Alcohol hangover = Alcohol withdrawal (?)

[Snafu in the Void]

To me hangovers and withdrawals are two very different things. However I have heard from a few people online including Dr. Carl Hart and Dr. Jordan Peterson that alcohol hangovers ARE alcohol withdrawal. Carl Hart is pretty knowledgeable but controversial, Jordan Peterson did his PHD thesis on alcohol use disorder. So maybe they know what they're talking about?

Is this distorting the meaning of withdrawal? Obviously if you are a heavy/frequent enough drinker they start to blend together and you will experience hangover and withdrawal at the same time, but for an infrequent drinker who has a Saturday morning hangover - is this really withdrawal?

Is the increased anxiety, sweating, blood pressure, heart rate from a hangover really withdrawal from 1 night of drinking? I never thought so. Personally I never had significant anxiety during hangovers myself (which I am normally very prone to), nothing like real withdrawal at least, and I am a very heavy binge drinker.

Or is the action of 1 night of drinking on the brain really enough to cause some sort of dependence? Alcohol is a very unique drug I guess. Is benzo anxiety rebound considered withdrawal/dependence?

I've tried to find the research these two are referencing, but unfortunately the search terms I keep using are overcrowded with various random articles and blogs. If the research exists, I can't seem to find it.

Just wondering if anyone was enlightened on this issue.

 

[Electrum1]

Hmm, interesting. I mean, drinking some beers does make a hangover less shitty, so maybe?

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Hmm, interesting. I mean, drinking some beers does make a hangover less shitty, so maybe?

from what I understand hair of the dog works partly because alcohol kills the pain you're experiencing from hangover, but also interrupts the process of your body metabolizing the toxins including methanol which produce hangover because they are metabolized by the same enzyme

so it basically puts a pause on the hangover while you metabolize the new ethanol

 

[Fertile]

I think the 2 quite different. 20 years ago (almost exactly) I was drinking 2 bottles of vodka a day and did so every day for over a year. It took me a good 2 years to recover and I didn't touch a drop for 7 years. Now, I just remember that anxiety and depression and it does make be stick to drinking a lot less. I mean, I have drunk 3 beers each night for a week but not tonight. I DO feel it but one has to go through the pain to break the cycle.

I should add that clomethiazole (Heminevrin) saved my life. I just stopped drinking, took clomethiazole in ever decreasing doses for 12 days and stopped. I think benzo can also help but it seems to take a lot. Clomethiazole is an excellent treatment but drink on it and you will die. Mix it with other downers and you will die.... so it's something that's almost a DLR but if you are on 2 bottles of vodka a day, I think it IS your LR!

 

[jasperkent]

I'm not a doctor nor a scientist, but I think they are different yet can definitely overlap.

For the infrequent drinker who has too much, the hangover is more of a response to mild alcohol poisoning. The individual isn't used to that much alcohol and the body rebels. Suggest "hair of the dog" to that person and they might gag at the thought of it.

For an alcoholic like me, however, the morning after definitely included withdrawal. My headache and nausea weren't as severe as a normal person might experience but other symptoms (anxiety, depression, and especially tremors) were much worse. The ONLY thing that sounded good to me was a strong drink.

For a regular yet moderate drinker, the symptoms might fall somewhere between those two.

 

[cdin]

mine has built over time, i get SIGNIFICANT DT symptoms now from a single night above 4 beers worth of ethanol. i noticed it decades ago and it got worse over time/binges. now it's full on. so yeah, i would assume they are correct.

 

[neversickanymore]

I believe a hangover includes alcohol withdrawal, but when you eliminate sugar.. mixers and wine and or other carbohydrate.. beer exc. you see a presentation that is much more a true alcohol withdrawal and you do not see common hangover symptoms like headaches and prolonged nausea. Taking out the nicotine binges often triggered by alcohol intoxication also significantly reduces hangover symptoms.

 

[cdin]

yes for sure. i 100% seperate the "traditional hangover" from "AWD" symptoms. That's how i was clued in what was happening. Because id be hung over with friends like "man, yall get this sweaty, shaky, twitchy, electric ..... someones coming to MURDER YOU feeling along w headache and dehydration etc?" --- at the time most peers were like "nope" so i knew that part was something most people weren't experiencing. as I get older, and others get farther along the path of GABA damage, my middle age friends are coming and asking "wtf is this? why does xanax help my hangovers now?"

