Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine Mega Thread and FAQ v17.0 + v18.0

[Tommyboy]

Hiya fullycaffeinated,

How are you? Welcome to the suboxone thread!

Right. Let's answer this. The ceiling affect depends on the person. Some say 4, some say 8, some say 32, some say that the 32 was BS n that it was BS marketing strategy. So, basically it's all down to opinion n personal experience, in my opinion.

I hope this helps n apologise if it does not. Everyone is different.

Hopefully, there will be someone more experienced to help you soon.

All the very best - and thank you for dropping by the suboxone Megathread.

Evey xxxx

Ceiling dose is an actual dose and not an opinion. Cane2TheLeft had posted a scientific article in one of the older sub threads that showed the actual ceiling dose of bupe which was based on scientific studies so it's not some matter of opinion type of thing. I don't remember the exact dose but I know it was lower than 7mg, and I'm pretty sure that it was somewhere between 3-6mg.

The variable is the different properties of the drug. For example the blockade effect may be achieved at doses higher than the ceiling dose for analgesic effects, and doses beyond the ceiling will increase the duration of the drug despite the person not feeling additional effects from the drug.

Now there is obviously going to be a range in the ceiling dose, but that's why it's an average based on scientific measures in many people and so it is a real number and not an opinion. If the drug is administered and a change in brain chemistry is observed, and additional doses are given until there is no longer such a change, then the dose at which the reaction stops occurring at can be documented, compared among a large number of subjects, and averaged to arrive the ceiling dose.

 

[fullycaffeinated]

Ceiling dose is an actual dose and not an opinion. Cane2TheLeft had posted a scientific article in one of the older sub threads that showed the actual ceiling dose of bupe which was based on scientific studies so it's not some matter of opinion type of thing. I don't remember the exact dose but I know it was lower than 7mg, and I'm pretty sure that it was somewhere between 3-6mg.

The variable is the different properties of the drug. For example the blockade effect may be achieved at doses higher than the ceiling dose for analgesic effects, and doses beyond the ceiling will increase the duration of the drug despite the person not feeling additional effects from the drug.

Now there is obviously going to be a range in the ceiling dose, but that's why it's an average based on scientific measures in many people and so it is a real number and not an opinion. If the drug is administered and a change in brain chemistry is observed, and additional doses are given until there is no longer such a change, then the dose at which the reaction stops occurring at can be documented, compared among a large number of subjects, and averaged to arrive the ceiling dose.

Thanks tommyboy, my only question was, is that in sublingual terms? Basically trying to determine the highest one can dose with norbupe still getting it's action, although even norbupe seems to be a debate in and of itself.

Also, still trying to figure out how much bupe would be built up in one's system at 20 mg/day, I appreciate the helpful equation Scag posted a few pages ago, but I have also read that the half-life of bupe is not exactly linear, therefore it may be less than the number reached in that equation?

 

[LSDiesel]

for other people i recommend if you injected heroin last then wait 12 hours till sub's if you smoke/snort it then wait until 6 hours have passed to take sub's or just wait till your craving bad and in withdrawal when you normally start thinking of dosing again and youll be fine going by a set time is hard cause everybody is different.

I must say that I don't think this is very good advice for anyone. If you inject, you would have to wait less, where as if you sniff it would stay in you longer, so you would have to wait longer to dose the sub. Maybe you meant the reverse?


Also, I find SLEEP plays a very important role with bupe induction. As in, if I dose heroin at 7am, and abstain for the rest of the day, falling asleep from 10pm to 6am, I can induct at 7am no problems, that being 24 hours later. If I dose heroin at 9pm and fall asleep from 10pm and 6am, and dose bupe at 7am, being 10 hours later, I am still fine provided that I slept.

However, if I dose heroin at 9pm, and stay awake all night, if I induct the bupe, 10 hours later, I can get a little PWD.

It's almost as if I MUST have a good solid sleep cycle between last dope shot and starting bupe. Anyone else experience this? Sleep being a requirement between dope and bupe?

