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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

Stimulants Heart failure and stims

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Specified

Specified

Ex-Bluelighter
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Sep 7, 2017
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Quick question

Are stimulants safe to take if I suffer from heart failure?

Thanks
 
If I were you I would not tread these waters. Stims are going to fuck you up bad if you have heart problems, best to find a different type drug if that is the path you want to take.
 
There is definitely a very real risk. A few years ago my family started getting cannabis from a young guy in his early 30s I believe who seemed perfectly healthy and just a typical happy guy who supposedly got (back?) into using stimulants when hanging out with some new people he met after a while and died of a heart attack not long later. Don't take this as medical advice but as far as I know using stimulants with heart problems is actually more of a health risk than even "overdosing" on them a lot of the time because a lot of them are hard to just truly take too much of at once, but they already fuck with the cardiovascular system at regular dosages.
 
Are you on any medicine to treat the heart failure?
As people already said, it feels incredibly dangerous to use stims after such a condition but if you do, I'd strongly recommend to use something like a beta blocker and to remain within therapeutic dosages, NEVER do just a dosage somebody recommend, always taper yourself up from very low and check your vital signs. Low doses of amph/meth/etc are nice on their own.
I am using propranolol because of tachycardia after what might have been a light infarct (I collapsed after re-dosing deschloroketamine, ridiculous dosages and it was probably contaminated by something with vasoconstrictive effects) and it brings my resting bpm down from 100+ to ~70, this can save you a lot of strain to the circulation and heart.

Which brings me to another question, are beta blockers safe to combine with stims? Idk. Some say there's the risk of excessive vasoconstriction from unopposed alpha agonism and indeed does BB+stim give me cold extremities but it's listed as a side effect so not sure how related this is. I've known somebody (girl, maybe 50kg) who was prescribed 150mg/d d-amph and propranolol to protect her heart.. needlessly to say that she got complications but not from the beta blocker.
 
plumbus-nine said:
I collapsed after re-dosing deschloroketamine, ridiculous dosages and it was probably contaminated by something with vasoconstrictive effects
Click to expand...

I can't answer your other question but just wanted to say that could have been from the deschloroketamine itself if the dosages were truly that ridiculous. NMDA receptor antagonists can cause vasoconstriction too although I don't think it's considered to be very much compared to something like stimulants.
 
Kaleida said:
I can't answer your other question but just wanted to say that could have been from the deschloroketamine itself if the dosages were truly that ridiculous. NMDA receptor antagonists can cause vasoconstriction too although I don't think it's considered to be very much compared to something like stimulants.
Click to expand...
Well I stopped measuring and eyeballed, from what I bought and how long it lasted I must have used up to 1g/d with several redoses, so maybe 150mg per dose intranasal but given its long half life it will have cumulated. Needless to say that I was addicted to it.
But the vasoconstrictive effects disappeared with another batch so I think it was contamination. It hit me quite badly.

Interesting tho that NMDA antagonists are vasoconstrictive. Never learned out. Do you have a source for to read more?
 
plumbus-nine said:
Well I stopped measuring and eyeballed, from what I bought and how long it lasted I must have used up to 1g/d with several redoses, so maybe 150mg per dose intranasal but given its long half life it will have cumulated. Needless to say that I was addicted to it.
But the vasoconstrictive effects disappeared with another batch so I think it was contamination. It hit me quite badly.

Interesting tho that NMDA antagonists are vasoconstrictive. Never learned out. Do you have a source for to read more?
Click to expand...

Wow, that does sound like a lot. It's not something I've researched heavily so the articles I might have found it in don't immediately come to mind but I know I've read stuff like that from time to time. I just did a quick search to see if I could pull something up and I did find this:

The cardiovascular effects of ketamine used for induction of anaesthesia in patients with valvular heart disease
The effects of induction of anaesthesia by ketamine 2 mg- kg-1 were studied in six patients with valvular heart disease before tracheal intubation and operation. Cardiac index was unaffected because a mean decrease in stroke index was compensated for by a mean increase in heart rate. A significant increase was found in mean arterial pressure, pulmonary arterial mean pressure, pulmonary capillary wedge pressure and central venous pressure. Systemic vascular resistance increased, but not significantly, whereas pulmonary vascular resistance increased significantly by more than 150 per cent. Right ventricular minute work index increased in all patients, and the increase was as much as 400 per cent. Left ventricular minute work index increased in four of the six patients, but the magnitude of the increase was not so marked. It is therefore concluded that ketamine causes pronounced pulmonary vasoconstriction and an undesirable strain on the myocardium. Such effects could prove deleterious in patients with limited functional reserve of the right ventricle.
Click to expand...

