Tackling the big issues, Suicide.

[tathra]

i suppose. i can see how one could live a full life, stuck in a hospital bed, in constant pain, having machines keep them alive. 8)

you have a point there. the only things i had in mind at the time where the ones where you werent bedridden, like the early stages of cancer, the early stages of AIDS, etc.

and silvia, selfish by definition means you only think of yourself; its got nothing to do with anything deep or theological.

 

[kazza_baby]

^^^You're an idiot... For some suicide is the only option and good on them for taking it. If they really believe that there is no good waiting for them in this existence then do it. It's their life. It's actually the reverse here, people who dont allow people to commit suicide are selfish. It's their choice, not ours, out life is ours to do with what we want, even end it.

that's ridiculous.
how can you possibly give someone a pat on the back for doing this?
i do not believe suicide should be condoned, ever.

What i learnt in my psych class at uni was that a mental illness is caused by biological, psychological and environmental factors (either, or all of the above). Yeah, there are conditions such as schizophrenia, bipolar, ADD etc that are passed down genetically, though it's not always the case 100% of the time.

It's like what comes first, the chicken or the egg. Did the chemical imbalance come first or was it other contributing factors such as environment that then caused the chem imbalance.

yeah, i learnt about the contributing factors too.
generally speaking though it is caused by an imbalance.
from my understanding some people have the imbalance, and other factors worsen their condition.
but like you said, it's near impossible to tell which actually comes first.
then there are others who have depression which is caused by outside factors, which is something completely seperate to having an imbalance.

but each person is different and will have varying degrees of depression, and a different combination of things that caused it.

i suppose. i can see how one could live a full life, stuck in a hospital bed, in constant pain, having machines keep them alive. 8)

assisted suicide for medical reasons is a different kettle of fish altogether, that's not really what i'm reffering to.

 

[Raz]

Okay, fair warning: this is gonna pretty much repeat what 1234 said.

Suicide is selfish. I spent half my life wanting to be dead, and tried it on a few occasions. I knew what effect it would have on the people I loved, but at the time all I cared about was an end to my suffering. I wanted to be with my mum and my nephew, who have died before me.

Sometimes I still want to be with them, and it's a struggle to keep my head above water.

The important thing to remember though is that as much pain as you would feel losing someone you love, think about how much greater that pain must be, that suicidal people are willing to say goodbye to you and everything else that is good in their lives.

How much pain are we meant to cope with for the sake of other people? When are we allowed to find release?

 

[silvia saint]

Originally posted by tathra
and silvia, selfish by definition means you only think of yourself; its got nothing to do with anything deep or theological.

i'm aware of what selfish means. my question was in regard to why so many view suicide as selfish, where such thought stems from.

in quite a few cultures suicide is/was considered honorable and quite often it is/was carried out to not tarnish the character of loved ones left behind, to protect them. therefore in such instances ones actions cannot be considered as selfish.

 

[ButrosButros_Grantos]

^^^Nonsense, I am a genius. See it all comes down to choice. It's our life so why can't we do what we want with it. Surely people on this site would understand what I put forward:

We're all drug users, it's not good for us, in fact it's helping us to the grave that little bit quicker. So are we not by harming ourselves therefore killing ourselves and in doing so we are all committing suicide.

If you hate everything about your life why fucking bother to continue it? People should be free to do what they want, the only reason there is such a stigmata about suicide is because of the fucking christians and them not wanting their soldiers to commit hari kari during times of war, henceforth why it is a sin.

If there was ever a day that I thought things would never improve, that I was stuck in hell instead of purgatory then I would gladly kill myself. Better that than being put in a mental home and becoming a burden upon tax payers...

Yeah!

 

[kazza_baby]

the 'stigma' attatched to suicide does not come just from christian beliefs. that may have been how it started, but as a whole you'll find it comes mainly from those that have lost loved ones because they comitted this act.
you don't have to to be a christian to dislike suicide.

Drug use is not a correct analogy. When people take drugs the emphasis is not on killing themselves. That may be the result for some, but that is not why they start out.

 

[-Thoth]

If your pain and misery was enough, suicide could become a rational act.

Suicide is incredibly painful to those whom are affected by the repercussions. Its horrible to inflict on people, however if living itself is causing such suffering, you would want to think that those people would understand.

 

[silvia saint]

assisted suicide for medical reasons is a different kettle of fish altogether, that's not really what i'm reffering to.

suffering is suffering. psychological or physical, they're both issues of health are they not? what makes assisted suicide less selfish than an unassisted suicide?

i think a lot of this selfish/unselfish opinion comes down to the fact that mental health is still not viewed in the same light as physical health(thus kazza_baby's comment above), by which i mean mental pain is seen as more tolerable and less affecting of the quality of ones life than physical pain.

edit: added more.

 

[silvia saint]

^^^Nonsense

was that directed at me or a previous post?

