The Big & Dandy 4-HO/ACO-Tryptamines Comparison Thread

Dave Woodmont

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I'm interested in hearing from people who have experimented with at least two of any of the following:

4-HO-DET; 4-AcO-DET
4-HO-DiPT; 4-AcO-DiPT
4-HO-MiPT; 4-AcO-MiPT

How would you compare the potencies, effects, and dose-response curves of the 4-HO's you have sampled?

Shulgin lists the following in TiHKAL for dosage and duration:

4-HO-DET: 10 - 25 mg, orally (as the indolol, the acetate or the phosphate); 4-6 hours

4-HO-DiPT: 15 - 20 mg, orally; 2-3 hours

4-HO-MiPT: 12 - 25 mg, orally (as the indolol or the acetate); 4-6 hours

Additionally, one of the reports in TiHKAL says that 4-HO-DET is probably less potent at 20 mg than an equal amount of psilocin, and another says that 20 mg of 4-HO-MiPT was stronger than 50 mg of psilocin. But who knows whether these observations would hold true in all subjects? Different people probably have differing receptor subtypes, etc.

Shulgin and others have noted that the acetate ester of 4-HO-DiPT seems to be a bit more potent and have a slightly longer duration. He also notes that the indolol acetates, being sufficiently nonpolar to cross the blood-brain barrier, may be active drugs in their own right.

Someone Who Isn't Me compared two trials each of 4-HO-DiPT and 4-HO-MiPT, +/- 10% on dosages given: SWIM found that 4-HO-DiPT at 20 and 22 mg was roughly equivalent to 13 mg of 4-HO-MiPT, with a nearly identical chronology: very rapid climb from about 15 minutes to half an hour, with a decline beginning before the two hour mark and a notable drop in visuals. Psychedelic effects were mostly gone by the four-hour mark, with residual effects noticed for a few more hours, and difficulty sleeping until at least the eight hour point (likely an idiosyncratic response; SWIM is a lightweight). Both substances were enjoyably visual, with morphing and patterning OEV's and Persian-carpet-type CEV's, and highly prosocial at the dosages tried, with a great deal of mirth (setting was near-ideal, a small gathering of close, experienced friends). One notable difference (apart from which SWIM could not have distinguished the two, aside from milligrammage) was the body load: 4-HO-DiPT produced annoying muscle twitches, with 22 mg being about the max SWIM felt he could tolerate. 4-HO-MiPT, by contrast, produced relatively mild tremors. 4-HO-DiPT may have been a little more euphoric, but that may have been placebo.

Fascinating stuff. Comments?

peace,
Dave
 
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Morninggloryseed

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Well, a lot of it is all subjective. And most of the differences are not things I can really put into words. So no use there. :\ This will be basic...

Ethocin (4-Ho-DET), the acetate, and iprocin (4-Ho-DiPT) all last about the same for me. Iprocin maybe is a little shorter. With both though, pretty much out at three hours. Completely out at four hours. Miprocin (4-Ho-MiPT) lasted a good four and a half hours, with lingering effects for another two hours or so. The acetate seemed the same from what I could tell (took a +1 dose only).

In terms of visuals, the kind of visuals produced are all subjective. Miprocin was the most visual of the three, giving me incredible neon colors and swimming-movement in everything I saw. Ethocin was fairly visual, and iprocin really wasn't beyond, what could be called...archtypical, "basic" movement/disolving. Color enhancement but no "new colors" like miprocin did.

Iprocin was the most ego-disolving of the three, followed by ethocin and the acetate (was the same), and then miprocin. Miprocin was fairly easy to the soul.

In terms of bodyload, I'd have to say I got the most from 4-AcO-DET. I've had flat-out shakes and tremors which frightened me (and why I don't return), and some jaw-clenching. Ethocin seemed less severe, but I've only tried it once. Iprocin was really nice on the body, very sexual and warm. Loved it. Miprocin gave me the feeling of being sufficated and short of breath the last time I took it. I am not sure however if this was not mental, the result of a single experiment. I've only tried miprocin twice. 4-AcO-MiPT was fantastic on the body at the low dose I took.

As I said, the rest is really subjective I think. Miprocin reminded me a lot of mushrooms. It had its differences, but not many. It was quite nice, but I am not sure I can come up with anything to warrent taking it over the fungus.

Iprocin however was different enough from mushrooms to make it interesting in its own right. I certainly like iprocin the best. It was very useful and quite a special tryptamine. I look foward to trying the acetate.

As for ethocin and its acetate, they seemed a little lacking in content. They were not dark, but the trip tended to go in that direction for me. There was also an uncomfortable body trip. I have no further interest in either.
 

PhoenixRising

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I took 14-16mg of 4-Ho-MiPT and I experienced ego death. I was at a party, and this was my first time with the chemical, and I had to have my lover drive me home because I was just overloaded with everything.