This study is from the '70s so not exactly up-to-date but it was done on human patients with heart problems so that's something.
 
nznity said:
Nope, it's pretty detrimental even for ppl with normal heart conditions.
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I'd say it heavily depends on the dosage, specific stim used and the individual. Some use pretty high doses of methylphenidate without getting much increase in BPM or pressure while for others the lowest 18mg Concerta is already uncomfortably speedy. When we're talking about usual recreational dosages then the answer is obvious but how is it about the safety of therapeutic dosages in persons with heart problems?
 
plumbus-nine said:
I'd say it heavily depends on the dosage, specific stim used and the individual. Some use pretty high doses of methylphenidate without getting much increase in BPM or pressure while for others the lowest 18mg Concerta is already uncomfortably speedy. When we're talking about usual recreational dosages then the answer is obvious but how is it about the safety of therapeutic dosages in persons with heart problems?
Click to expand...
Iunno man. To be honest, using stimulants is a fucking Russian roulette. I've personally met old dudes in rehab(from late 40s-late 50's) that used cocaine pretty heavily for 20+ years and were "healthy". Also I've met a couple ppl in their 20s-early 30s that died from a heart attack. Then I have a friend who was 18 when he had a heart attack after leaving the casino and lighting a cigarette, he did like 5g throughout the whole night. I've abused cocaine at different stages throughout my 20s( heavy inhaling, crack smoking and banging blow) and my heart is fine I think. U never fucking know.
 
Yeah, it's Russian roulette and for sure one of the least recommendable things to do stims after a heart condition but I think maybe somebody still decides to do it (I myself wouldn't have thought twice about doing whatever chem I wanted during my hardcore addiction time, even said incident didn't keep me from finishing the stash and re-ordering) then harm reduction advice is the best we can do. Beta blockers certainly alleviate the strain on the heart, maybe specially Nebivolol because it causes additional vasodilation in the heart. Or just recently learned that calcium channel antagonists not just lower blood pressure but also the heartbeat rate. Maybe such one is better.
 
Also try out some kefir, it literally has 0 disadvantage. I was also indentified as tachycardic once when I was little now and then it happens so far no heart attacks, hopefully if I ever get one my hope is that I am with someone around. This is a dark thought because it is not only seems, if you ever heart arest and no one calls ambulance you can die for good. Kefir if I am to think twice might be God's elixir.
 
plumbus-nine said:
Are you on any medicine to treat the heart failure?
As people already said, it feels incredibly dangerous to use stims after such a condition but if you do, I'd strongly recommend to use something like a beta blocker and to remain within therapeutic dosages, NEVER do just a dosage somebody recommend, always taper yourself up from very low and check your vital signs. Low doses of amph/meth/etc are nice on their own.
I am using propranolol because of tachycardia after what might have been a light infarct (I collapsed after re-dosing deschloroketamine, ridiculous dosages and it was probably contaminated by something with vasoconstrictive effects) and it brings my resting bpm down from 100+ to ~70, this can save you a lot of strain to the circulation and heart.

Which brings me to another question, are beta blockers safe to combine with stims? Idk. Some say there's the risk of excessive vasoconstriction from unopposed alpha agonism and indeed does BB+stim give me cold extremities but it's listed as a side effect so not sure how related this is. I've known somebody (girl, maybe 50kg) who was prescribed 150mg/d d-amph and propranolol to protect her heart.. needlessly to say that she got complications but not from the beta blocker.
Click to expand...
Yes I'm on bisoprolol
 
Specified said:
So maybe I could get away with taking half a point of shard?
Click to expand...
Nobody can advise on dosage in such a scenario. The variability in your individual physiology and the quality/ composition of your ‘shard’ make it a crap shoot.

The clearest advise is that you would be engaging in ‘seriously risky to pointlessly risky’ behaviour especially if you do not yet have a stimulant dependency making it difficult to not take stims.
 
On the question of beta-blockers and stims…

Even many ER doctors believe that beta-blockers are contraindicated for cocaine intoxification due to increased risk of cardiac damage . However most recent research suggests this is not the case.

www.amjmed.com

Clinical Outcomes After Treatment of Cocaine-Induced Chest Pain with Beta-Blockers: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis

Recent guidelines have suggested avoiding beta-blockers in the setting of cocaine-associated acute coronary syndrome. However, the available evidence is both scarce and conflicted. The purpose of this systematic review and meta-analysis is to investigate the evidence pertaining to the use of...
www.amjmed.com
 
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