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  • EADD Moderators: axe battler | Pissed_and_messed

NPS Act V1. Blankets? Just Say No!

I wasn't posting that link as a response - just to lazy to write post about it. You've got some sort of a point but i don't appreciate my access to legal lysergamides and stimulants in the post being taken away because of the dodgy benzos i've never taken though. I'm for legalising all drugs myslef (or even making them compulsory)
 
I wasnt refering to phychadelics or stimulants just the benzos (although there have been some highly dubious stims over the years)
 
Tbh, there is a case for banning synthetic cannabinoids and benzos, but psychedelics and stimulants? Nah...
 
Wasn't there a stimulant in the aminorex class they bought out that resulted in people losing limbs and dieing. I remember Sprout saying something about it. I may be wrong with the effects but it was definitely something nasty.
 
consumer said:
Wasn't there a stimulant in the aminorex class they bought out that resulted in people losing limbs and dieing. I remember Sprout saying something about it. I may be wrong with the effects but it was definitely something nasty.
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Meh, what's a bit of death?
 
i thought that our laws were way laxer compared to the usa, australia etc, where substances like etiz have already been banned for years? Kratom seems to be getting banned on a state by state basis is the USA. Seems crazy if all you have to do is cross unmanned state lines to drive somewhere that hasnt 'caught up yet' and maybe not even planning to.

Afaik its now only a couple of other European countries that remain relatively lax, particularly for RCs, compared to the UK, pre and post this pending blanket ban, i haven't heard anything about bans there, apart from mephedrone and MDPV which were seemingly banned everywhere at the same time, and the proper precursors totally locked down meaning it has been difficult to get pre-ban quality meph since the ban.

But what with the open uk borders for British citizens from within Europe (this might no longer be the case since Paris, i really dunno, terrorists seem to be able to move around freely enough within Europe)and apparently no checks on mail under a certain weight the ban just means people will have to try a bit harder to get their RCs or go back to the blackmarket, where supposedly people know what is what. If they are fortunate enough to have good contacts otherwise for the next few years the uk blackmarket will just be swamped with unpopular RCs that vendors or buyers couldn't get rid of, probably being palmed off as something more desirable for the unwary.:\

Have i said too much? :eek: People on the Guardian chat are saying much the same sort of thing.:\
 
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englandgz74 said:
You know I was against the ban at first but I can't help thinking that at least some of the RCs we will be better off without. Specifically I'm thinking of the benzos which do way more halm that good on balance. Great for treating seizures and reducing anxiety and insomnia SHORT TERM but things like f-lam and f-pam as a Long term fix for anything..........not really..
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I'm interested to know what you'd consider to be a Long term fix? and a fix for what in particular?..like for instance are you referring to one thing or a spectrum of things. Just curious.
 
Justcanthelpmyself said:
I'm interested to know what you'd consider to be a Long term fix? and a fix for what in particular?..like for instance are you referring to one thing or a spectrum of things. Just curious.
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Well I was refering to my personal belief (and that of many others) that benzos of this type are a very bad idea long term ie. Longer than say a week as they are stupidly potent and very unpredictable. Some of the horrror stories from things like f lam or phenaz over the years are heart breaking. I don't consider these drugs a Long term fix for any ailment. As I said there's nothing wrong with benzos.....as a paramedic I used diazepam or midazalam most days.but that's a one off treatment for a grandmal seizure not something youd want to take every day for six months.
 
englandgz74 said:
You know I was against the ban at first but I can't help thinking that at least some of the RCs we will be better off without. Specifically I'm thinking of the benzos which do way more halm that good on balance. Great for treating seizures and reducing anxiety and insomnia SHORT TERM but things like f-lam and f-pam as a Long term fix for anything..........not really..
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Too bad they will synthesize maybe even worse and dangerous benzos and sell those instead. War on drugs... logic: not even once.
 
englandgz74 said:
Well I was refering to my personal belief (and that of many others) that benzos of this type are a very bad idea long term ie. Longer than say a week as they are stupidly potent and very unpredictable. Some of the horrror stories from things like f lam or phenaz over the years are heart breaking. I don't consider these drugs a Long term fix for any ailment. As I said there's nothing wrong with benzos.....as a paramedic I used diazepam or midazalam most days.but that's a one off treatment for a grandmal seizure not something youd want to take every day for six months.
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ComfortablyNumb95 said:
Too bad they will synthesize maybe even worse and dangerous benzos and sell those instead. War on drugs... logic: not even once.
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Apparently even the pharmaceutical benzos are not good long term as apparently they make anxiety worst and cause a lot of other problems including dependency. I don't know whether the anxiety being increased is true because I read this in a magazine and I then to take magazines and newspapers with a pinch of salt, unless it's a science journal or something containing proper studies.

What are your thoughts on this, those of you who have used benzos? If you've used both RC and pharmaceutical benzos have you noticed a difference in affect short term or long term?

Who better than to ask than the people themselves.