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

what is this word "sleep" you speak of? lol.
damn i wish i could.. i really do.

 

[The Doc.]

^Maybe I misunderstood you, and if thate 's the case, I apologize.

Thanks sorry I said I got no time for you just felt insulted and I wanted to answer his question and say everybody's different. I think you are a stand up guy

 

[BlueHues]

^I've had mods misunderstand my posts, and had similar reactions...although, I still don't 100% agree with your opinion of suboxone induction, you're entitled to post whatever you want as long as it doesn't cross the line into ridiculousness....

I have to scan through a bunch of threads and sometimes it's easy to miss parts of the discussion and take something out of context...

 

[The Doc.]

I must say that I don't think this is very good advice for anyone. If you inject, you would have to wait less, where as if you sniff it would stay in you longer, so you would have to wait longer to dose the sub. Maybe you meant the reverse?


Also, I find SLEEP plays a very important role with bupe induction. As in, if I dose heroin at 7am, and abstain for the rest of the day, falling asleep from 10pm to 6am, I can induct at 7am no problems, that being 24 hours later. If I dose heroin at 9pm and fall asleep from 10pm and 6am, and dose bupe at 7am, being 10 hours later, I am still fine provided that I slept.

However, if I dose heroin at 9pm, and stay awake all night, if I induct the bupe, 10 hours later, I can get a little PWD.

It's almost as if I MUST have a good solid sleep cycle between last dope shot and starting bupe. Anyone else experience this? Sleep being a requirement between dope and bupe?

I find it sure would ease the mind and fear of being put in precipitated withdrawals cause you figure you slept it off you know but I'm not sure if the opiates would leave your body any faster just from being asleep I wouldn't think so I think it may be phycological.

And actually I meant to say
smoking =6 hours(roughly)
I.V./snorting= 12 hours (roughly)
I wrote smoking/snorting instead mabye cause I always mixed the two R.O.A.'s

I find snorting last pretty much as long as shooting but I actually find I get sick quicker when snorted I know lots of people that swear I.V. heroin lasts longer then snorted I could get away with 8 hours between use with I.v. before feeling sick but with snorting I would be pretty dam sick after 6 hours I think we all agree that smoking it leaves the body the quickest out of any R.O.A. but like I said everybody is different so just wait till your in withdrawal and your good to go.

 

[The Doc.]

^I've had mods misunderstand my posts, and had similar reactions...although, I still don't 100% agree with your opinion of suboxone induction, you're entitled to post whatever you want as long as it doesn't cross the line into ridiculousness....

I have to scan through a bunch of threads and sometimes it's easy to miss parts of the discussion and take something out of context...

Well said sir thank you for your honesty. I guess we both agree when inducting on subs just wait till your having physical withdrawals don't worry too much about a set time to go by because every person is different and will react to the drug differently. There's some like me who wait 4 hours and are perfectly fine and others who wait 24 hours and get bit in the ass with intense withdrawals despite waiting 6× longer than me.
Nothing but respect blues hues

 

[fullycaffeinated]

I must say that I don't think this is very good advice for anyone. If you inject, you would have to wait less, where as if you sniff it would stay in you longer, so you would have to wait longer to dose the sub. Maybe you meant the reverse?

Also, I find SLEEP plays a very important role with bupe induction. As in, if I dose heroin at 7am, and abstain for the rest of the day, falling asleep from 10pm to 6am, I can induct at 7am no problems, that being 24 hours later. If I dose heroin at 9pm and fall asleep from 10pm and 6am, and dose bupe at 7am, being 10 hours later, I am still fine provided that I slept.

However, if I dose heroin at 9pm, and stay awake all night, if I induct the bupe, 10 hours later, I can get a little PWD.

It's almost as if I MUST have a good solid sleep cycle between last dope shot and starting bupe. Anyone else experience this? Sleep being a requirement between dope and bupe?

Absolutely. Sleep is absolutely crucial for me as well. I gotta sleep and as long as I sleep I'm pretty much good.

