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The Small & Handy 4-Pro-DMT Thread

Gregorio888

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Nov 9, 2018
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Hey,

So a vendor I believe quite trustable has this listed on their website now, though the option to buy is unavailable yet (maybe it's elsewhere but I can't find any info about it other than this vendor.) The name listed for it is

4-Propyloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine Fumarate

and the graphic of the molecule is here

4-Pro-dmt.jpg

Again, I can't find out anything about this molecule, nor can I find out what the Propyloxy would theoretically do in the body. Any speculation or does anyone know as to whether it will convert to 4-ho-dmt like 4-AcO-DMT does? I know there's still disagreement on whether 4-AcO-xxx drugs are just prodrugs for 4-ho-xxx, or whether they have they're own unique effects (I believe the latter, but could be wrong of course.)

I found one blue light thread about a 5-Pro-DMT, but it's old, short, and basically just the speculation I'm asking about (is it a prodrug for bufotenine or something more?)


Anyway, I don't know if this is something special or a "just" 4-AcO-DMT copy, but I figured I'd ask the question. Thank you all for any help.
 

Xorkoth

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Xorkoth

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I turned this into the "official" thread for this substance and added it to the Index... I also added the 5-Pro-DMT thread to the Index just so the little discussion there is on it can be found in the future. Thanks for pointing it out. :)
 

cj187

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If that's the correct structure for the molecule, then it won't be a prodrug for psilocin. It would probably be very very weak or completely inactive. Even a 4-methoxy group on a tryptamine makes it pretty much non-psychedelic.

I think the vendor is wrong about the structure though, it's probably 4-propionoxy-DMT. Like 4-AcO-DMT, it would be a prodrug for psilocin. For me and most other people, 4-AcO-DMT has some pretty distinct effects that are different from mushrooms, so 4-PrO-DMT could have it's own distinct style too. It's also possible that the the propionyl group, being larger than an acetyl group, would make the unmetabolized molecule less active than 4-AcO-DMT, making 4-PrO-DMT more similar to mushrooms than 4-AcO-DMT is.
 

+96+

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Oh great, something else to collect... I have the perfect spot right next to my 5-MEO-MALT and 4-ACO-DPT :):ROFLMAO: I'm getting some coins tomorrow and I might have to get some.
 

Gregorio888

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Thanks for the link Shadow and making this the initial small and dandy. I'll be checking your link as soon as able, I'm not sure how I missed it, lol.

Hey cj,

Are you able to explain why the listed molecule wouldn't be a pro-drug and poorly active? I'm not questioning you, it's just the pharmacodynamics/kinetics are well beyond my knowledge base. Would you or anyone else have an idea how it would be metabolized, etc?

As for the vendor misidentifying the molecule, when they announced 4-Pro-DMT I assumed 4-propionoxy-DMT as well. That said it was always listed that they were receiving 4-Pro-DMT not 4-PrO-DMT as I would expect the propionoxy to be named, of course that could be an error as well. And I agree 4-AcO-XXX's have always been different to me, more than just a "time release" version of the 4-Ho-XXX versions. Which could mean if this is 4-PrO-DMT or 4-Pro-DMT the effects could be unique regardless, as you say.

I don't know if the vendor made a mistake of course. I obviously can't name the vendor, but the ability to actually buy the chem isn't available yet, it was just added, if I had to guess, I'd say they'll fix that Monday or at least this coming week. In their defense that they have the right chem name/structure, I've always had open, knowledgable talks with this vendor, and have never received anything but quality product from them. Of course that doesn't mean it can't be an error, but at this point I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, though I'll probably email and check with the vendor before any purchase I might make.

Thanks everyone for the replies
 

cj187

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Ethers are more stable than esters and don't hydrolyze easily. 4-MeO-MiPT is available and is very weak, and its effects don't resemble those of 4-HO-MiPT. I've taken up to 50mg, and it was not psychedelic, though it produced some kind of mild effect that felt vaguely similar to psychedelics. I assume that lengthening the alkyl chain would only diminish the effects even more.

