Gnostic Christianity MEGATHREAD

[AddictRecon]

When I read A Course in Miracles which was written by Jesus

I have no clue what you are talking about.. there is no 'course in miracles' written by Jesus Christ. There is no 'Aquarian Gospel' either, the synoptic gospels are Matthew, Mark, and Luke, with the fourth Gospel account of John.

You might be into some newage stuff, but that has nothing to do with Christianity.

 

[vortech]

What about the Gospel of Thomas? That is some potent stuff right there! It may be non-canonical, but it speaks more strongly to me than much of the NT.

 

[AddictRecon]

What about the Gospel of Thomas? That is some potent stuff right there! It may be non-canonical, but it speaks more strongly to me than much of the NT.

The Gospel of Thomas is widely recognized as a fake, and what it teaches is antithetical to Christianity. In fact, most would say its the first attempt to discredit Christianity. Fortunately, the early Church leaders recognized it as a fraudulent attempt to poison Christianity. Gnosticism is antithetical to Christianity, and it shares the same status as any other cult mentality in our view.

Bart Ehrman argues the Gospel of Thomas is a 2^nd Century Gnostic text based on the lack of any reference to the coming Kingdom of God and return of Jesus. The earliest leaders of the Church also recognized the Gospel of Thomas was a late, inauthentic, heretical work. Hipploytus identified it as a fake and a heresy in “Refutation of All Heresies” (222-235AD), Origen referred to it in a similar way in a homily (written around 233AD), Eusebius resoundingly rejected it as an absurd, impious and heretical “fiction” in the third book of his “Church History” (written prior to 326AD), Cyril advised his followers to avoid the text as heretical in his “Catechesis” (347-348AD), and Pope Gelasius included the Gospel of Thomas in his list of heretical books in the 5th century. (J. Warner Wallace)

 

[Jabberwocky]

You're clearly non interested in engaging in a friendly debate with me on this topic. You restate my own perspective and admissions as non-existent when I've taken the time to frame it very clearly and you restate your own as being representative of Christianity and you ignore any challenge at the scripture level. I'm not interested in continuing this discussion but thanks again

Spent years reading A Course in Miracles, which I know, I know, is blasphemous, but that Christ is a shining example of love and forgiveness. Thanks again for the quotes and stuff.

Here's a few I like:

I have no clue what those quotes are from, but Jesus never said any of that..

That's why I'm not Christian. Still love Christ though.

You might be into some newage stuff, but that has nothing to do with Christianity.

There can be no mistake, from an internal critique of the canonical books of the OT and NT, Jesus Christ is God the Father, YHVH incarnate, and one really only needs one verse to prove this (Isa 9:6) but I could cite scriptural evidences ad nauseam.

I looked up Isa 9:6, and well there is the whole mistranslation to contend with relating to el Gibbor, which if honestly considered, well, it casts a shadow of doubt on your claim. Ask a Jew or a Muslim and they'll give you a different explanation for what that quote means so not sure what to make of that.

silence

 

[RDP89]

I'm not an expert on prayers for sick and suffering children. I mean, I've heard of sick and suffering children going to faith healers and experiencing healings. That's a thing right. Happens everyday. Not sure if you believe it or not. That said, I agree with you that there have been prayers for sick and suffering children that went unanswered. Not sure why but theres a big picture I can't fully see. You'd have to get to the bottom of that yourself with a little research. Personally, I'm happy for my sister and find comparisons of worthiness to receive the benefits of prayer to be a bit reactionary.

I'm just saying, if you believe that god answers prayers, how do you explain that people prayed for people to be healed, but they still suffered on anyway? god is picking and choosing who to help by this line of thinking. Also, if you believe god created everything, then isn't "god " responsible for their suffering in the first place??

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'm just saying, if you believe that god answers prayers, how do you explain that people prayed for people to be healed, but they still suffered on anyway? god is picking and choosing who to help by this line of thinking. Also, if you believe god created everything, then isn't "god " responsible for their suffering in the first place??

Just so we're clear, my perspective is not a Christian one. I do believe in Christ as I've already stated. Let me share how I see things. God is not interventionist. We have free will. It is the most sacred and abused aspect of our existence as it appears now. God isn't going around picking and choosing who lives and dies in my narrative. After the separation from God we were given all the tools to return back to God. There are many agendas at play that do not want this to happen. I can't answer your question specifically because each person is a multidimensional consciousness existing in many realities simultaneously. I'm not sensitive enough to see that picture. Some people are or can work with other beings that are. I've met them and interacted with them. They can hone in on blockages at any level. If prayer is not having the desired effect there is a reason for it. Doesn't mean I know what it is. There are people out there that can find out though.