Evey
 
Theyre pretty much the same Evey. The thing is at least we know a bit about the pharm benzos where as the RC ones (not all however) are not tried and tested. They are also very, very potent ....active in mcg amounts and you can buy a bag of powder (hundreds of tablets worth and hard to dose) for the price of a few drinks (or at least you could up until about a month ago) very, very easily. Its a recipe for a trainwreck.

Benzos are a SHORG TERM medication. They stop working after a While and the only people who should have long term benzo scripts are people with status epilepsus to be used in emergency. Usually they get buccal midazalam or occasionaly diazemuls (rectal diazepam) which is what we mainly use at work. We also have iv Diaz and midaz but getting a line into someone who is seizing is tricky to say the least so 5mg diazepam PR is usually first treratment.
 
englandgz74 said:
You know I was against the ban at first but I can't help thinking that at least some of the RCs we will be better off without. Specifically I'm thinking of the benzos which do way more halm that good on balance. Great for treating seizures and reducing anxiety and insomnia SHORT TERM but things like f-lam and f-pam as a Long term fix for anything..........not really..
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Flubromazolam is dangerously crap due to its ridiculous potency and total lack of consistency in its effects.

Flubromazepam is probably my favourite RC benzo - but again at the risk of repeating myself, It it easy to see why Roche never developed it into a medicine as it is far too impractical to use - its excellent hypnotic properties are of no practical benefit to anyone who cant afford to stay in bed for 24 hours and its anxiolytic properties, while superb are again of no practical use to anyone who has a life to lead due to its overwhelming hypnotic effect. For those like me who actually find the effect of benzos often desirable, if not quite recreational, flubromazepam is as good as any pharmaceutical benzodiazepine as a drug of abuse. No benzodiazepine, whether its the active ingredient in a medicine or sold as an NPS, is a long term solution for anything. I have been taking benzodiazpeines since 2000 on a PRN basis and while I have found them the easiest and best way to control my anxiety I have always understood there general profile of action over a medium to long term basis and I have never been under the impression that they are a solution to my neurosis, they just cover it up so well that it feels extremely nice to given a break from your brain and worries).

When it comes to the PSA however tho all I have written above is irrelevant. Most drugs are inherently harmful and even dangerous if overused and I know that Im not the one scraping up the mess that alot of these drugs have created. But while I admit there have been some close calls from my wreckless uveruse of some drugs, the majority of the damage that drugs have caused me is down to their legal status. If I had developed an alcohol problem while nursing I may have been offered support, but as my addiction concerned the most reviled controlled drug on the streets (The one that is so 'dangerous' that doctors use it every day safely due to its general lack of toxicity), the police naturally took exception to the fact that I was i possession of 20 pounds (sterling) worth of the drug, and the standard treatment for people with similar health problems as me is to label them as criminals, instantly removing the sort of future opportunities that may motivate me to address my drug use as a long term priority. Of course, I cannot deny that by this point my position as a nurse was completely untenable and I was unfit to practice until my dependence issues were addressed, but unlike alcohol addiction to heroin is seen as proof of habitual criminal activity first and foremost, and formal treatment involves having the word junkie tattooed on your forehead just in case you try and ever try and put the fact that you were a junkie behind you. If I had been dependent on the extremely toxic ethanol, I may have attracted at least a small amount of empathy (as 'everyone' likes a drink from time to time) and offered some treatment. But it was a different poison so aside from a referral to the the polices 'advisor' on drug offenders, I was suspended from the nursing register until they had the time to issue an official striking off order. Unlike Docters, who have to kill quite alot of people through professional or criminal negligence before the GMC will take action by restricting their ability to practice for 3 months, when nurses are struck off from the NMC's professional register it is for life- you can turn your life around completely but they dont care if you save the world from utter destruction or devote 10 years to doing voluntary humanitarian work in an African warzone - you will never be allowed to practice as a registered nurse ever again. (the only Doctor who I am aware of who was struck off the GMC's professional register for life was Harold Shipman).

While all drugs have at least some detrimental effect , most are downright dangerous when overused or used in an extremely dangerous manner. But at the same time, most of these drugs can be used in moderation causing little to no harm as long as the user employs whatever harm reduction they can. But when the lawmakers are more interested in preventing people from getting high than they are in the health or life potential or their citizens, I cannot subscribe to prohibition in any form. I personally have a major problem with synthetic cannabinoids as they many of them are extremely dangerous and they have a big part to play in the negative media attention NPS have attained. But it is still no ones right to enforce what folk can or cannot put into their bodies, even when you know the potential harm that may come of it. Anybody aware of the risks of these particular chemicals have a moral obligation to point out the risks involved in the use of such items, but it is still the individuals choice.

If people had the choice to put whatever drug they wanted to in their body, then most folk would make the same sensible health choices as the constantly increasing proportion of non smokers do. But for those that do want to use drugs, many of the harms and deaths would be preventable - how is anyone expected to completely avoid harm from an NPS when the 'law' still just about allows us to sell them, just as long as we dont provide any users with information on their safe use instead of covering the packaging with bio and chemhazard symbols and skull and crossbones. If all drugs were available with full quality control and information on their safest use, then gradually folk would drift away from most of these dodgy designer drugs and would stick to the classics, which have remained available on the black market since prohibition because they are and always will be the the best drugs for recreational use. How many problems would have been avoided if cannabis was legal, as there would be no demand whatsoever for synth noids whatsoever?

