Excellent info thanks all, especially sids.
The problem in my case is that I am on SSRI's, which I have begun tapering rather aggressively so far without issues. I would love some guidance for safe use of Iboga with SSRI's or for treating discontinuation if possible. Been on 50mg for 6-7 years now but its time to stop.
My plan here is to either begin the microdosing once/IF SSRI withdrawals begin to kick in an as a way to treat it in a similar way withdrawals are treated with opiates and other drugs with Iboga.
OR I will begin the microdosing once the 5 days without SSRI's are up. 5 days is indicated for Paxil as the time it would take to be cleared from the system.
I understand that SSRI's should be ok with microdoses and should only result in an increased effect from the SSRI therefore reducing my dosage as I have done (below 50% of my dose now so far) should be fine.
Note, I have been meaning to stop SSRI usage in any case as the issues treated have gone after many years now, not just doing this to allow for Iboga usage...
Hi
Ok, very important... Do not ever use ibogaine with any SSRI/SNRI! Ibo is serotogenic and has been known to cause serotonin syndrome when administered with AD's on board.
Tapering SSRI's is a bitch and I feel for you, ibo is not gonna help you with this one though I'm afraid, a gradual, slow taper is the only way off them really, similar to tapering benzo's.
I guess microdosing could be an option but I don't really want to be the person to tell you it's 'safe'. I think I mentioned in that piece I wrote before that it's not really advised with any kind of SSRI on board, we also still don't really know exactly how ibo works. It seems to affect most body systems.
I do know that any provider with half a brain will not flood someone unless they are off all prescribed meds except literally opiates and benzos.
(I've pasted a list of meds at the end of this post)
So, to be safe I'd start thinking about using ibo, post SSRI, ideally we're talking 2-3 weeks post. They tend to hang around.,..,
MORNINGGLORYSEED:
I have no stats, there is no empirical data on abstinence achieved with ibogaine.
I'm really happy it worked for you, fantastic!
As happens when any method of detox is succesful, the patient can be quite evangelical about how they did it and how it will work for anyone else.
I wish this were the case man, yes, even excluding me and my varying degrees of success over three floods and multiple low dose regiems's, I can give you many examples of where ibogaine didn't work, one good friend went to be treated by the amazing Sarah Glatt in Holland, she was flooded off methadone and spent 24 hours in acute withdrawal throwing up and shitting herself, she was re-dosed three times with HCl which had no effect whatsoever.
Lots of people relapse, lots return for a second and third flood, why? Because they know it helps. If it didn't work they wouldn't go back, junkies are by nature, experts on their own habit and symptoms. For some it takes three floods to 'get it' ... Ibo isn't like traditional western medicine, it's not a 'take 250mg twice a day for a week' kinda thing.. Trying to quantify and standardise dosing is an ever evolving thing. As is our knowledge of the plant.. It has massive potential, we have barely scratched the surface of what T Iboga is capable of doing.
I can't give you links to my stats, I can only tell you that I've been a active member of the Iboga community ever since I first started looking into it, about five years ago. I admin a facebook support group and I was an admin of the 'Ibogaine Survivors Club' on facebook until a few months ago, ISC was and still is the biggest ibo group on FB with upwards of 800 members when I left.
In my role there I learnt loads about peoples individual experiences and opinions on ibo, I heard stories and gave advice to hundreds of people, I still do in a smaller group.
I am, and always have been an advocate for ibogaine, what I'm saying is that in my experience, people like you are in the tiny minority. Out of those 800 people, I'd say maybe 200 of them had used ibogaine for detox. Of those 200, probably 5 had a similar experience to yours, the dream experience that everybody that took it wanted.
When people first start looking into ibo they tend to only absorb what they want to, im guilty of this too. The 'Oh wow! So I take this drug once, trip balls for 48 hours, maybe puke up and wake up clean, no habit, no wd symptoms, no cravings or urge to ever use any drugs ever again! Amazing! Where do I sign up!?'
Sadly, unscrupulous and unethical people are starting up ibo clinics in Mexico and Canada and charging silly money to fulfil this unnatainable dream for desperate addicts.. A whole other story for another time!
What people actually get varies drastically, most people, like I said, get a decent amount of reduction in the severity of withdrawals, usually 80-100%.
This starts about an hour after dosing and usually lasts about 96 hours.
