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☮ Social ☮ PD Social Talk Thread: If 2020 Was the Dumpster, Can 2021 Be the Fire?

TripSitterNZ

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btc will never fail at least for a 100 years. the black market that is fueled by crypto is powerful to give it underlying support.

had a dream about mushrooms last night seems to happen always before the season starts a month before. And now i live in shroom mecca. Will probably take one big shroom trip then microdose them if i get enough
 

Xorkoth

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Thing about instant purchases and bitcoin is, it matters not even the slightest bit what the price of BTC is for instant purchases. It could be worth $1 or $1,000,000 and it's all the same if you're buying it and transferring it instantly and then the receiver is liquidating it into fiat currency. But I agree that it is an important use case. Probably THE important use case, actually.
 

Pfafffed

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I was gutted when I learned that Mars is literally covered with poison. Mars is already uninhabitable enough already without adding that to the mix. Wake me up when we have fusion reactors set up on Enceladus.

 

psy997

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The cost is too high. I honestly would rather see a setback in the acceptance of crypto, than for BTC to be placed forward as the gold standard of crypto. If BTC is the choice, then we are premature I'm afraid. If BTC really goes to 1 million like some people think is possible, it will chew through 20x as much energy as it does now. That means that annually, it will consume as much energy as 20 Argentinas. We can't afford that as a planet, it's really really not sustainable. I'd take a 10-30 year setback in crypto acceptance if that's the cost. There's no higher priority than living in harmony with this planet. There is no pressing need to make crypto front and center right now that makes it neccessary to give crypto precedence over the health of our planet. What's the rush?

I understand this position, yes. I guess my feeling is that the positive benefits of the widespread adoption of BTC and crypto could be so massive that they could potentially revolutionize various aspects of society that contribute to lack of human sustainability. More directly, for instance, socio-cultural norms and values, thus shifting consumption and energy use, or, more indirectly, somehow igniting a thought revolution that happens to catalyze a breakthrough in energy tech, etc. etc.

I think your perspective is just as valid as mine, actually. Both are possibilities, for sure. I just think mine is more likely - obviously - considering it's the one I'm currently holding. But thanks for playing with me here, seriously. I think I just got to flesh out my original point in a way I hadn't before, and I also am getting a lot more nuance from hearing you.
 

TripSitterNZ

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Was browsing the internet saw wireless Sennheiser ear buds cheapest online at $188 in NZ every in store physical location all all shops in NZ $549 wtf lmao. I can't believe shops are even charging that that is like x3 the fucking real price. I truly hope no idiot acutally goes and buys anything in physical stores they always scamming customers
 

perpetualdawn

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I understand this position, yes. I guess my feeling is that the positive benefits of the widespread adoption of BTC and crypto could be so massive that they could potentially revolutionize various aspects of society that contribute to lack of human sustainability. More directly, for instance, socio-cultural norms and values, thus shifting consumption and energy use, or, more indirectly, somehow igniting a thought revolution that happens to catalyze a breakthrough in energy tech, etc. etc.

I think your perspective is just as valid as mine, actually. Both are possibilities, for sure. I just think mine is more likely - obviously - considering it's the one I'm currently holding. But thanks for playing with me here, seriously. I think I just got to flesh out my original point in a way I hadn't before, and I also am getting a lot more nuance from hearing you.
I don't know about validity one way or the other, I mean obviously I hold my viewpoint for a reason too. But I actually do think your scenario is closer to how it's actually going to play out. Yeah man fistbumps, I appreciate the civil discussion we're able to hold here in this forum. It's nice to have a place that doesn't automatically degrade into partisan shots across the trenches.
 

Vastness

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If BTC really goes to 1 million like some people think is possible, it will chew through 20x as much energy as it does now. That means that annually, it will consume as much energy as 20 Argentinas. We can't afford that as a planet, it's really really not sustainable.
Since you bring up the energy issue again, I'm curious on your opinion on the energetic wastage that results from video media, that I mentioned previously, but I don't think you responded to. There are other, less energy hungry ways for humans to entertain themselves using the internet, and to convey information, than video, which is extraordinarily unsustainable if we apply the same logic as you do to Bitcoin. If Bitcoin does hit 1 million USD it's role in our world will also be far more significant, so it's kind of untrue IMO that that energy usage is just going to be doing nothing, just as it is kind of untrue now.