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

The habit beforehand doesn't necessarily matter, in my opinion. Most people on here know that I was on 900 mg codeine before going onto suboxone and I have never suffered with nausea. However, it is possible that the dose may be too high for Blacksheepannie as an individual as drugs affect everyone in different ways.

Take care,
Evey

Ok.. The habit before hand doesn't matter "IN YOUR OPINION" but does if you wanna make sense.. I went from 1g dope to 120mg methadone to 16mg suboxone then realized after only one month of being on it that 8mg was enough to hold me..
Then I tapered to 4mg a day then 2 then down to .25mg 3ish times a day and was on it for over 2 years.
But your huge codeine addiction must warrant a higher dose all because "previous usage doesn't matter in your opinion".

I respect that you're trying to help people but please don't try to tell someone who is very educated on this particular subject they're wrong because of your opinion.
There is a difference between opinion and fact.


And the rest of the post from before what i quoted you reiterated almost exactly what I had said in my previous posts but then disagreed with me at the end.

This ain't the first time you've had something to say about my posts either.
Not just this thread but others as well.

 

[cg9256]

Ya that sleep theory has always worked for me too. Maybe because when I do dope or pills i always wake up in withdrawal, its not like i wake up itching and nodding. Whenever i switch back from dope to subs, i always spend my last night going hard as hell doing all of the last of my pills/dope, i sleep long as fuck obviously, wake up in withdrawal and take my sub and on I go with the rest of my life.

 

[Eveleivibe]

Ok.. The habit before hand doesn't matter "IN YOUR OPINION" but does if you wanna make sense.. I went from 1g dope to 120mg methadone to 16mg suboxone then realized after only one month of being on it that 8mg was enough to hold me..
Then I tapered to 4mg a day then 2 then down to .25mg 3ish times a day and was on it for over 2 years.
But your huge codeine addiction must warrant a higher dose all because "previous usage doesn't matter in your opinion".

I respect that you're trying to help people but please don't try to tell someone who is very educated on this particular subject they're wrong because of your opinion.
There is a difference between opinion and fact.


And the rest of the post from before what i quoted you reiterated almost exactly what I had said in my previous posts but then disagreed with me at the end.

This ain't the first time you've had something to say about my posts either.
Not just this thread but others as well.

I wasn't criticising your posts. I just gave an opinion, based on my experience n iterated that to be the case. I'm sorry that I've offended you or that you feel that I have somehow had a go at posts of yours on others threads I honestly never meant to come across as doing that n as it seems that I have done, then I sincerely apologise.

In my experience, the psychological aspect of addiction was more disabling n destructive than the physical. For ME, I tried 8 mg n still craved n after 5 months I went to 12 mg n things were better for me.

I stopped drinking heavily, which I was doing as I was craving opiates bad.

I'm not suggesting that others should go on a high dose of suboxone - I'm saying it depends on the person n their situation.

For instance, to use depression as an example if two people had depression n were put on the same AD just because 20 mg works for one doesn't mean that, that amount will
Help the other - the may need 60 mg.

I'm glad that you tapered suboxone that's a grear achievement n you should be extremely proud of yourself. Plus you can now help others, which is ace. That's what we're all here for, right?! - to get suport n to support back. That's certainly why I'm here.

I truly am sorry that you feel that I've picked at your posts n will be more than happy to discuss it further in PM.

All the best,
Evey

 

[d1ahp]

Does anyone struggle with Suboxone not helping very much when you first take it? I mean, it does make things easier but it's as if I'm still having a withdrawal in the background for the first 4 days. Regardless of whether I take 8, 4, or 2mg. The first 4 days are hard. The thing is that this used to not happen when I was younger. I'd take 8mg while in a moderate withdrawal and all the symptoms would go away as if I didn't have a withdrawal at all. Does anyone have any input on this?

 

[cg9256]

^Same thing happens to me dude. The more times i go from using back to bupe, the longer it seems to take to get back to feeling decent on the bupe. I have a feeling that you cant go on and off bupe forever, i feel like one day its just not gunna work anymore.