I ended up getting stuck in an infinite loop in the bathroom, after I tried tearing it apart to make everything "better." I spent 3 hours or so rewinding the night's events that I had no conscious realization of. I WAS conscious for it, but I didn't know that until AFTER the fact, when I sobered up, and I realized it was NOT a dream after all. 8(

I heard this happened to another, as well. It was extremely powerful, more powerful than 26mg of 2-CE.

I wasn't prepared for that type of trip, but let me tell you, I'd do it again in smaller doses. The visuals were astounding. Don't know much about anything else.

Chris
 

Dave Woodmont

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Thanks, Phoenix and MGS! Phoenix, what you say sounds consistent with Shulgin's reports of 4-HO-MiPT's potency. I bet it has a steep dose-response curve.

MGS -- fantastic summary! (And check your PM's.) I'm curious about relative potency in your experience, as well. How do these stack up, dosage-wise?

peace,
Dave
 

PhoenixRising

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Yeah, it knocked me on my ass. I was surprised. When I woke up in bed, I had spent the past few hours in the shower, going up and down the stairs 3 or 4 times, at the computer for an hour doing some really strange shit.

Only, I did it all in reverse when I "woke up" in bed.
Ugh.
 

Morninggloryseed

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20mg of iprocin was needed for full sparkle. Miprocin was considerably more potent, with 15mg being a full +3. Ethocin as I remember was inconsistant, with 16mg sometimes producing a +2 and other times it would produce a strong +3. This inconsistancy is another reason I don't really like it.
 

MagickalKat777

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PhoenixRising said:
I took 14-16mg of 4-Ho-MiPT and I experienced ego death. I was at a party, and this was my first time with the chemical, and I had to have my lover drive me home because I was just overloaded with everything.

I ended up getting stuck in an infinite loop in the bathroom, after I tried tearing it apart to make everything "better." I spent 3 hours or so rewinding the night's events that I had no conscious realization of. I WAS conscious for it, but I didn't know that until AFTER the fact, when I sobered up, and I realized it was NOT a dream after all. 8(

I heard this happened to another, as well. It was extremely powerful, more powerful than 26mg of 2-CE.

I wasn't prepared for that type of trip, but let me tell you, I'd do it again in smaller doses. The visuals were astounding. Don't know much about anything else.

Chris
Sorry for that man... I truly didn't intend for you to consume it. And I knew that dose was good for Jamie. I'm quite intuitive on these things, you know?

Anyway, I'll be experimenting with this one again sometime soon, once my health is a little bit better.

I did, however, get my ass kicked at 20mg, whereas 44mg of 4-HO-DiPT, 120mg of a-MT, or 40mg of 5-MeO-a-MT couldn't touch. Though the 5-MeO-a-MT came close.

I have a ridiculous tolerance to trypts. Its quite pleasant to find one that kicks my ass at low doses. I would be hesitant to take 20mg ever again. But my 16mg dose was weak. Weird.
 

MagickalKat777

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BTW, I've never had a 4-HO-MiPT trip last less than 5 hours. My most recent one lasted a total of 12, from beginning of effects to the last noticeable effects, with an 8 hour peak.
 

Keret

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^^^^

this difference in duration reminds me of the same variation fuond with iprocin and its esters where some found it to last ~3h while others spoke of ~12h
 

yaesutom

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Well for duration, i'd say 4-ho/aco-det and 4-ho-dipt are about the same. Iprocin is unique, it seems to me, to really be able to connect "you" with the rest of your body. If its the only real +4 i've had ever, it was on a iprocin trip. The +4 was so incredible :) I think Iprocin is the most "useful" out of all of them, for "work", for me anyway.

I recently tried 4-aco-det a couple times, around the 16mg area, and this time i was more impressed. It seems like it has a lot of the great visuals from mushrooms, but...didnt seem to offer that much, but, i'll say this, I think its fun stuff! I'm not sure why I didnt like the 4-ho-det I had before, although i do believe that sample was really...not all 4-ho-det..i'll never know. It lacks the "centered" mushroom body feeling.

Now, 4-ho-mipt, has some major ass whooping potential. Big difference between, 16mg, and 20mg, like whooa! Its got the major mental ass kick that only, and only mushrooms could ever do to me. The body feeling, well there were some jitters on the one 20mg trip i noticed...but overall a good feeling, sorta like "centered" shroomy feeling, but, a little "off" ...(its da damn DMT thing hehe). I did notice a lot of differences between it and mushrooms though..visually different, like colors on mushrooms seem more 'brighter', and on miprocin blues, browns, ....blue-green.. but then i also thought orange.. ahh hard to explain.

After trying these, I sorta wish 4-ho-MET would have been available, my 'guess' is it would be most similar to mushrooms, well, compared to the above. Who knows...
 

gloggawogga

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Yeah I know there are some iprocin reports that lasted a very long time too. Have the materials been lab tested and verified in any of these cases?
 