What it is doing, it could be doing more efficiently, yes. But again, the same thing applies to video media for the purposes it serves in our world, and the ability to stream HD video, presumably, does NOT rank higher than "living in harmony with the planet", as you put it, and video media is a bigger environmental problem than Bitcoin TODAY, rather than at some hypothetical point in the future.

It still just seems strange to me to focus specifically on the energy usage of a very new computational technology rather than simply the environmental impact of certain ways of generating this energy, which remains the core problem. Despite what you said earlier about it not mattering whether the energy comes from polluting industries or entirely green sources, it's hard for me to see why this is the case, unless you think ANY wastage of energy is inherently wrong - which maybe you do, but this doesn't seem to align with the argument that the problem is it's environmental impact.

Assuming that you didn't and don't speak out against the arguably frivolous use of video media as an unsustainable and environmentally destructive force - which right now, it is, if arguably not due to an inherent problem with the technology - why didn't you, or why don't you?
 

Cream Gravy?

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Was browsing the internet saw wireless Sennheiser ear buds cheapest online at $188 in NZ every in store physical location all all shops in NZ $549 wtf lmao. I can't believe shops are even charging that that is like x3 the fucking real price. I truly hope no idiot acutally goes and buys anything in physical stores they always scamming customers
I'm telling you man Covid tax is real and everywhere. Just spent 50% more than I would have two years back on some car parts to fix up my ride.

You see it in collectables, I found a 1976 US dollar coin made of silver sitting on my friend's desk, some sap on ebay bought one just like it for $1k USD... that's a 1000% mark up, course it's also coin collecting... anyways, DVDs are up, Blurays, used cars, new and used firearms, ammo (finally dropping!!! I found some 5.56 and some .40 S&W finally for lower prices), GPUs, PSUs, Legos.

It's insanely annoying. I just want a few new guns and a GPU so I can pretend I'm shooting them since ammo still out-costs fun per shot lol. .223/5.56 has come below $1/ round finally but back in 2019 you could get it for 15-20 cents/round if you bought bulk. Blerg.
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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I'm telling you man Covid tax is real and everywhere. Just spent 50% more than I would have two years back on some car parts to fix up my ride.

You see it in collectables, I found a 1976 US dollar coin made of silver sitting on my friend's desk, some sap on ebay bought one just like it for $1k USD... that's a 1000% mark up, course it's also coin collecting... anyways, DVDs are up, Blurays, used cars, new and used firearms, ammo (finally dropping!!! I found some 5.56 and some .40 S&W finally for lower prices), GPUs, PSUs, Legos.

It's insanely annoying. I just want a few new guns and a GPU so I can pretend I'm shooting them since ammo still out-costs fun per shot lol. .223/5.56 has come below $1/ round finally but back in 2019 you could get it for 15-20 cents/round if you bought bulk. Blerg.
How can you still be looking for a GPU? =D
The previous generation ones are good too... and you can always go for a second hand one that will last years too if you look well
 

Xorkoth

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Assuming that you didn't and don't speak out against the arguably frivolous use of video media as an unsustainable and environmentally destructive force - which right now, it is, if arguably not due to an inherent problem with the technology - why didn't you, or why don't you?

I know you weren't talking to me, but I'll shoot... while I agree that video streaming is arguably a frivolous usage of energy for entertainment, the thing about it is that it simply requires a certain amount of computational power to stream video. Whereas Bitcoin is simply immensely wasteful, and we currently have many different alternatives that are orders of magnitude less wasteful of energy, that accomplish the exact same thing. So it is unfortunate that it wasn't one of those that ended up the "main" cryptocurrency, instead of it staying with Bitcoin, which is basically antiquated technology.

Of course, back to the topic of wasteful video streaming, we could make improvements there. Netflix doesn't have to stream HD video at the highest possible quality, that is frivolous indeed. I assume people are working on improvements to video algorithm efficiency, but as it stands, people want their super-mega-HD video and they want it NOW. So Netflix (especially Netflix but all of them really) continue to provide it.
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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I will admit that I want my super-mega-HD video everywhere, and I want it now indeed. Luckily encoders improve all the time, but there's a limit.
 