 

[RDP89]

If God is not an interventionist, doesn't that make prayer completely pointless?(other than as a psychological tool to help one feel better) And if God doesn't intervene, then how did god take away your sister's nicotine addiction?

 

[swilow]

So essentially, you think Jesus, who claims the authority of and submission to the God of the OT, should be "vehemently criticized for supporting this monster".

But in the same breath you say Jesus is a great guy.

Care to explain?

Does Jesus claim to support that tyrant though and its beliefs? His teachings are quite different. I guess I was being generous, for me I totally disregard Jesus and the OT god too. Its simpler.

You seem to imagine that your truth is the only truth. Hence, you continually have people here actively cease discussion with you because there is really no wiggle room in your views. Its like talking to a brick wall. You don't wish to discuss but impose your certainty on others. Its pretty tiresome. Here's a thought; maybe you're wrong? Maybe you've been tricked into supporting an evil god. If its the OT god, you are supporting petty evil.

The OT god seems remarkably jealousy and childish, with intensely human concerns. It makes me think this god is really just a construct of humans.

 

[Jabberwocky]

My sister prayed to Jesus Christ, son of God. I'm not aligned with the Christian perspective outlined here that God and Christ are entirely interchangeable. In a sense Christ is God, but Christ did not create God. With that prayer she accomplished a number of things 1) she set her free will to a clearly stated goal. 2) she opened herself up to receive the the help of Christ and all forces aligned with Christ be they angels, guides, guardians, ascended masters, etc, etc who look after humanity while respecting free will 3) she called upon one who can dispel darkness. It's a powerful act. You don't have to believe it but that's how I understand it. I'm not the only one saying stuff like this BTW. We're not alone. We have a whole support system. Prayer is the medium by which we express this.

 

[AddictRecon]

Does Jesus claim to support that tyrant though and its beliefs? His teachings are quite different. I guess I was being generous, for me I totally disregard Jesus and the OT god too. Its simpler.

You seem to imagine that your truth is the only truth. Hence, you continually have people here actively cease discussion with you because there is really no wiggle room in your views. Its like talking to a brick wall. You don't wish to discuss but impose your certainty on others. Its pretty tiresome. Here's a thought; maybe you're wrong? Maybe you've been tricked into supporting an evil god. If its the OT god, you are supporting petty evil.

The OT god seems remarkably jealousy and childish, with intensely human concerns. It makes me think this god is really just a construct of humans.

Jesus incarnated through the line of David, meaning He was a Jew in observance of the torah, or law of YHVH, more importantly, Jesus also gives praise, glory and honor to YHVH as the only living God, so according to your statement, you should have nothing but criticism for Christ. Most of what Christ teaches is found in the OT, but you have to invest time and study to know this, otherwise you have an incomplete view of the biblical canon.

There is only one truth that all truth is contingent on, so to be specific, and I am not lying, yes, I know the Truth, and that Truth is Christ Jesus, the foundation of our reality. That doesnt mean there arent other truths, just that there are no truths that exist that challenge this fundamental Truth and that fundamental Truth, is Christ. As to whether Im wrong or not, I obviously do not believe I am, nor do I have a reason to think I am, the evidence of what Christ does in my life is that profound, to think I could be wrong would be contrary to my faith. Thats like saying the sun might not actually rise in the morning. I have faith the sun will rise and no reason to think it wont.

But something you should have noticed about me.. I never claim to be able to prove anything to anyone, Im here sharing my understanding. While Im certainly not the only one here expressing my 'truth', Ive noticed alot of others here doing the same, yet its only a problem when I do, specifically on the topic of Jesus, which I find interesting.

I used to have alot of the same hostile views towards the bible, and even less nice things to say about Jesus, you guys are actually pretty nice compared to the person I was, but that was before Christ made the impact on my life that he did, I used to call Christians close minded, but it was me who was close minded. I think alot of Christians are arrogantly attacking people who dont believe as they do, which makes my life a bit harder because when I do share my understanding of Christ, its with people who have been victimized by bad examples of Christians.

Talking about Christ here might net me some criticism, but I honestly have more 'enemies' in the pulpits, men who claim to follow Christ, but live otherwise..

 

[AddictRecon]

I'm just saying, if you believe that god answers prayers, how do you explain that people prayed for people to be healed, but they still suffered on anyway? god is picking and choosing who to help by this line of thinking. Also, if you believe god created everything, then isn't "god " responsible for their suffering in the first place??

