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84% mdma?

severely etarded

severely etarded

Bluelight Crew
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I've seen this number thrown around ED but never seen a source or any logical reasoning behind this.

MDMA in it's purest consumable form is MDMA HCl

I have seen a few people mention the HCl somehow automatically makes it less pure, but that is simply false.

100 grams of 99% MDMA HCl is still 99 grams MDMA HCl


There is absolutely no reason from what I can see why a good chemist could not refine the MDMA HCl into purities above 90%, especially with industrial pharmaceutical equipment and good chemistry.

I am open to objections, but I would like to see a reference or at least some proper deductive reasoning before we make claims that 84% is somehow the highest.

Discuss.
 
The number refers to the proportion of the sample constituted by MDMA molecules. In MDMA HCl, there is one molecule of HCl (with a relative mass of 36.5) for every molecule of MDMA (with a relative mass of 193.25), and so if the salt is totally pure, 84% of it is MDMA.
 
But that has NO EFFECT on purity.

It shouldn't even be mentioned because it misleads people who don't understand it...

100mgs of "84% pure" MDMA HCL is 100mgs of MDMA. It is only impure if it has active or inactive cuts, hydrochloride is neither of those. Since ALL MDMA in in HCL form, all the doses for MDMA include that small 16% "impurity"



Good thread SE, let's clear this shit up. It's annoying.
 
Vader said:
The number refers to the proportion of the sample constituted by MDMA molecules. In MDMA HCl, there is one molecule of HCl (with a relative mass of 36.5) for every molecule of MDMA (with a relative mass of 193.25), and so if the salt is totally pure, 84% of it is MDMA.
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Folley said:
But that has NO EFFECT on purity.

It shouldn't even be mentioned because it misleads people who don't understand it...

100mgs of "84% pure" MDMA HCL is 100mgs of MDMA. It is only impure if it has active or inactive cuts, hydrochloride is neither of those.
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I understand this on a molecular level. MDMA HCl is a bound molecule, so 99% MDMA HCl is still 99% pure.

Saying it can only be 84% pure just sounds like somebody's trying to be a smartass. 99% pure MDMA HCl is still 99% pure MDMA in my book.

Obviously on a molecular level you have less than that of MDMA, however it's rather trivial to use the 84% number in discussion about molly purity. The finest MDMA is ALWAYS going to be pure MDMA HCl. The proper dosage is still going to refer to MDMA HCl, in it's purest form.
 
I agree, the 84% purity measurement thing is retarded. It stems from the weight of MDMA over the weight of the whole powder/crystal so with 100mg of pure MDMA.HCl you have 84mg MDMA and 16mg HCl. This is stupid because then you can have a different "max purity" for every salt of every drug, etc.

The hydrochloride is NOT an impurity, in fact it's NEEDED to make the MDMA into a salt and therefor water soluble so your body can actually use it. Really sick of people saying 84% is the maximum purity.
 
nanchan said:
I agree, the 84% purity measurement thing is retarded. It stems from the weight of MDMA over the weight of the whole powder/crystal so with 100mg of pure MDMA.HCl you have 84mg MDMA and 16mg HCl. This is stupid because then you can have a different "max purity" for every salt of every drug, etc.
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Ya that's what I'm getting at here. Theoretically 99% MDMA HCl is 99% pure, because the molecule is bound together. If the molecules were seperate in a solution, that would be different, but MDMA HCl is only one molecule. The HCl isn't it's own molecule, or an impurity. It's molecularly bound to the MDMA, making it essentially part of the MDMA molecule.

i.e. saying MDMA HCl is only 84% pure MDMA makes about as much sense as saying MDMA is 74% pure methamphetamine.
 
The molar mass of MDMA is 193.
The molar mass of MDMA.HCl is 229.
100X(193/229) = 84%

That's where the 84% myth comes from. It's all over the internet
 
so if a pill, lets say a white speaker comes back 200mg MDMA is that supposed to be 200mg of MDMA HCI?
 
Any MDMA you or anyone you know has ever seen in any form, pill or crystal, has been MDMA HCL.



The only way it could not be MDMA HCL, is if it was freebase MDMA, a liquid.
 
I think what blanch means is when they run it through the tests are they giving back the readings in mg of MDMA HCL or MDMA itself at the 84% molecule alone? Because if if they were only measuring MDMA as a stand-alone chemical, then 200mg would essentially be 238mg of MDMA HCL correct? Only 168mg of MDMA itself in that same 200mg reading, gauging that they're basing the mg including the HCL.

Any Europeans know for sure which standard they use in the test centers there? I've never really looked into what they measure for their findings.
 
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@ Blanch - I believe when the labs GC/MS the pills, it comes back as the total molecular mass of MDMA HCl.

If they didn't combine the molecular weight of the entire stable molecule, technically they could say 200 mg MDMA = 148 mg methamphetamine, 38 mg HCl (Hydrochloric Acid), and 14 mg CO2 (carbon dioxide).

Seems rather stupid to break down the whole molecule into smaller molecules IMO.

I'm not going to say MDMA is 74% methamphetamine. While the chemical may have a LOT of chemically similar structures, it's not 74% meth. That just seems silly. Once a chemical bond takes place, a rapid change in chemical properties typically occurs.
 
Folley said:
Any MDMA you or anyone you know has ever seen in any form, pill or crystal, has been MDMA HCL.