 

[onetwothreefour]

Originally posted by kazza_baby
that's ridiculous.
how can you possibly give someone a pat on the back for doing this?
i do not believe suicide should be condoned, ever.

no; what you're saying is ridiculous.

certainly i understand the grief that suicide can cause others, but if you honestly can't see that the world is, mostly, a pretty horrible place made up of small moments of happiness, then i doubt you can even comment with validity.

some people just don't have what it takes to deal with what, when it really comes down to it, is a pretty shitty world that we live in, and thus want to end their lives. i don't think that's the best option. in fact, in most situations, i think it's the worst. nonetheless, there are certain situations in which it is clearly the best option to the person making the decision. and beyond that, i can even go so far as to say that i can see their point of view.

i've tried to kill myself before, and i think by mere virtue of the fact that i'm still here you can see that i regret the decision. but that doesn't mean that others couldn't do it with it being the 'right' decision. it's a pretty complex decision, imo, and it doesn't benefit anyone to being in this moralistic 'right' or 'wrong' crap.

 

[onetwothreefour]

jesus i spout a lot of rhetoric. anyone want to cut what i said down to like three sentences for me?

 

[preacha]

life is painful and long
suicide is painless and short
i have a wankerish haircut

there you go 1234

 

[onetwothreefour]

thanks preacha. i love you.

let's have babies, no?

 

[silvia saint]

it's a pretty complex decision, imo, and it doesn't benefit anyone to being in this moralistic 'right' or 'wrong' crap.

i think being into "this moralistic 'right' crap" is only beneficial in the sense that one day we can perhaps pass laws that allow people like Terri Schiavo to die (as they themselves specifically requested if circumstances arose) by more humane methods than starvation.

my real issue which i have expressed in this thread is my objection to the original posts suggesting suicide is selfish.

 

[onetwothreefour]

^^^ oh sure, i agree with that, but is it really moralistic?

i'd see it as the opposite, to an extent, in that by allowing people to make such choices about death is alleviating the decision of any potential 'going to hell'/'going to heaven' moral status, or similar judgements that other religions or ideologies could place on it.

and silvia: you don't think suicide is selfish? of course, apart from the semantics, i agree with your sentiment, but i do think it's a selfish decision; it's placing your opinion above anyone else's. i just don't see anything wrong with that in certain circumstances.

 

[kazza_baby]

no; what you're saying is ridiculous.

certainly i understand the grief that suicide can cause others, but if you honestly can't see that the world is, mostly, a pretty horrible place made up of small moments of happiness, then i doubt you can even comment with validity.

that's an extremley negative view on the world.
i prefer to think that we actually live in a pretty good society, with a few shitcunts that try and ruin it.
yes the world can at times seem like a horrible place, but i think overall the good far outweighs the bad.

i certainly understand (to an extent) why people do this. they are so caught up in their problems that they cannot see any good in the world. they cannot see any reason whatsoever to continue.
i know what they are feeling, i have been there.
i was lucky enough to get out of the cycle eventually, others are not.

maybe that was the right option for them, who knows. but some people don't stick around long enough to even try and get out of the cycle.
although, i realise when you're in it, as much as people try and help you out, sometimes you can't see what they're trying to do for you until it's too late.

but what? you're saying that because i can't "see that the world is, mostly, a pretty horrible place made up of small moments of happiness" that my opinions aren't valid?
that's crap.

 

[onetwothreefour]

^^^ go find some figures on how many people die of poverty that those who live in 'pretty good societ[ies]' could prevent, then come and tell me that i have 'an extremely negative view on the world'.

i'm not a pessimist; just a fucking realist.

 

[silvia saint]

^^^ oh sure, i agree with that, but is it really moralistic?

sorry, i was just accurately quoting you.

and silvia: you don't think suicide is selfish? of course, apart from the semantics, i agree with your sentiment, but i do think it's a selfish decision; it's placing your opinion above anyone else's. i just don't see anything wrong with that in certain circumstances.

the meaning of the word selfish was explained to me a few posts back and by it's most simplified definition you can say suicide is. however i think by looking at the subject in shades of grey it becomes harder to straight out label it as a selfish act, for me anyway, because as you said "in certain circumstances". with all the factors and motives involved, the idea of labelling it as selfish is just too black and white. i'm quite sure a lot of people take their own lives thinking it would be beneficial to others, is that selfish?

i think saying suicide is selfish irks me so much mainly because it inflicts more hardship on the person posthumously or more specifically it inflicts negativity on the memory of that person, diluting and detracting from what they may have endured.

 

[-Thoth]

Alot of people whom commit suicide can be of the opinion that their very existence is a burden to others, and that their course of action is justified.

In any case, if a persons life is pure misery and pain... Who are you to tell them they cant die and end it? Sometimes, like I said, suicide is rational. Look at pained terminal patients...

As someone said earlier, there is a tendancy to believe physical suffering is worse than mental suffering. Thus suicide is diluted into becoming 'voluntry euthenasia' and a noble effort on their behalf to die with dignity. This to me exhibits a terrible moral highground. Those whom are mentally ill and have no reasonable means of treatment, what goes for them? As someone who continues to experience serious depression, I can understand what motivates someone to the act... Devauing it as a 'mereley selfish' perjoritve act undermines who they were and what they had to go through to want to get to that act.
Remember, there are 'cry for help' suicides that never succeed, then there are the cheerfull high acheivers that one day jump in front of a train. I knew one, most talented person I had ever met. But she couldn't do it, she just couldn't do it anymore. I can't feel that she was selfish, when she was easily the most selfless of all people I have known. She just needed to go, and we should understand.

 

[anna!]

We had a thread about this just last month, I'm going to merge the two.