 

[Mjäll]

Sounds like clickbait to me. I mean, there's obvious overlap but everyone learns that alcohol hangover has an element of poisining to it, and thus it is qualitatively distinct from mere withdrawal. Most infrequent drinkers have no element of withdrawal whatsoever to their hangovers, and have no immediate desire for more alcohol, like jasperkent pointed out.

Both of those online gurus are likely charlatans profiting on the spiritual retardation of our western world, using their platforms to say some tragically repressed but really obvious common sense stuff about human nature while also spewing narcissistic bullshit pseudo-think allover.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

To me hangovers and withdrawals are two very different things. However I have heard from a few people online including Dr. Carl Hart and Dr. Jordan Peterson that alcohol hangovers ARE alcohol withdrawal. Carl Hart is pretty knowledgeable but controversial, Jordan Peterson did his PHD thesis on alcohol use disorder. So maybe they know what they're talking about?

Is this distorting the meaning of withdrawal? Obviously if you are a heavy/frequent enough drinker they start to blend together and you will experience hangover and withdrawal at the same time, but for an infrequent drinker who has a Saturday morning hangover - is this really withdrawal?

Is the increased anxiety, sweating, blood pressure, heart rate from a hangover really withdrawal from 1 night of drinking? I never thought so. Personally I never had significant anxiety during hangovers myself (which I am normally very prone to), nothing like real withdrawal at least, and I am a very heavy binge drinker.

Or is the action of 1 night of drinking on the brain really enough to cause some sort of dependence? Alcohol is a very unique drug I guess. Is benzo anxiety rebound considered withdrawal/dependence?

I've tried to find the research these two are referencing, but unfortunately the search terms I keep using are overcrowded with various random articles and blogs. If the research exists, I can't seem to find it.

Just wondering if anyone was enlightened on this issue.

They are the same thing just VERY different extremes.
A hangover IS technically very mild alcohol withdrawal.

 

[4meSM]

Yeah it's a type of acute withdrawal. Every symptom that would go away if you were to keep drinking is essentially a manifestation of alcohol WD.

Things like headaches, stomach issues and other symptoms that don't go away with another drink usually have a different origin (dehydration, damaged mucous membranes, etc.).

 

[jasperkent]

They are the same thing just VERY different extremes.
A hangover IS technically very mild alcohol withdrawal.

Yeah it's a type of acute withdrawal. Every symptom that would go away if you were to keep drinking is essentially a manifestation of alcohol WD.

Things like headaches, stomach issues and other symptoms that don't go away with another drink usually have a different origin (dehydration, damaged mucous membranes, etc.).

I still insist that a night of heavy drinking by a person who usually doesn't drink results in mild alcohol poisoning.

More booze will NOT alleviate those symptoms; the person will only get sicker.

 

[jasperkent]

Both of those online gurus are likely charlatans profiting on the spiritual retardation of our western world, using their platforms to say some tragically repressed but really obvious common sense stuff about human nature while also spewing narcissistic bullshit pseudo-think allover.

I don't know anything about Jordan Peterson, but Carl Hart is no charlatan. I read Hart's book, Drug Use for Grownups, and found it to be fact-based, intelligent, and insightful.

He is controversial because he doesn't toe the line and say what authorities are expected to say: drugs are bad, just say no, regular use = deadly addiction, abstinence is the answer, etc....

I respect the guy.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I don't know anything about Jordan Peterson, but Carl Hart is no charlatan. I read Hart's book, Drug Use for Grownups, and found it to be fact-based, intelligent, and insightful.

He is controversial because he doesn't toe the line and say what authorities are expected to say: drugs are bad, just say no, regular use = deadly addiction, abstinence is the answer, etc....

I respect the guy.

I like him, too.

The only thing he's said that I question is when he talks about his personal heroin and meth use. He casually mentions that he can use such drugs with no repercussions, can use them very responsibly and has no cravings to use them again the next day.

Only a small subset of the population could do such a thing. It just bothers me that when he said this on the JRE podcast to millions of people he gave no disclaimer or warning that not everyone would react this way.

I guess the inner harm reduction alarm went off in me. But overall I think he's very brave and a pioneer in some ways.

 

[Mjäll]

I don't know anything about Jordan Peterson, but Carl Hart is no charlatan. I read Hart's book, Drug Use for Grownups, and found it to be fact-based, intelligent, and insightful.

He is controversial because he doesn't toe the line and say what authorities are expected to say: drugs are bad, just say no, regular use = deadly addiction, abstinence is the answer, etc....

I respect the guy.

