Opioids Kratom Megathread V.6

[Max Flight]

I live on the Big Island of Hawaii. I guess that I should mention that we also grow coffee here... a lot of high quality cannabis as well. I have even grown some nice poppy flowers. Most things grow pretty well here.

 

[Scrofula]

I mentioned tobacco because it contains nicotine, which were it not addictive, would be a first-rate nootropic and treatment for Alzheimer's and dementia.

Sort of like kratom, which contains mitragynine, which agonizes u-opioid receptors, making it addictive; with the sole role (so far) of helping with addiction to more socially harmful opioid addictions. By itself, a potential mild-intoxicating product, with strong built-in reinforcement.

Kratom is doomed, one way or another, to intense regulations. Even in Canada.

Members on this board alone probably count for a billion dollars a month in use (OK, not nearly, but still). I'd bet Kraft or Johnson&Johnson is already pitching strategies. RJ Reynolds, purveyor of Camels and Kratoms. They'd get the ATF to make sure no one grows it anywhere.

The only alternative, is Roche or Pfizer bringing the new Subu-Krats to the FDA first. Making mitragynine schedule II, and nary a kratom shrub to be found in the USA.

One or the other.

I don't really have a point, I'm just a cynic.



(You're Canadian Hawaiian, Max, maybe you aren't aware that oleanders line the highway medians across all of California--their poison is actually a kind of tweaker- and especially crackhead attractant. I've had a lot of adventures living in the oleanders.)

 

[Max Flight]

Hey Scrofula. Yes, I partly grew up on the California, Arizona, Mexico border area. And I remember a couple kids at school almost died from the Oleander. I didn't realize that there was a desire for tweaker to use it though....sounds like a dangerous proposition. But, everyone has their own thing. I know a guy who actually liked Datura. lol A very unpleasant high from what I heard from a few others.

Yes, I can tell you likely have a cynical sense of humor. Which is cool with me. I don't really know if kratom could be grown on the mainland (U.S.) .? Maybe Florida. But it is easy to grow here in Hawaii. And unless you are specifically looking for it, and know exactly what you are looking for. It just looks like any number of other tropical foliage varieties in the area here.

 

[Max Flight]

So if it does go fully illegal, it'll still be around. Just like ayahuasca. People will just have to keep it on the DL.

 

[RDP89]

So if it does go fully illegal, it'll still be around. Just like ayahuasca. People will just have to keep it on the DL.

Ha, yeah just like every illegal substance, they're still all over the place. Which is why prohibition is so fuckin futile. They haven't stemmed the tide of flow of drugs, just given criminal organizations a huge source of revenue, and locked millions of good people up over the years simply for being users. And especially with the dark net now, most illegal substances are at the click of a mouse able to be delivered right to your mailbox.

 

[RDP89]

I mentioned tobacco because it contains nicotine, which were it not addictive, would be a first-rate nootropic and treatment for Alzheimer's and dementia.
)

What do you mean it would be if it weren't addictive? It can be used that way now, and I don't see how it being addictive makes a difference in that. Do you mean pharma would actually market it as such if it weren't so addictive??

 

[Scrofula]

What do you mean it would be if it weren't addictive? It can be used that way now, and I don't see how it being addictive makes a difference in that. Do you mean pharma would actually market it as such if it weren't so addictive??

The only reason it isn't in the pharmacy as "Nicon-Aid!" is that fifty years of smoking let the FDA know its abuse potential. That and bad PR means pharma tries for cotinine or anatabine, the first a metabolite of nicotine that was tried as an antidepressant, and the second a minor related alkaloid of tobacco trying to make it as a supplement.

There's a lot of "don't give Nana a nicotine patch!" stuff blocking development, even though it might really help her.

(We all know my alma-mater Roche wouldn't hesitate to bring a highly addictive drug to market)

 

[DH888]

Sorry if this has already been asked ad I didn't read the whole thread. But are there any bad interactions with kratom and benzodiazepines and SSRIs? I am prescribed these for anxiety but really want to try kratom for my sciatica.

 

[Max Flight]

I also take 10mg Valium for anxiety, and have not had any problems. I read somewhere (probably here someplace) about a year ago, that there was no issues combining benzos and kratom. And I have had none myself. I have not ever heard of anyone else having any issues....so I am going to assume that it's safe.

 

[Scrofula]

The latest paper on pubmed (not even in stores yet!) says this:

Kratom exerts opioid and α-2 receptor agonistic effects as well as antiinflammatory and parasympathetic-impeding effects. There are no published human pharmacologic, pharmacokinetic, or drug interaction studies on kratom or mitragynine, making it virtually impossible to fully understand kratom's therapeutic potential and risks and the populations most likely to benefit or experience harm from its use.

link to abstract, probably paywall

That was published six weeks ago. So opioid effects are I think a bit familiar to posters here, alpha2 agonists are actually downers, like clonidine; Parasympathetic-impeding could mean anti-cholinergic, which makes your eyes red and your mouth dry on diphenhydramine and weed.

So combine Vicodin, clonidine, a Benadryl and some more APAP--a sort of Bluelight Tea Time cucumber sandwich of drug combos. But who knows what's been added to the mayo and lurks, waiting to build up and strike you down with compensatory hypogonadism. No, that part's just ibuprofen.

The review mentions over twenty active alkaloids, thirty-six confirmed deaths in the US, and plenty of evidence for dependence and withdrawal.

 

[Max Flight]

I now know, as I have experienced it before. That extended kratom use, can cause pyshical dependancy. I was out of state for a couple of months, and stuck on a large cannabis cultivation operation. Things didn't work out the way I was told they were going to. And I was without my pain meds for over 3 weeks. It did help to have access to unlimited quantity of cannabis; edibles, extracts, etc... high doses of THC/CBD. But I had to use kratom as well, for 3 weeks.