Xorkoth

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I will admit that I want my super-mega-HD video everywhere, and I want it now indeed. Luckily encoders improve all the time, but there's a limit.

Yeah I mean, me too. I suspect most, if not all, of us actually contribute to the same issues we can intellectually have a problem with. Which is a big part of the problems we face. Few people are willing to actually forego convenience, or are too willing to say "fuck it, what difference can one person make?" Of course, I watch Netflix, and it just gives me HD streaming. if it gave me something lower quality I wouldn't care.

Come to think of it, you can choose a lower quality... I think.
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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Tbh, I don't care about how much data I use. I watch water, heat and lights, but internet, good luck peppering that into my addicted brain.

I'd guess YouTube & maybe Twitch data usage is even bigger over the world. I don't like Netflix, they're rewiring our brains when it comes to media intake, their insistence on recommendations instead of decent browsers, slowly removing all the good things for shitty originals, and general babysitting on their platform is frustrating to me.
 

perpetualdawn

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Since you bring up the energy issue again, I'm curious on your opinion on the energetic wastage that results from video media, that I mentioned previously, but I don't think you responded to. There are other, less energy hungry ways for humans to entertain themselves using the internet, and to convey information, than video, which is extraordinarily unsustainable if we apply the same logic as you do to Bitcoin. If Bitcoin does hit 1 million USD it's role in our world will also be far more significant, so it's kind of untrue IMO that that energy usage is just going to be doing nothing, just as it is kind of untrue now.

What it is doing, it could be doing more efficiently, yes. But again, the same thing applies to video media for the purposes it serves in our world, and the ability to stream HD video, presumably, does NOT rank higher than "living in harmony with the planet", as you put it, and video media is a bigger environmental problem than Bitcoin TODAY, rather than at some hypothetical point in the future.

It still just seems strange to me to focus specifically on the energy usage of a very new computational technology rather than simply the environmental impact of certain ways of generating this energy, which remains the core problem. Despite what you said earlier about it not mattering whether the energy comes from polluting industries or entirely green sources, it's hard for me to see why this is the case, unless you think ANY wastage of energy is inherently wrong - which maybe you do, but this doesn't seem to align with the argument that the problem is it's environmental impact.

Assuming that you didn't and don't speak out against the arguably frivolous use of video media as an unsustainable and environmentally destructive force - which right now, it is, if arguably not due to an inherent problem with the technology - why didn't you, or why don't you?

I did see your question, and sorry I didn't address it until now, there's only so much time in the day for typing out thoughtful replies. Yeah the energy usage of video sucks, and it's something that needs to be improved, no doubt about it. We need to talk more about the true cost of all these digital services that we take for granted, myself included, and the public needs to put pressure on Google, Netflix etc to improve this, as well as look at our own consumption. If I was smarter in mathematics and younger in my career I'd love to work on improved video encoding algorithms that could improve the efficiency of video streaming. I know there is a huge incentive to improve these algos, so it's definitely something that's constantly being worked on. I think there's a lot of potential in using AI to resynthesize HD video out of thinner data streams.

The difference vs bitcoin is that we don't have an immediately usable alternative that can provide the same functionality at 1% (or 0.1%, or less) of the energetic cost. That's why it seems like such a no-brainer and tragedy that everyone is so focused on bitcoin right now. There are literally working cryptos, right now, that can do everything that bitcoin can, but better (faster transactions, lower fees), at 1% or less of the cost. If you can find an analogous replacement for current video streaming services, I'd love to be educated. I don't think it exists right now. This is low-hanging fruit.

The other difference is that bitcoin's energy usage scales linearly with the market price of the currency itself, rather than its utility. The network throughput of of bitcoin does not scale linearly along with price, its bottlenecked by the tech. This is a tremendous problem because if the price does 20x to 1 million, it won't be processing more transactions as a result of that higher price (ie providing more utility), it will simply be burning 20x more energy for roughly the same amount of tx.