The lowercase O is incorrect. It would still be PrO either way because propoxy and propionoxy both have an oxygen.
 
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Gregorio888

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Thanks cj,

It never even occurred to me that this was like 4-MeO-XXX, with just a couple more carbons, should have looked at the molecule more closely, and thanks for correcting the name. I've had 4-MeO-MiPT, only up to 20mg, but I got very little if anything from it. I've always meant to take it higher, but when I've the time there's always something better to do, lol. Now I'm hoping the vendor did make a mistake and this is the propionoxy not the propyloxy. Like I said earlier, he's knowledgeable, and I've never had a problem with one of his products, definitely nothing mislabeled. But I suppose there's always a first, or he just wanted something completely unique on his site, even if it does turn out to be a dud like 4-MeO-MiPT.
 

Xorkoth

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I actually really like 4-MeO-MiPT, even at 25mg I had, well, not really a "trip" per se, but it was quite empathogenic in a personal and quiet way, very mentally active and focused on the way I respond to things emotionally. I wrote a TR about it, it was actually a somewhat significant experience. I had just a sample and it got me to order a gram.
 

cj187

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The molecular formula on the vendors website seems to confirm that it is propionoxy and not propoxy. It says C19H24N2O6, which is the formula for 4-propionoxy-DMT + fumaric acid. (though I believe tryptamines form a hemi-fumarate salt which would mean that technically isn't correct)
 

yaesutom

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I just noticed this is up for sale somewhere.. i'm very curious! Anyone tried it yet? I'm curious how different it is to 4-AcO-DMT or psilocin.

4-pro-dmt.jpg
 

yaesutom

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Ahhh I just realized... this isn't just an Acetoxy extended its more like a methoxy extended out a couple carbons... so it would maybe have effects more like a 4-MeO tryptamine.
 
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Hodor

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Ahhh I just realized... this isn't just an Acetoxy extended its more like a methoxy extended out a couple carbons... so it would maybe have effects more like a 4-MeO tryptamine.
"Propionoxy" implies that it should indeed be an ester just like the acetoxy version, and that the structure pictured is simply wrong (if it was an ether like 4-MeO, it would be called "propoxy", indicating that it is derived from a propyl/alkyl group rather than propionyl/acyl group).

There would be little reason for them to make a propoxy tryptamine if they haven't even tried to sell the ethoxy version. Unlike an ester, which serves as a prodrug for the active metabolite psilocin ("4-HO-DMT") and does not necessarily have to be active in itself (ex.: psilocybin / 4-Phosphoryloxy-DMT is way too polar to effectively enter the brain before being metabolized into psilocin), ethers are not readily cleaved; consequently, it should greatly affect the compound's potency, and probably not in a desirable way.
 

Xorkoth

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I believe it has been verified that this is 4-propionoxy-DMT and that their picture is wrong, and as such is as ester like 4-AcO-DMT. We already have a thread on this so I'm going to merge.

What's up Yaesutom, long time no see. :)
 

yaesutom

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I emailed the vendor and he does say that it should be like 4-AcO-DMT extended a carbon... so propionoxy. I'm excited because maybe this will help figure out whether 4-AcO-DMT is active on its own (i think it is) and would be nice if this one was also a little active just so there's another active thing with a -DMT.
 

Gregorio888

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Hey again,

Thanks for investigating this more everyone. I've had a hell of two weeks and basically forgot everything, so sorry for not having emailed the vendor for clarification. As I've said before the vendor has always gotten everything right with me and is honest in their emails. That said, I just noticed the image they have up for MAL is incorrect as it's actually the image of Proscaline. So clearly the vendor is capable of accidentally putting up the wrong molecular image.

As for the 4-PrO-DMT, I received a small 250mg sample a bit ago. It looks like a dark chocolate coco powder, as least color wise. It is mild/moderately clumpy though, but seems to be easily be chopped up. Given how busy I've been I haven't done more then a sub milligram PO allergy test and sub milligram insulf test, which produced no results as would be as expected for either substance.