What ibo seems to do is mask opiate withdrawals, I can vouch for this 100%. I get a huge reduction in acute withdrawals. I mean its pretty incredible.
What then happens is the initial ibo starts to wear off, if the client was using a short acting opiate like heroin or morphine, is as the ibo wears off you usually catch the tail end of the acute wd phase, minor sniffles and sneezes. With a bit of determination you can get through this easily, if necessary some rootbark will help, cannabis is good and psylocibin too.
That there is your ideal, perfect situation. IRL things are more complicated... Age, sex, drug being used, length of use all play a part in how long that initial acute wd phase is gonna be. Again, it's usually possible to get through all this..
At this point, three days, you're jumping up and down for joy shouting: 'i'm free, I;m clean!!.. yay' ...
If you're one of the lucky ones you'll slowly regain your strength, (ibo really knocks it out of you, it's like coming round from a general anesthetic) you'll be floating on the ibo pink cloud and go home a new person, turn vegan, stop eating sugar and caffeine, have zero urge to ever touch drugs again, make amends with everyone you hurt, evangelise about ibogaine and everything is happy ever after.
If you're over 30, were on methadone for years and not in the best physical shape then you will most likely struggle, three days the ibo will be wearing off and the methadone withdrawal is just about peaking.
Believe me, I did this twice! I was in tears so happy I was clean, calling my mom and pouring my heart out.. Within 24 hours I was puking up, sweating and shitting myself, begging for a hit.. And I relapsed too.. GUTTED
I was pretty niaeve about ibo really first time round, like I say I wanted the golden ticket story, you're a lucky sod for getting it, but you have to accept that it just isn't like that for everyone.
I tried a few months later, after stopping methadone completely and surviving on morphine and heroin. I had much more success this time round, much less of the chronic never ending achy legs and cramps. I did three boosters in the weeks after of 300mg HCL and I used rootbark (1000mg) whenever I felt I needed it, for about three months after.
So, wow that was long!, long and short of it is that; yes it's an amazing drug, yes it can get you off opiates and yes for some people they get the spiritual awakening and live happily ever after. But for most it's a struggle in the days and weeks after a flood, it takes a lot of work, like any detox, getting off opes is bloody difficult and one way or another we have to pay the piper!
THIKAL:
You're totally right, ibo isnt the safest drug to play with, I'd be really interested to hear about using NDMA agonists to help with an opiate taper.
I think all I can suggest really is that we don't really know how ibo works, it isn't an opiate agonist, it does seem to have some action at the kappa receptor I think?. Ibo in micro dose levels seems to take the edge off withdrawals but unlike an opiate it doesnt add to the agonist effect, so it's not masking wd symptoms by just acting like an opiate. There wouldn't be much point in using any other NDMA agonist would there? You may as well just use whatever your'e using, heroin or morphine etc...?
Interesting..
This list was posted on another forum recently, it's a list of drugs that may interact with ibo, any drug that prolongs qt interval, including incidentally methadone, carry risk..:
www.Torsades.org 09/03/2002
Drugs That Prolong the QT Interval
and/or Induce Torsades de Pointes
www.Torsades.org
Raymond L. Woosley, MD, PhD
www.ArizonaCERT.org
Information from the FDA-approved drug labeling and the medical literature.
This list is maintained by Raymond L. Woosley, MD, PhD, Vice President for
Health Sciences at University of Arizona Health Sciences Center,
(
[email protected]). Suggested additions, deletions and references
are most welcome; the list has benefited immensely from the input of
practicing physicians and other researchers in the field. This list will be
updated as new information becomes available. The content of this Table is
for public use, free of charge and for information only. It is not intended to
be used in any other manner. The author disclaims any liability, loss,
injury, or damage incurred as a consequence, directly or indirectly, or the
use and application of any of the contents of this Table. The information
presented on this site is intended as general health information and as an
educational tool. It is not intended as medical advice. Only a physician,
pharmacist, or other health care professional should advise a patient on
medical issues and should do so using a medical history and other factors
identified and documented as part of the health professional/patient
relationship.
The entire content of this site is protected by International and United States of America copyright
laws.
KEY:
• QT: Prolongation is mentioned in the FDA-approved labeling as a known action of the
drug.
• TdP: The FDA-approved labeling includes mention of cases or a risk of Torsades de
Pointes (TdP).