The only way it could not be MDMA HCl, is if it was freebase MDMA, a liquid.
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Actually you could dissolve MDMA HCl in water and make a liquid.

To be precise it would be MDMA HgCl2 oil, which is MERCURY based MDMA freebase oil. Basically fat soluble MDMA.

That's why nobody wants freebase oil MDMA. Mercury will fuck you up in all kinds of ways... Autism, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's... Just to name a few.
 
severely etarded said:
Actually you could dissolve MDMA HCl in water and make a liquid.

To be precise it would be MDMA HgCl2 oil, which is MERCURY based MDMA freebase oil. Basically fat soluble MDMA.

That's why nobody wants freebase oil MDMA. Mercury will fuck you up in all kinds of ways... Autism, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's... Just to name a few.
Click to expand...

Most of what you've said up until this was right, but where the heck did this come from? MDMA.HCl + water = mercury? Yes, I know the synthesis very well, but generally the mixture is washed of mercury very thoroughly, and if it was not washed thoroughly, the mercury is there regardless of whether or not you dissolve it in water.

The difference between freebase MDMA and MDMA.HCl salt is simple. MDMA and all other amphetAMINE derivatives are amines, which are bases. When bases react with an acid (HCl in the case of MDMA, generally), they accept a proton (H+). So MDMA becomes MDMA-H+, which then pairs ionically with the anion from the acid (Cl-), and thus you have MDMA.HCl. If you dissolve MDMA.HCl in water, all you have is H2O, MDMA-H+ ions, and Cl- ions. The water simply disrupts the electrostatic attraction between the oppositely charged ions. The same thing happens if you dissolve the powder in your mouth, or it happens in your stomach if you swallow a cap.

The whole 84% bit is, like someone said above, basically just people talking way above their pay grade. The generally accepted 120mg dose for MDMA really means 120mg of MDMA.HCl. So if someone has a capsule or pill that has 120mg of MDMA.HCl in it, they have exactly what they need if they want to take the generally accepted dose.

As for what exactly they are measuring in a lab with a GC/MS, both the GC and the MS instrument require vaporization of the sample. It is a lot easier to do this with the freebase than with the salt, because salts have far higher melting points and boiling points, so I would imagine that they are reporting mass of MDMA freebase. This is just speculation and deduction, though, I don't know this part for a fact as I don't work at one of these labs. It is also entirely possible that they are measuring mass of MDMA freebase, and then calculating the corresponding mass of MDMA.HCl that was originally in the pill and reporting that.
 
^ Yea I thought MDMA HgCl2 was the freebase form, and when you dissolve the HCl form in water, it makes a solution...

The comment was aimed at Folley's comment.

MDMA HgCl2 is not water soluble I believe. It is an organic mercury compound which would be soluble in fat, not water is what I was saying...

I've seen the 84% number thrown around a lot recently and I wanted to clarify some things. It's good we got some chemists in here :)
 
MDMA HgCl2 is not a real compound, at least not in the sense that you could have a vial or a pile of it. HgCl2 is another salt, mercuric chloride, which is used as a reducing agent in the reaction to make MDMA from MDP2P.

The freebase form just means the "free" "base". The amine is a base, and it is free because it is not "bound" up ionically the way it would be if it was reacted with an acid. If there is mercury in the final product in any way, someone failed badly.
 
If the molecules were seperate in a solution, that would be different, but MDMA HCl is only one molecule. The HCl isn't it's own molecule, or an impurity. It's molecularly bound to the MDMA, making it essentially part of the MDMA molecule.
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se, you've not really understood what's going on here. MDMA HCl isn't a molecule, it's an ionic compound. It isn't "essentially part of the MDMA molecule".
Any MDMA you or anyone you know has ever seen in any form, pill or crystal, has been MDMA HCL.



The only way it could not be MDMA HCL, is if it was freebase MDMA, a liquid.
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This isn't true, there are many other possible salts of MDMA.
 
wow i'm learning all sorts of new stuff. And I'm stoned out of my fucking gourd. Just like chemistry class all over again lol.
 
Vader said:
se, you've not really understood what's going on here. MDMA HCl isn't a molecule, it's an ionic compound. It isn't "essentially part of the MDMA molecule".
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no i understand exactly what a chemical bond is... and yes it forms ONE molecule. MDMA HCl s a chemically bonded molecule. Whats your point?

I think i explained it clearly in all the other posts...
 
Molecules are made of a set of atoms that are all covalently bonded to each other. Each molecule is identical to all others of the same type, and completely distinct from them. Covalent bonds are pretty hard to break and require specific conditions/chemistry to do so.

Ionic compounds are only held together by electrostatic interactions (opposite charges). They form a crystal lattice, which is made up of a repeating pattern of cation or cations (+) and anion or anions (-). It is much less clear where one "piece" ends and the next begins. Crystals formed as a result of ionic bonds generally aren't referred to as molecules, because they aren't distinct, they are locked in this repeating pattern that contains many, many, many individual MDMA molecules. Ionic bonds are generally very easy to break, simply by dissolving.

So the difference between calling MDMA.HCl 84% MDMA and 16% HCl is that the MDMA-H+ and Cl- are ionically bonded to each other and thus easily separable without breaking any covalent bonds. To call MDMA X% methamphetamine and Y% something else would involve breaking covalent bonds and changing the identity of the main structure.
 
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