Given that there is still some uncertainty about what substance it is, I'll only be using it in very small incremental amounts, since either way it's a new substance. This will likely take me weeks/a couple months to pull off given as it isn't the only compound I'm invested in currently. Also, I like having tried obscure chemicals, though the idea of being the first one (publicly at least) to try something is a bit frightening, since I've yet to see a report of its use so far.

So thanks everyone who's dug up info, I wish I could be of more service then just the sample color, I'll certainly update any progress I make but it will be slow moving at best (and I'm hoping someone beats me to it, lol.)

Peace
 

cj187

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The reason it looks like cocoa powder is because it's degrading rapidly. Somebody else posted a picture of their 4-PrO-DMT a few weeks ago and it was off white, then a few days ago they posted another picture and it had turned brown. If it takes you a few months to work up to a full dose then it might lose most of its potency by that point.

The rapid degradation could mean that it's a freebase instead of fumarate salt which it's claimed to be. The vendor did announce that they were getting freebase 4-AcO-DMT around the time they said they were getting 4-PrO-DMT, so it's possible they were switched. Or it could be 4-PrO-DMT but the manufacturer gave them the freebase form. I think you can test whether it's freebase or salt by seeing if it dissolves in water.
 

DrumTripper

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Is that typical of 4 sub tryptamine? My 5-meo-mipt freebase has been in storage with occasional sampling for about a year now and it’s only starting to look off-white. Is it that the darker, the older, or is that too general?
 

Gregorio888

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Hey, thanks for the info cj

I'm 99% sure mine arrived already browned, though if it is degrading that rapidly that could be the difference of an extra day or two of travel. It did look slightly browner to me upon inspection, though that could have easily been me under the placebo effect. I keep the bag in a sealed bag with a desiccant, inside a second sealed bag with another desiccant, stored outside of light, and the bags are light proof anyway. I'm not able to keep it in a fridge or freezer though given my current living situation.

I have little to work with, so I took 15mg (+/- 1-2mg,) and dissolved it in 15ml, and then added an additional 15ml for a 1:2 mg:ml ratio (which is what I've always done 4-aco-dmt fum at.) With very minimal heat and some stirring, I was able to draw up the solution, without filtering, and it was light/medium brown but clear (with little to no residue left over.) That would suggest it is the fumarate to me.

That said, I'm forgetting my chemistry so I might have screwed up the experiment, since I used sterile NS (Normal saline, aka 0.9% NaCL, which is the standard for most injections.) So now that I'm forgetting my chemistry, I'm wondering if it was freebase, and I just turned it from freebase to HCL form upon mixing? I really should know this, but I'm forgetting if that's what would happen adding a freebase to a normal saline solution. I don't have totally sterile water on hand or I'd redo the experiment. If someone can confirm what the chemistry of a freebase tryptamine in a 0.9% NaCL solution would be, I can try to find some pure H2O to redo the experiment (not sure when I'll get to that though,) or if it's not a problem that would suggest it is the fumarate, at least from this little test.

If someone could confirm the chemistry for me, so I know if I botched the experiment or not I'd appreciate it. Either way, if it is degrading, I think I should move this up the list on what I want work with, though that will still take some time to do safely given the lack of other reports. Either way, thanks again everyone
 

cj187

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NaCl solution is pH neutral. Since it dissolved, I think that means it probably is the fumarate salt. Maybe the propionyl ester is just less stable for some reason.

I looked through the 4-PrO-DiPT thread and found a relevant quote:

Anyone know what kind of a salt the 4-Pro-DiPT that made the rounds was? I've noticed my sample has degraded far faster than my 4-AcO-DiPT. It's been changing colors slightly, so I vacuum packed it. My 4-AcO-DiPT hasn't changed color at all. Just throwing it out there that 4-Pro-DiPT might degrade faster than it's AcO counterpart.

I don't remember what salt my 4-AcO-DiPT is, I think it's HCl. I have it written down, so I could look it up if people are interested.
Edit: I looked up the pH of saline and it actually is acidic
 
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