Dave Woodmont

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Chemically, it's interesting that there are two "midpoints" between 4-HO-DiPT, which has six carbons attached to the N, and psilocin (4-HO-DMT), which has two. If you remove one carbon from each chain, you get 4-HO-DET. If you remove two carbons from one chain, you get 4-HO-MiPT. Both of these have four carbons attached to the N, and both appear, subjectively, to be a little closer to psilocin relative to 4-HO-DiPT.

What do you get when you remove one more carbon from either 4-HO-MiPT or 4-HO-DET? 4-HO-MET, which seems to have been tested only by Shulgin and colleagues, and which he recalled was very similar to psilocin. That would be an interesting one to try. But as Shulgin says, why, if nature is available? It boils down to availability and ease of preparation (and perhaps being foolhardy enough to depart from what is time-tested). That, and some people seem to be connoisseurs of specific compounds, just as some people are really into wines. In fact, that was the genre that the PiHKAL reminded me of the first time I picked it up. :) "Hints of oak and vanilla, with prominent CEV's and a smooth finish."
 
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Piper methysticum

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I have tried 4-AcO-DiPT and 4-HO-DiPT, and I've tried 4-AcO-MiPT and 4-HO-MiPT. I'll have to say that I favor the Hydroxy versions of these chemicals more. I have tried 4-HO-DiPT at 15mgs and at around 25mgs. They were both powerful trips, and they felt very unique. I have only had a taste of its Acetate ester at ~8mgs. At that low of a dose, I couldn't tell that it was any different than Psilocybin/Psilocin. I tried 4-HO-MiPT at 12mgs, and it blew me away in a "this is difficult to handle" kind of way. 20mgs of the Acetate ester was far more intense than the 12mgs of 4-HO-MiPT.

To compare the 4 position DiPT's and the 4 position MiPT's, I'll have to say the MiPT's are more intense in a certain way, though not necessarily better or even more visual/psychological. The MiPT's reminded me more of Psilocybin/Psilocin than the DiPT's at the higher doses, though there were significant differences. However, I had a very beautiful experience with my girlfriend on 15mgs of 4-HO-DiPT that would be hard to top. To me, they all have characters similar to Psilocybin/Psilocin, but they have unique differences, and they all are very worthwhile.

To the above reply, I am very interested in 4-HO-MET, as it is very close in structure to Baeocystin found in some species of Psilocybian mushrooms.
 

Dave Woodmont

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Thanks for those comparisons, Piper. SWIM looks forward to comparing iprocin with its acetate. SWIM actually would like to compare the indolols and the acetates of all three. but that may not be possible. Not no mo'.

Re baeocystin, isn't that just psilocybin minus one methyl group on the amine? See: link (scroll about 2/3 of the way down ... neat page).

edit: as I think about it, maybe you were thinking of 4-HO-methyl-T, which would indeed be baeocystin minus the phosphate ... that would be neat to assay; I don't think Shulgin discusses doing so in TIHKAL. By 4-HO-MET, I was referring to 4-HO-methyl-ethyl-T, however.

peace,
Dave
 
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-neptune-

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4-aco-dipt vs 4-ho-dipt (or the Acetoxy VS Hydroxy group)

Hey so I'm getting a moderate amount of 4-aco-dipt any day now and I was wondering if I could get a a few reports/comparisons from people who have done it and 4-ho-dipt.

//I'm a little saddened to find out after researching it more thoroughly it seems that people are reporting more of a euphoric and less visual and spiritual experience with 4-aco-dipt than with 4-ho-dipt, which was what I was originally looking for.

~I know there's a B&D on this, but the issue doesn't seem clearly resolved there to me. So does that mean the whole theory of the Acetoxy metabolizing into Hydoxy is wrong? are there any ways to test this beyond speculation? What does that mean for Psilocybin, and for 4-ho-dmt to 4-aco-dmt?
 

egor

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4-aco-dipt is longer lived and prone to cause disquieting twitches. They are both unpredictable, but most times euphoric. Both can be relatively transparent, though quite visual on occasion or anytime they are combined with a 2c.
 

TransitEternal

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Agreed. I have had much experience with the aco, and it has thrown me for a loop on many occasions (dosage-wise). For example, I have had a much, much stronger trip from 35mg than from, say 75mg. I would simply chalk this up to random variables like stomach content, etc... but this has happened to me on several occasions and there does not seem to be an obvious link for the cause.

Similarly, the several times I have done iprocin, it too varied widely in its dose ranges.

IMO, the Aco is a little more fun and happy-go-lucky than the Ho, but both can be pretty deep experiences.

Good Luck!
 

love_sex_desire

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4-HO-MET vs. 4-AcO-MET

Has anyone tried both 4-HO-MET and 4-AcO-MET?

I woud love to know the differences between them. I understand that many people prefer the acetoxy versions more than their hydroxy counterpoints, but I'm wondering if the same holds true with the MET analogs.

Any description of effects, comparisons and differences would be appreciated.

The psilocin homologues that I have tried are 4-AcO-DMT and 4-HO-MiPT, so if anyone has experience with these, I would love a comparison of 4-HO/AcO-MET to 4-AcO-DMT and 4-HO-MiPT.
 
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