Although many folk self medicate with recreational or unprescribed psychoactive drugs, most folk initially turn to them for kicks, and aside from creating a desirable altered state, they are not a solution to health or social problems. They are a (poor) lifestyle choice if used long term, but when the population has never been protected form such things, who has the authority to pick and choose what should be available and what shouldnt be. As long as all these chemicals are manufactured to pharmaceutical standards with clear information on their effects and the short and long term risks of their use, then human nature would over time select the best and safest drugs available while crap like flubromazolam would fade away (even folk with a seroius taste for benzos have at least 40 better choices than that rubbish).

The maximum amount of acetaminophen that folk can take within 24 hours is 4 grams. You only have to double this amount to overdose - 8 grams will leave most folk with irreparable damage to their livers at the least and in some cases it be enough to cause a fatality. Over the 20 years during which I have been either working in healthcare or abusing drugs, not once have I come across a drug whos therapeutic dose is only 8 pills below an overdose, and you can buy them in a newsagent. People use them to harm themselves every day, but as long as they cant get high, thats good enough for the government.

I dont care what the drug is - it is legal to drink a poison that will definitely kill you but illegal to ingest what are in comparison minor toxins in case you enjoy yourself. Long term drug use will almost inevitably cause problems of some kind, but that is a choice that people make and should be entitled to make. Just because its not advisable due to the detriment drug use can cause to peoples physical and mental health it is frankly unbelievable that it is seen as a criminal act, which is why I will always defend anyones choice to put any drug in their body.

The law left me with nothing to aspire to aside from sourcing stronger drugs once I was 'expelled' from general society. I take full responsibility for the mess I have got myself into, but I could (and would) have addressed my health problems much sooner if I wasn't so preoccupied with the professional implications due to my addiction being proof of my criminality (drug possession).

Again, apologies for such a long post but I HATE the law whenever it comes to drugs, it has completely failed to protect me from anything and has compounded every related physical or mental health problem I have ever had.
 
Very good post stee.

Same with paramedics if your struck off the HCPC register you're gone.

Ironically since my own issues involved prescribed opiates (some like fent much more potent than heroin) and I was honest about it and got off that was considered mitigation and I faced no punishment only support......tad ironic
 
englandgz74 said:
Very good post stee.

Same with paramedics if your struck off the HCPC register you're gone.

Ironically since my own issues involved prescribed opiates (some like fent much more potent than heroin) and I was honest about it and got off that was considered mitigation and I faced no punishment only support......tad ironic
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....and that was the right outcome, G. It wasn't like you were cunning n out for what you could get, you were ill and you were open and honest with them about it so they gave you help, knowing your a good paramedic that they probably don't wish to lose, that was obvious when you received your promotion to senior paramedic. Hearing this has restored my faith, somewhat. Addicts should be given help and support, punished n made to feel a disgrace.

You came off 150 mg of methadone when people struggle coming of a 30mg daily dose - you're body was probably screaming out for opiates and they probably looked at everything and weighed it all up. You genuine care for people, you're compassionate, empathic, passionate for what you do, for wanting things to improve. Obviously that's my perception of you from reading your posts and from past Emails n I cannot definite describe you from an Internet site but coming from what I perceive, that's my perception n if they see those good qualities especially honest and sincere, they're not gna want to get rid of you as honest, genuine, hard-working n passionate employees in their job role, are hard to come by.

According to this book I read "Painkiller Addict," fentanyl is meant to be 100 times stronger than everyone. I highly recommend this book, to be honest, because it shows how anyone can become an addict (I'll go into that in the reading thread, don't want to de-rail this thread).

Evey
 
Eveleivibe said:
....and that was the right outcome, G. It wasn't like you were cunning n out for what you could get, you were ill and you were open and honest with them about it so they gave you help, knowing your a good paramedic that they probably don't wish to lose, that was obvious when you received your promotion to senior paramedic. Hearing this has restored my faith, somewhat. Addicts should be given help and support, punished n made to feel a disgrace.

You came off 150 mg of methadone when people struggle coming of a 30mg daily dose - you're body was probably screaming out for opiates and they probably looked at everything and weighed it all up. You genuine care for people, you're compassionate, empathic, passionate for what you do, for wanting things to improve. Obviously that's my perception of you from reading your posts and from past Emails n I cannot definite describe you from an Internet site but coming from what I perceive, that's my perception n if they see those good qualities especially honest and sincere, they're not gna want to get rid of you as honest, genuine, hard-working n passionate employees in their job role, are hard to come by.

According to this book I read "Painkiller Addict," fentanyl is meant to be 100 times stronger than everyone. I highly recommend this book, to be honest, because it shows how anyone can become an addict (I'll go into that in the reading thread, don't want to de-rail this thread).

Evey
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Thanks Evey ....even if they did promote me to senior paramedic then promptly steal 500 quid from me. I was on 300mcg fent an hour then 180mg methadone then jumped to nothing. Was far from easy.
 
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