 

[d1ahp]

Every single time I tried to get on it as of recent I'd make it 4 days and then would break down and make myself some PST. Which has pretty much become my drug of choice, but its long half life doesn't help with its withdrawals, which I find to be worse than a moderate oxy habit withdrawals.

 

[cg9256]

Benzos and subs mix pretty well for the first couple days for me. I actually just had to quit everything last wed. besides subs for a piss test i got coming up. Even alcohol. I been fine though just bored as fuck. Been spending my time trying to get to bluelighter status HA!

 

[Tommyboy]

Does anyone struggle with Suboxone not helping very much when you first take it? I mean, it does make things easier but it's as if I'm still having a withdrawal in the background for the first 4 days. Regardless of whether I take 8, 4, or 2mg. The first 4 days are hard. The thing is that this used to not happen when I was younger. I'd take 8mg while in a moderate withdrawal and all the symptoms would go away as if I didn't have a withdrawal at all. Does anyone have any input on this?

Yeah that's pretty common, and I think that another factor aside from the obvious complications from going back and forth is that most peoples tolerances are higher over time which makes it harder for the bupe to work.

The ceiling dose of bupe makes it harder to cover a larger habit, but if you wait longer to dose it helps a lot. Like if you have a decent heroin habit where you need 4 bags a day to stay well, and you try starting suboxone when you would normally need more bags to get well then it probably won't work that well since the ceiling effect is preventing it from being strong enough to take the withdrawals away. But if you are able to wait closer to 48 hours when you are really sick then you need a smaller dose of an opioid to make you feel better so subs will work better then. It's best to wait because if you take it too soon where it doesn't help much then it seems that no dose will help you for a few days until you finally stabilize.

Personally I find around 250mg of oxy or 4 bags of dope to be the cutoff for where the ceiling dose of bupe prevents it from taking away the withdrawals well when taken within 24 hours of your last dose of oxy or dope. The conversion chart has every 1mg sublingual dose of bupe to be equal to 25mg of oral oxycodone so it would make sense for it to not work well for doses of oxy above 250mg since that would be like 10mg of suboxone, and the ceiling is closer to 5mg which is around 125mg of oxy and most people need close to half their normal dose to feel well which is where that falls. But if you need half your normal dose to feel well the first day then you need a lower dose like 1/3 to be well the second day which is when it falls below the ceiling dose equivalence, making it more effective.

And to whoever asked, I'm always referring to the sublingial ROA with bupe unless otherwise stated.

 

[d1ahp]

Yeah that's pretty common, and I think that another factor aside from the obvious complications from going back and forth is that most peoples tolerances are higher over time which makes it harder for the bupe to work.

The ceiling dose of bupe makes it harder to cover a larger habit, but if you wait longer to dose it helps a lot. Like if you have a decent heroin habit where you need 4 bags a day to stay well, and you try starting suboxone when you would normally need more bags to get well then it probably won't work that well since the ceiling effect is preventing it from being strong enough to take the withdrawals away. But if you are able to wait closer to 48 hours when you are really sick then you need a smaller dose of an opioid to make you feel better so subs will work better then. It's best to wait because if you take it too soon where it doesn't help much then it seems that no dose will help you for a few days until you finally stabilize.

Personally I find around 250mg of oxy or 4 bags of dope to be the cutoff for where the ceiling dose of bupe prevents it from taking away the withdrawals well when taken within 24 hours of your last dose of oxy or dope. The conversion chart has every 1mg sublingual dose of bupe to be equal to 25mg of oral oxycodone so it would make sense for it to not work well for doses of oxy above 250mg since that would be like 10mg of suboxone, and the ceiling is closer to 5mg which is around 125mg of oxy and most people need close to half their normal dose to feel well which is where that falls. But if you need half your normal dose to feel well the first day then you need a lower dose like 1/3 to be well the second day which is when it falls below the ceiling dose equivalence, making it more effective.

