I swear there was a thread on this a while back, with a link to an actual study....but can anyone give any further information on the effects of a caloric surplus from overconsumption of protein and its effects on both adipose tissue gain (will being in a caloric surplus as a result of excessive protein cause the protein to be stored as fat) and remaining in a state of ketosis?
Just discussing with a mate, and I'm unsure of what I've read in the past. My understanding was that protein is too difficult to be converted into glycogen (or whatever energy source), and as a result excess protein will be pissed out rather than being used for energy or stored as fat (which I would think requires conversion to glycogen?).
Note - I really have no fkn idea hey hahaha
How I understand it:
Protein or rather broken down proteins (glucogenic amino acids) amino acids that can be converted into glucose through gluconeogenesis. IE: Can be synthesised into glucose and glycogen via pyruvate... These are: Glycine, Serine, Valine, Histidine, Arginine, Cysteine, Proline, Alanine, Glutamate, Glutamine, Aspartate, Asparagine, Methionine...
This is in contrast to the ketogenic amino acids, which are converted into ketone bodies.. leucine, lysine...
Just to confuse: Five amino acids are both ketogenic and glucogenic: isoleucine, phenylalanine, tryptophan, tyrosine, threonine...
Glycerol from fats can be converted to pyruvate and thus glucose and glycogen..... But long chain fatty acids can't convert to pyruvate via acetyl-CoA....
From our new moderator pharmbiak:
A ketogenic diet is very difficult to gain muscle mass on. Simply put, you'll be keeping your protein quite high (around 1 gram per pound of body weight) which under normal circumstances would fulfill requirements for stable protein synthesis (how you build/maintain muscle mass). However, when you throw your body into a ketotic state, this doesn’t hold true. To actually understand why this is, we’ve got to do a little biochemistry/cellular metabolism legwork.
On a diet that isn't carbohydrate restricted, your body undergoes glycolysis - the oxidation metabolism of glucose molecules into adenosine triphosphate (ATP - energy) and pyruvate which fuels the citric acid cycle (TCA cycle). Glycolysis can be broken down into two stages which are anaerobic and yield very little ATP: First, glucose is converted to glucose 6-phosphate, which is converted to fructose 6-phosphate, which is converted into fructose 1,6-bisphosphate, which is finally converted into two phosphoglyceraldehyde (PGAL) molecules. This first process requires 2 ATP's and yields none. In the second process which also requires two ATP's, the two PGAL molecules are converted into pyruvate; four ATP's and two NADH's are created in the process. Therefore, the total net yield of ATP from glycolysis is two molecules. In the grand scheme of things, this is a tiny amount.
Okay so now that that's out of the way, let's take a look at those two pyruvate molecules. Those will be converted to Acetyl-CoA, which then generates 2 more NADH's and 2 molecules of CO2 per each pyruvate. The Acetyl-CoA can now undergo TCA cycle. Skipping a whole bunch of conversions, at the end of TCA cycle, we’re left with six NADH’s per three Acetyl-CoA, FADH2 and two ATP per 1 Acetyl-CoA, and four CO2 per two Acetyl-CoA. All of this brings the total for the oxidation of pyruvate and TCA cycle to eight NADH, two FADH2, two ATP, and six CO2.
From here, we go to the electron transport chain where NADH and FADH2 are broken down thereby pumping H+ ions through ATP synthase into the outer compartment of the mitochondria. This creates a gradient that is used to produce the majority of our ATP – approximately 32. Combined with glycolysis and TCA cycle, the final amount of ATP generated is roughly 36 molecules.
Using carbohydrates to fuel glycolysis, TCA cycle, and the electron transport chain to generate ATP is the body's preferred method of producing energy because this is the most energy efficient method available (plain and simple, carbohydrates are easy to break down into glucose, which as we just saw, is the fundamental molecule necessary for energy production.
However, due to your extremely low carbohydrate intake (true ketogenic diets assume a net intake of less than 50 grams of carbs/day) your body will begin breaking down the amino acids normally used for protein synthesis, (either from the protein you're ingesting, or from your muscles) and start using it to make glucose (gluconeogenesis). The only amino acids that can’t be use during this process are leucine and lysine as these can only be utilized to synthesize fatty acids. In addition to this process, the body will begin increasing the rate of lipolysis (this is the major upside of a ketogenic diet) wherein a triacylglycerol (fat) molecule is cleaved to provide 3 fatty acid chains and 1 glycerol molecule. Via beta-oxidation, which gives us Acetyl-CoA, these fatty acids can be used by most body tissues as an alternative source of energy (remember, Acetyl-CoA is what drives TCA cycle and subsequently, the electron transport chain).
Here’s where things get interesting. The brain cannot use long-chain fatty acids for energy because they are completely albumin-bound and as such, cannot cross the blood-brain barrier (only some medium chain fatty acids cross the BBB, but this is generally not sufficient enough to provide adequate energy for the brain). Therefore, any carbohydrates that you do intake will be automatically shunted towards providing energy for the brain and be broken down into glucose. Why’s this bad for muscle growth? Well, for one this means that the glycogen stores in your muscles will become depleted very quickly (usually within a few days), and two, your body will being to rely heavily on the urea cycle (the breakdown of amino acids) and also lipolysis for energy stores. All of these factors result in a large net decrease in the rate of amino acid (protein) synthesis, especially true in skeletal muscle tissue. Not only does this inhibit muscle hypertrophy and increase rate of catabolism, but it also makes the body more acidic (fyi, some enzymes – enzymes catalyze reactions, some of which are catabolic – operate more efficiently in an acidic environment) due to an increase in nitrogen content in the body (the result of large scale breakdown of amino (NH2) acids) which together with CO2 forms urea. Everyone loves gout, right? Finally, your insulin levels will plummet pretty low. Insulin is released in response to carbohydrate ingestion and it is the most anabolic hormone known to man. Without it, it’s definitely going to be nearly impossible to grow.
Long story short, if you’re looking primarily for fat-loss, a ketogenic diet is a great method to employ. However, if you’re looking to gain muscle mass, a ketogenic diet can be your biggest enemy; at best you can expect to maybe maintain your muscle mass, but this is for the few genetically gifted individuals among us. Ask anyone that’s run a ketogenic diet and they will tell you that without the aid of AAS or GH peptides, they lost muscle mass. Your best bet is to eat a clean and well balanced diet and actually up your carbohydrate intake. If you’re worried about gaining fat, just limit your carbs to low glycemic index carbs (keeping your insulin spikes pretty low) and aim for a small calorie surplus. After all, science aside, simple math will tell you that you’ve got to have more calories going in than what you’re burning every day or you’re going to end up with a net loss. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but building muscle mass (truly building mass) and losing fat at the same time is nearly impossible without any aid of some sort.
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/741721-could-you-grow-on-a-ketogenic-diet
I did read that post of pharmbiak's, but I think it's just a little too technical for me to follow 