This would be analogous to youtube burning more energy because google's stock price goes up, with the world as a whole being bandwidth limited to roughly the same amount of TB/s of video streaming as in 2012. It's a pretty fucked dynamic when you have energy consumption tied to its price instead of utility, and you have everyone cheering on a market rally.

Your statement that "if BTC goes to 1 million, its role will be far more significant" is true in the sense that it will be one of the biggest carbon emitters on the planet, and will probably be the largest market cap asset, bigger than gold. However, it won't be powering a significant number of the worlds monetary transactions, because it doesn't scale like that. The vast bulk of transactions will probably be happening on a mixture of the same kinds of payment systems we see now, along with newer cryptos.

You can see BTC's transactions per second here. It's not scaling up significantly since mid 2016.
 

Cream Gravy?

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The previous generation ones are good too... and you can always go for a second hand one that will last years too if you look well
Second hand GPUs older than my current card are selling for hundreds more than I bought mine for originally... so yeah, I'll wait lol
 
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Vastness

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Thanks for your thoughts @perpetualdawn, @Xorkoth. Yeah I guess I get the point, I'll concede video media is not directly comparable, maybe a more analogous example would be if there was a video site built on Wordpress and streaming uncompressed 60fps AVIs with every frame stored as a bitmap, or whatever the setup would be. Not that that situation would ever be workable or anyone even bother streaming from such a monstrosity. I guess I find it hard to get too concerned about energy usage as a primary issue because I'd like to live in an economy of abundance where all energy is from fusion and energy wastage is just not a real concern because it's so abundant. I know that's not the state of the world right now but... yeah I guess I don't have a but.

One other point though you mentioned perpetualdawn about how it wouldn't matter that much if crypto and blockchain technology was set back 10-20 years, I really think it would matter, 10-20 years could be a long time in terms of how far the human species can advance or regress. Human civilisation could be fragile, and we could be on the knife edge between a relatively progressive and free utopian future or a slide backwards into totalitarianism. Cryptocurrency still has a huge potential to democratise finance to some extent, I think, even though I do believe that some kind of central regulation needs to exist eventually. And that being the case, a slide backwards would be a massive opportunity for the current financial system to clamp down and consolidate it's power, probably major fiat institutions would move into the gap left by the failed crypto economy and replace it with something that they could control. I think this would be bad. Not that I think that cryptos are going to be the only thing to make a difference whether we live in a utopia or a dystopia, but their effects on the global financial system could be a factor. Of course, the preservation of the ecosystem of the Earth is a more critical issue than anything when it comes to the survival of the human species, but I still maintain that the source of energy is the major issue here rather than the things that energy is used for further down the line.

For some reason whenever I italicise stuff recently, I get weird random line breaks in the middle of my posts, does anyone else get that? :unsure:
 

Shadow Cat

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Just took 53mgs of Hydrafanil for the first time and since I got terrible sleep last night im hoping that it proves to be effective stimulant at this dosage level. Gonna give it an hour and then possibly take a redose of similar amount. Been reading up on this one for awhile and the shorter duration in comparison to the other "afinils" makes it standout to me. Some people even claim it provides a slight euphoria, we shall see I took about 5mins ago, have a feeling this one will be a winner. Gonna heat up a bowl of Sweet Potato Soup and get something in my stomach incase it kill off my appetite. I'll let you guys know how the trial went later on...
 

Xorkoth

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It would be cool if everyone collectively just decided to transfer all of their capital/focus on some newer generation crypto ad abandon Bitcoin, all at once, together. Of course that's a pipe dream. I get the desire for and value of blockchain technology, or rather, of a trustless decentralized value system of some sort. The fact that credit card processors and banks already prevent us from buying certain things underscores the need quite nicely. I just wish Bitcoin wasn't profoundly archaic and wasteful compared to literally almost any other option that currently exists.

For some reason whenever I italicise stuff recently, I get weird random line breaks in the middle of my posts, does anyone else get that? :unsure:

Yeah, no idea what that's about. Sometimes emojis do it for me, too. Kinda seems like some recent software upgrade is using divs instead of spans or <i> tags to italicize now... though it doesn't explain why it does it with emojis sometimes.
 
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