Tackling the big issues, Suicide.

[kazza_baby]

^^^ go find some figures on how many people die of poverty that those who live in 'pretty good societ[ies]' could prevent, then come and tell me that i have 'an extremely negative view on the world'.

i'm not a pessimist; just a fucking realist.

i'm talking about our society, i.e. Australia, not people that live in 3rd world countries. Australia's rate of homelessness is actually decreasing.

I have worked with homeless men, and some of them seem to have a better view on the world than you do.
I don't see what you hope to gain out of life being so negative.
And i certainly don't see why me not thinking in the same 'negative' thought pattern makes my opinions any less valid.

The very fact that we have homeless people means that they
have actually stuck around, and are trying (although unfortunately often unsuccessfully due to lack of government funding) to get through their problems.
The highest rate of suicide is amongst homeless youth, whereas the older generation seem willing to tough things out.

suffering is suffering. psychological or physical, they're both issues of health are they not? what makes assisted suicide less selfish than an unassisted suicide?

i think a lot of this selfish/unselfish opinion comes down to the fact that mental health is still not viewed in the same light as physical health(thus kazza_baby's comment above), by which i mean mental pain is seen as more tolerable and less affecting of the quality of ones life than physical pain.

edit: added more.

When i say that i think assissted suicide is 'alright' in some instances, i'm refferring to people that a) have only a very short time left and don't want to spend the rest of that time in pain.
b) people that, if kept alive, will remain in a 'vegetable' state. i don't think anyone should have to live like that. that is not a life.

I'm not referring to people who have illnesses that can be treated further, if given more time etc.

 

[Strawberry_lovemuffin]

i think a lot of this selfish/unselfish opinion comes down to the fact that mental health is still not viewed in the same light as physical health(thus kazza_baby's comment above), by which i mean mental pain is seen as more tolerable and less affecting of the quality of ones life than physical pain.

I don't see mental pain as less tolerable, but I do see it as potentially fixable, unlike a terminal illness. The very fact that we have people on here who've attempted suicide and are now in a different mindframe stands witness to the fact that depression can be - if not cured - at least managed.

There is a choice. Whether or not that choice can be seen or recognised by the depressed person is another question. That is the difference.

 

[kazza_baby]

well said.

a lot of people who do this, i don't think have even concidered that there's another way out of their problems. like i said when you're in the cycle it's hard to see, but i honenstly believe there is always another option.

 

[zag0r]

selfishness is subjective by it's very nature - whilst you may perceive an act of suicide as selfish, without knowing the individuals motivation you cannot say whether or not it actually was.
therefore blanket statements like 'suicide is selfish' or 'suicide isn't selfish' are invalid.

if a terminally ill person takes a gun and says "i'm in too much pain so i'm going to kill myself to ease my suffering" then proceeds to commit suicide - you could rightly say that it was a selfish act.
whether or not that makes it wrong, or bad, is a wholly different argument of course.

on a seperate note, i don't think it's difficult to understand how someone can - with perfect mental clarity - end their own life.

Originally posted by onetwothreefour
... the world is, mostly, a pretty horrible place made up of small moments of happiness ...

Originally posted by onetwothreefour
i'm not a pessimist; just a fucking realist.

all imo.

 

[kazza_baby]

selfishness is subjective by it's very nature - whilst you may perceive an act of suicide as selfish, without knowing the individuals motivation you cannot say whether or not it actually was.
therefore blanket statements like 'suicide is selfish' or 'suicide isn't selfish' are invalid.

very true.
i'm not after people trying to prove me right or wrong either way, just interested to hear people's points of view.
as i said, i'm in two minds about it.
it's a confusing issue.

 

[zag0r]

personally i think people committing suicide when their judgement is affected or distorted (ie. by the likes of psychological disorders) is a bad thing.

 

[Raz]

To make things easier, maybe we should say suicide is more self-centric than selfish....I wanted to die when I was 16, but I knew it would destroy my mother if I killed myself, so I used to close my eyes and walk out in front of cars on Nicholson Street in North Fitzroy, and hope it wouldn't hurt too much.

It was a very self-centric thing to do because it was based around my desire to not be miserable anymore...but I refuse to think of it as being selfish, because the whole reason I did it that way was that I knew it would be easier on my mum having a son who died in an accident while crossing the road than it would be for her to deal with having a son who slit his wrists in the bathtub.

Suicide isn't selfish. Suicide is what you do when even drawing breath hurts, and not existing is an acceptable alternative to being in constant pain. The last time I was going to kill myself, the only thing that stopped me was knowing that my flatmate at the time (one of my best friends) would find me, and I didn't want to hurt him like that. If there was a way to kill myself where none of my loved ones would be confronted with it, I would have taken that option many times.

 

[silvia saint]

I don't see mental pain as less tolerable, but I do see it as potentially fixable, unlike a terminal illness.

i agree with that totally, but for some suffering from mental illness, the cocktail of drugs they have to take to manage their illness can infact make life even more unbearable than it was prior to the meds. either that or they become one of the living dead anyway, stuck in a constant zombie like state.

 

[Strawberry_lovemuffin]

^ Yeah I know that... both my cousin and my mum have been on lithium for depression. Mum said it made her feel like a zombie; no lows, but no highs either... an artificial sort of you, with no sense of joy or spontenaity.

My cousin preferred to self medicate than take his meds. First it was weed, then heroin. He died of a heroin overdose. This issue is far more complex than just "get some help, mental pain is fixable", I know.