Mar 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Mar 11:25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”

I think the problem with a lot of prayers is that they go unanswered because of lack of belief, which God requires, faith in Him, a show of trust.

Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
Jas 1:7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;

 

[theMerovingian]

Why did Pontius Pilate always pick up the bad and negative association as he did offer to the people who thus thy wish to crucify barabbas or jesus and they elected to crucify the son of the carpenter but did he not give the people the choice and they elected to save the murderer did they not ??

Well thats the feeling and association I get off the Roman Governor but he gave the option to the people and Jesus was one of the Jews but not of the high priest class so probably suffered from class antagonism than personal animosity.

Class warfare alive and well before the industrial age in late Antiquity. Maybe Marx was'nt all so wrong after all. Who Knows, I dont care cause thats the beauty is'nt it if something is suppossed to be answer but have so many holes in it's theory then what are you to believe ? I'm probably wrong but I'm like a dog chasing ball in the world if you get me. Thats the beauty.

Peace.

 

[AddictRecon]

You're clearly non interested in engaging in a friendly debate with me on this topic. You restate my own perspective and admissions as non-existent when I've taken the time to frame it very clearly and you restate your own as being representative of Christianity and you ignore any challenge at the scripture level. I'm not interested in continuing this discussion but thanks again

I didnt know you were trying to initiate a debate, did you have a premise you were willing to cite for? Throwing a bunch of quotes as counter points doesnt really tell me you are trying to debate me, Id rather have a cordial informal discussion.

But if you have a point, make it and Ill do my best to examine what it is.

 

[AddictRecon]

Why did Pontius Pilate always pick up the bad and negative association as he did offer to the people who thus thy wish to crucify barabbas or jesus and they elected to crucify the son of the carpenter but did he not give the people the choice and they elected to save the murderer did they not ??

Exactly, I place the motive for Christs death squarely on the Jews, Pilate was just the means to have it executed. Remember, the Pharisees wanted it to look like it was Pilates doing because it was the Passover and the jews who followed Christ would have revolted against the Pharisees for having Christ stoned to death, especially after they just named Christ the King, which was a direct challenge to the pharisees, who had control over public opinion for the most part, that is why they wanted Pilate to get involved. Pilate didnt want a revolt either, and his decree for Christs death would not be challenged, otherwise the jews would have to contend with the Roman authorities.

As far as why Pilate might be in trouble with God, He knew Christ was innocent and still allowed it to happen, knowing full well he could have stopped it entirely. Also, Pilates wife pleaded with him not to have anything to do with Christs crucifixion because she had some sort of dream, which the bible doesnt go into detail about.

Mat 27:19 Besides, while he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent word to him, “Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much because of him today in a dream.”

 

[psy997]

If God is not an interventionist, doesn't that make prayer completely pointless?(other than as a psychological tool to help one feel better) And if God doesn't intervene, then how did god take away your sister's nicotine addiction?

God isn't an interventionist when it comes to free will. However, this point matters not if you continue holding onto the idea of God as as preached by mainstream Christianity. That is an omnipotent, all powerful being, consciously watching over all we do. In that framework, the idea of God being interventionist makes sense. However, that is not what God is. God is a creative principle, God is a singularity that expanded and manifested into a million and one infinite ways of being, perceiving, and vibrating, moving, changing, and evolving. God is a force, and an energy, and the center of all that is - as is experienced by humans and by other sentient beings. In this framework, prayer is a tool with which one may connect to that which is within them, and ultimately that which is them. The divine light within is god, although we are not god him/itself. We are but a piece, and yet, we also hold the whole. All reflections and microcosms hold the entirety of the macrocosm. In this way prayer be used to consciously summon the divine creative principle and co-create, bringing into existence or possibility of existence what was before unthought of or deemed impossible.

Thus, the classic "If God is real, all loving, and all powerful, why does he allow suffering?" question is rendered obsolete, null, and void. It is to ask why man engages in self-destructive behaviors, why man hurts himself and others. There is an order, but this order does not have to be followed. It may be more harmonious to learn and live in this order, but it is not necessary nor is it forced. As levels mentioned, free will is one of the most basic tenets of this existence.

 

[AddictRecon]

Anyways, I looked up Isa 9:6, and well there is the whole mistranslation to contend with relating to el Gibbor, which if honestly considered, well, it casts a shadow of doubt on your claim. Ask a Jew or a Muslim and they'll give you a different explanation for what that quote means so not sure what to make of that.

