I got nasty dyskinesia. Can't imagine what 10mg's must be like.

Alcohol has a stimulating side to it for sure, GABAergic disinhibition is probably one of the origins as I get a similar effect when doing too much benzos in too little time but it's not everything. Drinking will increase dopamine acutely but this should mean that in the hangover there's a deficit in dopamine?

My hunch is that alcohol rebound is glutamatergic together with aldehyde toxicity. People on disulfiram get it instantly and very intense, and disulfiram disables acetaldehyde dehydrogenase. I got rebound effects remotely comparable to alcohol hangover minus aldehyde toxicity symptoms from over-using dissociatives (NMDA antagonist) and alcohol also acts on NMDA if I'm not completely misguided now. While alcohol withdrawal adds a GABAergic deficit on top.

 

[BenzoEnthusiast]

Neurological damage

Alcohol withdrawal & benzo withdrawal cause toxic levels of glutamate

The lack of GABA activity causes glutamate, dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin all to become too high

How long would you guess it would take your body/mind to get back to normal?
From say Alc and/or Benzos.
Open question to all ✌.

 

[FuckinAcidMan]

I always assumed we just called it a "hangover" cause we are uncomfortable with admitting how horrific alcohol is in terms of the slow creep towards physical dependence.

Hangovers do seem to resemble brief withdrawals, coupled with dehydration and lack of sleep/poor quality food when drinking.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Hangovers do seem to resemble brief withdrawals, coupled with dehydration and lack of sleep/poor quality food when drinking.

How much is known about the pharmacology of aldehyde? Just skimmed through the wikipedia page and they don't list anything. Wonder whether it mediates some effects which are opposing these of ethanol, specially glutamate NMDA agonistic and/or GABA-A antagonistic effects. Then hangover and withdrawal would have similar mechanisms but mediated by different actors.

A weird thing I once accidentally discovered is that as long as I was on a NMDA antagonist, I got much less hangover from co-ingested alcohol. Only works with long-acting antagonists or with redosing (which feels wrong when hangover starts but it works). So NMDA receptors are part of the picture but I don't know what one.

Alcohol is certainly a weird one because it gives you hangover after a single night drinking, which is otherwise only seen with stimulants imo. Benzos or most sedatives, dissociatives etc. take a while until tolerance manifests and then also rebound/withdrawal. With dissos the rebound is certainly not withdrawal but a consequence of acute tolerance (tachyphylaxis). With stims it's the depletion of transmitters mostly, a bit tachyphylaxis maybe depending on dosage.

 

[FuckinAcidMan]

How much is known about the pharmacology of aldehyde? Just skimmed through the wikipedia page and they don't list anything. Wonder whether it mediates some effects which are opposing these of ethanol, specially glutamate NMDA agonistic and/or GABA-A antagonistic effects. Then hangover and withdrawal would have similar mechanisms but mediated by different actors.

A weird thing I once accidentally discovered is that as long as I was on a NMDA antagonist, I got much less hangover from co-ingested alcohol. Only works with long-acting antagonists or with redosing (which feels wrong when hangover starts but it works). So NMDA receptors are part of the picture but I don't know what one.

Alcohol is certainly a weird one because it gives you hangover after a single night drinking, which is otherwise only seen with stimulants imo. Benzos or most sedatives, dissociatives etc. take a while until tolerance manifests and then also rebound/withdrawal. With dissos the rebound is certainly not withdrawal but a consequence of acute tolerance (tachyphylaxis). With stims it's the depletion of transmitters mostly, a bit tachyphylaxis maybe depending on dosage.

I find alcohol and its metabolites have a pronounced dissociative effect altho it is subtle and lost beneath the heavier GABA buzz

When I would take DXM freebase regularly, alcohol would not have a major hangover effect, thought I usually drank very little as DXM/DXO are pretty satisfying for the same switches alcohol hits

 

[allone]

I find alcohol and its metabolites have a pronounced dissociative effect altho it is subtle and lost beneath the heavier GABA buzz

When I would take DXM freebase regularly, alcohol would not have a major hangover effect, thought I usually drank very little as DXM/DXO are pretty satisfying for the same switched alcohol hits

whats dxm freebase? did you smoke cough syrup?