• Cases in Lit: There are case reports of TdP in the medical literature.
• F>M (Females>Males): Substantial evidence indicates a greater risk (usually > twofold)
of TdP in women.
• Off Market: This drug has been removed from the US market because of druginduced
TdP.
Drugs that prolong the QT interval and/or induce
Torsades De Pointes
Drug (Brand Names) Drug Class (Clinical Usage) QT TdP Comments
Amiodarone
(Cordarone®,Pacerone®)
Anti-arrhythmic/abnormal heart rhythm QT TdP F>M,
Arsenic trioxide (Trisenox®) Anti-cancer/Leukemia QT TdP Cases in Lit,
Bepridil (Vascor®) Anti-anginal/heart pain QT TdP F>M,
Chlorpromazine (Thorazine®) Anti-psychotic/ Antiemetic/
schizophrenia/ nausea
Cisapride(Propulsid®) GI stimulant/heartburn QT TdP F>M,
Clarithromycin(Biaxin®) Antibiotic/bacterial infection Cases in Lit,
Disopyramide (Norpace®) Anti-arrhythmic/abnormal heart rhythm QT TdP F>M,
Dofetilide (Tikosyn®) Anti-arrhythmic/abnormal heart rhythm QT TdP
Dolasetron(Anzemet®) Anti-nausea/nausea, vomiting QT
Droperidol (Inapsine®) Sedative;Anti-nausea/anesthesia
adjunct, nausea QT TdP Cases in Lit,
Erythromycin (E.E.S.®
,Erythrocin®)
Antibiotic;GI stimulant/bacterial
infection; increase GI motility QT TdP F>M,
Felbamate (Felbatrol®) Anti-convulsant/seizure TdP
Flecainide(Tambocor®) Anti-arrhythmic/abnormal heart rhythm QT TdP Association not
clear
Fluoxetine
(Prozac®,Sarafem®)
Anti-depressant/depression QT TdP Association not
clear
Foscarnet (Foscavir®) Anti-viral/HIV infection QT
Fosphenytoin(Cerebyx®) Anti-convulsant/seizure QT
Gatifloxacin(Tequin®) Antibiotic/bacterial infection
Halofantrine (Halfan®) Anti-malarial/malaria infection QT TdP F>M,
Haloperidol (Haldol®) Anti-psychotic/schizophrenia, agitation QT TdP
Ibutilide(Corvert®) Anti-arrhythmic/abnormal heart rhythm QT TdP F>M,
Indapamide(Lozol®) Diuretic/stimulate urine & salt loss QT Cases in Lit,
Isradipine(Dynacirc®) Anti-hypertensive/high blood pressure QT
Levofloxacin(Levaquin®) Antibiotic/bacterial infection TdP Association not
clear
Levomethadyl(Orlaam®) Opiate agonist/pain control, narcotic
dependence
QT
Mesoridazine(Serentil®) Anti-psychotic/schizophrenia QT TdP
Moexipril/HCTZ (Uniretic®) Anti-hypertensive/high blood pressure QT
Moxifloxacin (Avelox®) Antibiotic/bacterial infection QT
Naratriptan (Amerge®) Serotonin receptor agonist/Migraine
treatment
QT
Nicardipine (Cardene®) Anti-hypertensive/high blood pressure QT
Octreotide (Sandostatin®) Endocrine/acromegaly, carcinoid
diarrhea QT
Paroxetine(Paxil®) Anti-depressant/depression TdP
Pentamidine
(NebuPent®,Pentam®)
Anti-infective/pneumocystis pneumonia QT TdP F>M,
Pimozide(Orap® ) Anti-psychotic/Tourette's tics QT F>M, Cases in
Lit,
Procainamide (Procan®
,Pronestyl®)
Anti-arrhythmic/abnormal heart rhythm QT TdP
Quetiapine (Seroquel® ) Anti-psychotic/schizophrenia QT
Quinidine(Cardioquin®
,Quiniglute®)
Anti-arrhythmic/abnormal heart rhythm QT TdP F>M,
Risperidone (Risperdal® ) Anti-psychotic/schizophrenia QT
Salmeterol (Serevent® ) Sympathomimetic/asthma, COPD QT
Sertraline(Zoloft®) Anti-depressant/depression QT TdP Association not
clear
Sotalol (Betapace® ) Anti-arrhythmic/abnormal heart rhythm QT TdP F>M,
Sparfloxacin (Zagam® ) Antibiotic/bacterial infection QT TdP
Sumatriptan(Imitrex® ) Serotonin receptor agonist/Migraine
treatment
QT
Tacrolimus (Prograf®) Immunosuppressant/Immune
suppression
Cases in Lit,
Tamoxifen (Nolvadex® ) Anti-cancer/breast cancer QT
Thioridazine(Mellaril® ) Anti-psychotic/schizophrenia QT TdP
Tizanidine (Zanaflex® ) Muscle relaxant/ QT
Venlafaxine (Effexor® ) Anti-depressant/depression QT
Ziprasidone(Geodon® ) Anti-psychotic/schizophrenia QT
Zolmitriptan (Zomig® ) Migraine treatment/ QT
We have compiled a list of drugs to avoid in patients with congenital Long QT syndrome. See below
for the full table.