Sounds like a decent enough proposition, but the claim put forth in this thread is not. Overall i don't know much about this Carl Hart so was mostly commenting on his statement here.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Both of those online gurus are likely charlatans profiting on the spiritual retardation of our western world

They wrote a few books that are not promoted or advertised, they've been on a few podcasts by request... I'd hardly call them charlatans, they don't go around pushing products or services... they both stay in their natural element as one would do in their position and people come to them and buy their books if they like them.

They're not selling snake oil on the street and making a big display. They're not Dr. Oz, lol.

using their platforms to say some tragically repressed but really obvious common sense stuff about human nature while also spewing narcissistic bullshit pseudo-think allover.

I assume you're specifically speaking about Jordan Peterson here

The guy is a college professor and I really don't think he intended to become as internet famous as he did. His college lectures were posted on youtube years ago and they went viral-ish. I can understand why a lot of people don't like him, there are some glaring things I question about him myself.

You seem very animated and passionate here, who or what do you think people should learn psychology from instead? Just curious.

In this spiritually retarded world we live in-- where is the enlightenment you seem to prefer yourself?

 

[Mjäll]

They wrote a few books that are not promoted or advertised, they've been on a few podcasts by request... I'd hardly call them charlatans, they don't go around pushing products or services... they both stay in their natural element as one would do in their position and people come to them and buy their books if they like them.

They're not selling snake oil on the street and making a big display. They're not Dr. Oz, lol.


I assume you're specifically speaking about Jordan Peterson here

The guy is a college professor and I really don't think he intended to become as internet famous as he did. His college lectures were posted on youtube years ago and they went viral-ish. I can understand why a lot of people don't like him, there are some glaring things I question about him myself.

You seem very animated and passionate here, who or what do you think people should learn psychology from instead? Just curious.

In this spiritually retarded world we live in-- where is the enlightenment you seem to prefer yourself?

I'm not super passionate either way. I've appreciated JBP somewhat and viewed some lectures with pleasure but later concluded he likes to speculate on things he doesn't know about. Maybe charlatan isn't the best term, but he has said some incorrect things influencing people from his platform established by saying sensible stuff.

As for my spiritual vision i'm not exactly lambasting everything JBP says. I'm not totally against him as an inspiration at al. I agree on him about the spiritual shortcomings of our western world. I don't agree that hangover is withdrawal, though.

Terence McKenna is a similar figure who has worthwhile speeches about spirituality but also says dumb shit. They are way different in personality and other things, of course.

The main difference i guess is my vision of spirituality is not religious.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

he likes to speculate on things he doesn't know about

I suppose this happens to everyone who reaches a certain level of fame? So many dumbass celebrities on youtube with room temperature IQs constantly pushing out their speculative opinion on everything in the world from God to sociopolitical issues (which they are far separated from) and people just eat it up.

Though isn't that was a psychology professor should do in some ways? Especially one who so many young people look up to for guidance in the world?

But yeah, I get it.

Terence McKenna is a similar figure who has worthwhile speeches about spirituality but also says dumb shit.

Agreed. He's entertaining, has heart, but also a total goofball and has said some ridiculous shit.

The main difference i guess is my vision of spirituality is not religious.

I'm not religious either, but to each his own, right?

 

[Skorpio]

Subjectively, I feel like sleep deprivation is a major contributor to hangovers. I get nausea and shittiness feelings if I miss too much sleep that resembles a hangover. Furthermore, if I drink early and sober up before bed, I don't get a hangover. Finally, i will sometimes take 300-500 mg phenibut before bed after drinking, and that makes me sleep more soundly and I can avoid hangovers.

If a hangover was alcohol withdrawal, wouldn't benzos or other GABA-A drugs cause a similar hangover?

 

[jasperkent]

Subjectively, I feel like sleep deprivation is a major contributor to hangovers. I get nausea and shittiness feelings if I miss too much sleep that resembles a hangover. Furthermore, if I drink early and sober up before bed, I don't get a hangover. Finally, i will sometimes take 300-500 mg phenibut before bed after drinking, and that makes me sleep more soundly and I can avoid hangovers.

If a hangover was alcohol withdrawal, wouldn't benzos or other GABA-A drugs cause a similar hangover?

Yeah, a hangover is sleep deprivation + acetaldehyde toxicity + dehydration + erratic blood sugar levels + vitamin deficiency + inflammation of internal organs + all kinds of other physiological disruptions.

That's probably why it's so difficult to "cure" a hangover. Alcohol is nasty stuff.