And to whoever asked, I'm always referring to the sublingial ROA with bupe unless otherwise stated.

The thing is that I'm trying to get off poppy seed tea. Which makes it hard to determine how much opiates I'm consuming. I do think I underestimated its strength, though. I waited 28 hours since my last dose to take the Sub. The first 4 days I'd take 4mg, with the exception of the first day, where I took 8mg. It is undeniable that Suboxone made the withdrawal easier but I could feel a definite withdrawal in the background.

I've dabbled in poppy seed tea a lot looking for the right way to prepare it and finding the best seed source, and I can understand why some people think it's trash. But if you get the right seeds, the buzz is strong and lasts well into the next day. I've done heroin, oxy, opana, just about any opiate out there, spent a year on methadone maintenance..but pst has been so hard to quit because I just go into the grocery store or order a 25lb box online, which lasts me a week.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[Eveleivibe]

If you think suboxone will help you in overcoming your addiction then go for it. I was on codeine before I went onto suboxone and I have never regretted the decision I made. Suboxone has helped me have counselling, financially, stop the obsessive thoughts, live my life and work through why I became addicted in the first place by attending meetings with like-minded people.

d1ahp, there's no need to apologise for the rant at all. But really the only one who can decide what to do for the best is you. I wish you all the very best.

My PM box is always open if anyone wants to have any support, talk or whatever.

Evey

 

[fullycaffeinated]

Yeah that's pretty common, and I think that another factor aside from the obvious complications from going back and forth is that most peoples tolerances are higher over time which makes it harder for the bupe to work.

The ceiling dose of bupe makes it harder to cover a larger habit, but if you wait longer to dose it helps a lot. Like if you have a decent heroin habit where you need 4 bags a day to stay well, and you try starting suboxone when you would normally need more bags to get well then it probably won't work that well since the ceiling effect is preventing it from being strong enough to take the withdrawals away. But if you are able to wait closer to 48 hours when you are really sick then you need a smaller dose of an opioid to make you feel better so subs will work better then. It's best to wait because if you take it too soon where it doesn't help much then it seems that no dose will help you for a few days until you finally stabilize.

Personally I find around 250mg of oxy or 4 bags of dope to be the cutoff for where the ceiling dose of bupe prevents it from taking away the withdrawals well when taken within 24 hours of your last dose of oxy or dope. The conversion chart has every 1mg sublingual dose of bupe to be equal to 25mg of oral oxycodone so it would make sense for it to not work well for doses of oxy above 250mg since that would be like 10mg of suboxone, and the ceiling is closer to 5mg which is around 125mg of oxy and most people need close to half their normal dose to feel well which is where that falls. But if you need half your normal dose to feel well the first day then you need a lower dose like 1/3 to be well the second day which is when it falls below the ceiling dose equivalence, making it more effective.

And to whoever asked, I'm always referring to the sublingial ROA with bupe unless otherwise stated.

Thanks much for your help. Just to give some hope to those with larger habits - I looked up conversions before switching to bupe and was very scared it might not work for me as my habit was much larger - at one point I was doing multiple buns a day (snorted though, not shot) or upwards of 500 mg oxy. I have not had issues with bupe not holding me. I've also switched back and forth a few times and so far so good. I was started on 10 or 12 mg in rehab when my habit was around 400 mg oxy or around a bun a day, and it not only held me, but I caught a slight nod (although I hadn't slept the previous night). I had about 24 hrs off oxy. When I started bupe treatment a few months later my habit was around 2 buns a day and 16 mg held me but that was it, however that was only 16-18 hrs after sniffing h.

I have a bupe appt in a few days and possible drug test. My question does not pertain to the test. I have only been taking 2-4 mg bupe per day, but am scripted 20 so I must take 20 for the next few days. How long do you think it will take after three days of taking 20 mg to get back to the point where I get slight mood lift/energy from doses of 1-2 mg? Also, how long do you think it will take to feel dope? 2-3 half lives? Also in this time would it be very helpful to not dose again until I feel wds coming on?