The drugs listed here are potential triggers for Torsades de Pointes (Polymorphic Ventricular Tachycardia) or Ventricular
Fibrillation in the presence of a long QT interval. People who have a long QT interval, due either to congenital long QT
syndrome or due to a QT-prolonging effect of medications or certain heart muscle diseases, are generally advised to avoid use
of these medications if possible. In addition to these drugs, patients with a long QT interval should also avoid drugs that
prolong the QT interval, as listed in
www.Torsades.org.
Chemical Name of
Drug
Brand Names of
Drug Drug Class Clinical Use
Albuterol Proventil, Ventolin,
Volmax, Xopenex
Bronchodilator In asthma: relieves wheezing /
bronchospasm
Amantadine Symmetrel Dopaminergic /
Anti-viral
Parkinson’s disease,
Viral infections
Cocaine Local
anesthetic
In surgery, to numb tissues
Dobutamine Dobutrex Catecholamine Heart failure and shock
Dopamine Catecholamine Heart failure and shock
Ephedrine Broncholate, Kie,
Marax, DF syrup,
Rynatuss
Bronchodilator,
Decongestant
Allergies, sinusitis, asthma
Epinephrine Adrenalin, Ana-Kit,
Bronitin, Bronkaid,
Epifin,
Epinal,Epipen,
Epitrate, Eppy/N,
Glaucon,
Medihaler-Epi,
Primatene, Sus-
Phrine
Catecholamine,
Vasoconstrictor
Treatment of anaphylaxis, other
allergic reactions.
Can be combined with local
anesthetic to prolong their
actions (e.g., Xylocaine,
Sensorcaine)
Fenfluramine Pondimin Appetite
suppressant
To aid dieting and weight loss
Isoproterenol Isuprel, Medihaler-
Iso
Catecholamine Allergic reactions
Metaproterenol Alupent, Metaprel,
Metaproterenol
Bronchodilator In asthma: relieves wheezing /
bronchospasm
Midodrine ProAmatine Vasoconstrictor Prevent low blood pressure and
fainting (syncope)
Norepinephrine Levophed Vasoconstrictor
Inotrope
Treatment for shock or low blood
pressure (BP).
Phentermine Adipex, Fastin,
Ionamin, Obenix,
Obephen,
Obermine,Obestin,
T-Diet
Appetite
suppressant
To aid dieting and weight loss
Phenylephrine Neosynephrine Vasoconstrictor
Decongestant
To raise blood pressure.
Allergies, sinusitis, asthma
Phenylpropanolamine Acutrim, Dexatrim,
Phenoxine,
Phenyldrine,
Propagest,
Phindecon
Decongestant Allergies, sinusitis, asthma
Pseudoephedrine Novafed, Pedia-
Care, Sudafed
Decongestant Allergies, sinusitis, asthma
Ritodrine Yutopar Uterine
relaxant
Used to prevent premature labor
Salmeterol Serevent Bronchodilator In asthma: relieves wheezing /
bronchospasm
Sibutramine Meridia Appetite
suppressant
To aid dieting and weight loss
Terbutaline Brethaire,
Brethine, Brethine-
SC, Bricanyl
Bronchodilator In asthma: relieves wheezing /
bronchospasm
Note: Certain herbal supplements including ephedra and ma huang contain compounds with similar
properties as the drugs listed here and should be avoided in patients with the long QT syndrome.