And I started to get to the point I was needing kratom, to take away the chills and that cringe feeling. So kratom is not to be taken lightly. Although, the withdrawal wasn't nearly as bad as from opiates or benzos...I was also taking it for a relatively short period. I imagine that they could be worse with prolonged use.

And, as Scrofula has pointed out....there's not really much clinical research data available on kratom. So, I guess that nobody really knows for certain what possible interactions to expect.? In my personal situation, I have taken Valium in conjunction with kratom, and had no noticeable negative effects.

 

[DH888]

Thanks for the info guys! I just have a random question; besides the obvious reasons people take kratom (pain relief, anxiety help, opiate addiction, etc), why do people take it? Does it really make you feel that good?

 

[Pickledlemons]

^ yeah... it can be very euphoric in my experience, even with a large opiate tolerance.

 

[Scrofula]

Thanks for the info guys! I just have a random question; besides the obvious reasons people take kratom (pain relief, anxiety help, opiate addiction, etc), why do people take it? Does it really make you feel that good?

I'd ask a few more users before you run off with Mr. Pickledlemons extra-sour endorsement.

I don't know your drug of choice, but kratom doesn't appear to be any different in terms of causing dependence. It's not a refreshing elixir of harmless mild intoxication.

 

[Pickledlemons]

I didnt mean to downplay the risks. It is still addictive.

 

[Max Flight]

^ yeah... it can be very euphoric in my experience, even with a large opiate tolerance.

I can second this sentiment. I also have a very high tolerance to opiate of any kind. And though I have not used kratom solely for the purpose of its euphoric effects...I have only used it when the chips are down, and I am battling withdrawals. I notice that at a fairly good dose of kratom for the particular severity of the withdrawals at the time ( I start with higher doses of 8-10 grams, working down to 3-4 grams)....I do get a euphoric feeling, comparable to oxycodone, because it's kinda energetic. Often times it's a short lived euphoria, although there have been times it can last as long as 5 hours. I think that this might be related to the inconsistencies in quality prevalent in much of the kratom being sold. I have only found a couple ultra reliable sources, pertaining to the source and actually variety of kratom I'm getting. One guy lives down the road, is the green variety, grown in Hawaii. The other guy gets it from relatives in Bali. The quality is consistent. Other sources, not so much it seems.

But I do find it to have euphoric properties. Although, I have never taken it for this purpose. I am usually so stoned on kind buds and assorted hash...I have never found the need.

 

[Forever Changes]

Kratom was banned here in the UK last year, even though there wasn't a single recorded case of OD/fatality, and nobody in government had even heard of it. Didn't matter. They still banned it along with every other concievable 'legal high' you can think of (except for good old booze of course - can't let the MPs go without that)

it was a kneejerk reaction to tabloid scaremongering stories and general misinformation and incompetence. I'd used Kratom happily for many years without problems. Then some ignorant politicians decided to take it away from me and many other satisified users, thus tempting people onto harder, illicit drugs - or back to glorious alcohol

Last I heard Americans were facing a potential kratom ban too, but I think it's been postponed at least. But TPTB have their guns out for it. Strange this is at the same time when many states are decriminalising Cannabis. But there's no sign of that happening in the UK, even though police bascially turn a blind eye to cannabis possession. Drug laws are SO fucked up 8(

 

[Slow_Mobius]

IME kratom isn't nearly as euphoric as oxycodone, but I think kratom is a better analgesic. I have a low tolerance though. I usually only take a couple grams at a time, so I can't imagine taking 10+ in a single dose

 

[Slow_Mobius]

Kratom was banned here in the UK last year, even though there wasn't a single recorded case of OD/fatality, and nobody in government had even heard of it. Didn't matter. They still banned it along with every other concievable 'legal high' you can think of (except for good old booze of course - can't let the MPs go without that)

it was a kneejerk reaction to tabloid scaremongering stories and general misinformation and incompetence. I'd used Kratom happily for many years without problems. Then some ignorant politicians decided to take it away from me and many other satisified users, thus tempting people onto harder, illicit drugs - or back to glorious alcohol

Last I heard Americans were facing a potential kratom ban too, but I think it's been postponed at least. But TPTB have their guns out for it. Strange this is at the same time when many states are decriminalising Cannabis. But there's no sign of that happening in the UK, even though police bascially turn a blind eye to cannabis possession. Drug laws are SO fucked up 8(

States had tried passing legalization laws for many years, but they always failed. People think that legalizing drugs will turn society into a depraved mess of uncontrollable drug addicts and that their kids will die from overdoses. People are fucking brain washed by the Reagan era drug crusades. Colorado did us all a huge favor by showing legalization not only kept society churning, but it created surpluses in tax revenue. Now people all over the country have made a 180 degree turn on their views on legalization.

With other drugs, it's another story. I'm afraid people can't grasp the stupidity of our war on drugs. Trump just said in his state of the union address that hes cracking down harder on drugs. We're stuck in pandemonium mode for anything tied to the words "illicit drug" that isn't cannabis.

 

[Scrofula]

Any argument you hear in favor of prohibition, just swap in cigarettes or alcohol. Chances are, damage to health or society is less with whatever's prohibited.

Governments gave us the controls for prohibiton experiments already. Doses do not escalate forever. Not every user is an addict. Fun responsible use of even the most dangerous drug is possible, by the majority of the population.

(Not that we'd ever promote fun drug time having in OD, in between heroic HR sessions.)