Unless you are redefining words..

The hebrew "gibbôr gibbôr" or גִּבֹ גִּבּוֹר is defined as 'Powerful or by implication warrior, tyrant: - champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant man ' which is the descriptor for the following word 'êl or אֵל in the hebrew, which by definition is 'God' or deity.

Gibbor is a descriptor for how powerful "el" is.. nothing more. Claiming otherwise is not really a strong argument imo.. I have the hebrew in front of me and can readily translate it, verbatim.
Isa 9:6 לםרבה המשׂרה ולשׁלום אין־קץ על־כסא דוד ועל־ממלכתו להכין אתה ולסעדה במשׁפט ובצדקה מעתה ועד־עולם קנאת יהוה צבאות תעשׂה־זאת׃

Isiah prophesies of Christ elsewhere, in case there is any doubt.

The entire chapter of Isaiah 53 is about Christ and Isaiah 7:14.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

 

[theMerovingian]

Exactly, I place the motive for Christs death squarely on the Jews, Pilate was just the means to have it executed. Remember, the Pharisees wanted it to look like it was Pilates doing because it was the Passover and the jews who followed Christ would have revolted against the Pharisees for having Christ stoned to death, especially after they just named Christ the King, which was a direct challenge to the pharisees, who had control over public opinion for the most part, that is why they wanted Pilate to get involved. Pilate didnt want a revolt either, and his decree for Christs death would not be challenged, otherwise the jews would have to contend with the Roman authorities.

As far as why Pilate might be in trouble with God, He knew Christ was innocent and still allowed it to happen, knowing full well he could have stopped it entirely. Also, Pilates wife pleaded with him not to have anything to do with Christs crucifixion because she had some sort of dream, which the bible doesnt go into detail about.

Mat 27:19 Besides, while he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent word to him, “Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much because of him today in a dream.”

Agree mate. He had the power to stop it but gave it up to popular demand. Hardly surprising considering he would have being interested in keeping peace and social cohesion in a volatile region that the Romans knew too well of from previous experience.

 

[AddictRecon]

Agree mate. He had the power to stop it but gave it up to popular demand. Hardly surprising considering he would have being interested in keeping peace and social cohesion in a volatile region that the Romans knew too well of from previous experience.

yeah, Pilate would have also most likely gotten in trouble for 'not having control' of his region with his own superiors if there was a revolt, which I think was a factor. Ultimately, in 70ad, there was a revolt, and the huge Roman resources it took to destroy Jerusalem would not have been good for Pilates resume had it happened during his governorship, I could be wrong.

 

[AddictRecon]

It is to ask why man engages in self-destructive behaviors, why man hurts himself and others. There is an order, but this order does not have to be followed. It may be more harmonious to learn and live in this order, but it is not necessary nor is it forced. As levels mentioned, free will is one of the most basic tenets of this existence.

^^^ This is a fundamental teaching in Christian theology, we go a little farther, but you really hit the nail on the head with this observance.

 

[RDP89]

God isn't an interventionist when it comes to free will. However, this point matters not if you continue holding onto the idea of God as as preached by mainstream Christianity. That is an omnipotent, all powerful being, consciously watching over all we do. In that framework, the idea of God being interventionist makes sense. However, that is not what God is. God is a creative principle, God is a singularity that expanded and manifested into a million and one infinite ways of being, perceiving, and vibrating, moving, changing, and evolving. God is a force, and an energy, and the center of all that is - as is experienced by humans and by other sentient beings. In this framework, prayer is a tool with which one may connect to that which is within them, and ultimately that which is them. The divine light within is god, although we are not god him/itself. We are but a piece, and yet, we also hold the whole. All reflections and microcosms hold the entirety of the macrocosm. In this way prayer be used to consciously summon the divine creative principle and co-create, bringing into existence or possibility of existence what was before unthought of or deemed impossible.

Thus, the classic "If God is real, all loving, and all powerful, why does he allow suffering?" question is rendered obsolete, null, and void. It is to ask why man engages in self-destructive behaviors, why man hurts himself and others. There is an order, but this order does not have to be followed. It may be more harmonious to learn and live in this order, but it is not necessary nor is it forced. As levels mentioned, free will is one of the most basic tenets of this existence.

But not all suffering is man made. People with terrible diseases, are you saying those were somehow inflicted by the destructive behavior of people? For the record, I don't believe in god, I think it's an insane concept with absolutely no evidence backing it.