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☮ Social ☮ PD Social Talk Thread: If 2020 Was the Dumpster, Can 2021 Be the Fire?

Buzz Lightbeer

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Yeah, I don't really know why it's taking so long either.
It does go against much of what bitcoin stands for, with lots of centralized infrastructure, no blockchain, and thus security vulnerabilities...
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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i wish elon musk could keep his fucking mouth shut everything he says is fucking insider trading they need to fine that bastard billions of dollars fucking over his shareholders and everybody holding crypto.
Agreed!
It's not the only thing alike he has done, but apparently people like worshiping a billionaire, and with his Pentagon connections it seems he is untouchable
 

TripSitterNZ

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hes a dangerous man he smokes DMT yet instead of bringing more equality to this world he using it to further his own egoistic agenda of making billions and to take over the world on a global scale from trying to become the no 1 energy no 1 space guy #1 car maker and all the other things his lack of charity and developing the 3rd world is astounding. He does not care about the lay man just how big he can get. Monopolize space.

The man who can see outside the box is a dangerous man when he uses it only to his own advantage while trying to style himself as this messianic figure who is going to led us to colonize the galaxy. Maybe he is just a puppet in this grand game of life maybe human society is structured this way that for us to colonize other planets we need a ruthless company to spearhead the efforts first.
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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Yeah. It's insane how people keep sucking this guys dick because he shares some dumb memes on twitter, it blows my mind.
Tesla also has like 20+ of these side projects that never seem to get anywhere, and yet people still think he's gonna be #1 in every industry.

I also don't know much about the galaxy, but the thing is, is that it feels so pointless now, we're absolutely nowhere with our technology considering that we're only at an advanced technological level for not even 100 years, the only place we're realistically getting to is Mars, and there's nothing at all to do there. And aspiring to go further is impossible right now and will be for ages (tens of generations) until we achieve superior speeds. And that's only one of the many considerations.
I understand the need and want for space travel, but with as much suffering and problems that require money to be thrown at, I find it very much in bad taste. But what do you expect from a narcissist?
 

TripSitterNZ

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on large timescales it is possible with even our current understanding physics say 100k to a million years. By that time we would of advanced alot. I do believe it will be our destiny to colonize the galaxy eventually. I reckon we will colonize another star system by the year 4000. Its pretty fucking crazy how far we came in the last 100 years and the 2000 years since Christ walked the earth humans have progressed at a insane rate. Even the last 21 years has been a huge change in our technology.

How far can we go?. It would be in good faith to quickly become a multi planet species incase the earth suffers a extinction level event. Which it could very well do in the next 1000 years.
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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Yeah man, how far we've come in such short a time is incredible. The absurdity of our situations when you consider the whole history of our planet and also just universe is so epic
 

Vastness

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@perpetualdawn - Bitcoin's energy consumption problems are really not an intrinsic problem with proof-of-work cryptocurrencies, but a problem with the persistence of non-renewable, polluting energy sources in certain parts of the world - specifically China and it's heavy reliance on coal. Lots of things use unclean energy, the current digital underpinnings of fiat currencies and the stock market have an environmental load, albeit probably less than bitcoin mining at present, but this is only a problem as long as power is generated by environmentally unfriendly means. Computationally, brute force, energy hungry processing is easier to do than light, energy efficient programming, and although it's perhaps arguable in a way that more attention should be focused on the latter, a lot of things in our world would probably be a lot less developed and work a lot less well externally if this was the case. The focus on Bitcoin's energy consumption as a specific environmental negative seems to me strange.


Other than that - SpaceX and Tesla are some of the most exciting corporations to exist in a long time. A side effect of Musk's ego is that it seems to result in technologies which are already becoming a great benefit to the human race. I've said this before I'm sure so I won't bother going over it all again but I don't really get the desire to dislike people who have achieved great things, on seemingly quite superficial grounds.
 

perpetualdawn

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Yeah the Elon Musk fanboyism is nauseating. I thought we already hit peak Elon like a year or two ago, but now that he's "the richest man in the world" people want to worship him like a deity.

Not going to lie, I hope humanity makes it to Mars as much as the next sci fi nerd/futurist, and I'm cheering Elon Musk or whoever makes an effort in that department on. But it's a fantasy to think we'll have a viable, meaningful colony there anytime soon. I mean, Antarctica is a much nicer place to live, and way easier to get to, yet nobody lives there. Yeah there are research stations, but I'm pretty sure there are 0 permanent residents, and certainly no self-sustaining settlements.
 

perpetualdawn

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@perpetualdawn - Bitcoin's energy consumption problems are really not an intrinsic problem with proof-of-work cryptocurrencies, but a problem with the persistence of non-renewable, polluting energy sources in certain parts of the world - specifically China and it's heavy reliance on coal. Lots of things use unclean energy, the current digital underpinnings of fiat currencies and the stock market have an environmental load, albeit probably less than bitcoin mining at present, but this is only a problem as long as power is generated by environmentally unfriendly means. Computationally, brute force, energy hungry processing is easier to do than light, energy efficient programming, and although it's perhaps arguable in a way that more attention should be focused on the latter, a lot of things in our world would probably be a lot less developed and work a lot less well externally if this was the case. The focus on Bitcoin's energy consumption as a specific environmental negative seems to me strange.
No it is an intrinsic problem with POW currencies, at least with most of the schemes that use POW. It works like a lottery, and the vast amount of the work burned by miners is discarded to heat providing absolutely nothing of value. It's like a lottery where all the money gets burned, and the winner gets a very fancy pokemon card that they can optionally sell on ebay. No matter if the energy comes from coal, the sun, or a fusion reactor, it's still a massive waste of energy that could have been used for something that adds value.

It's not strange to focus on BTC's energy consumption, what is strange is that hardly anyone is. So many people who are ostensibly concerned with climate change either completely don't want to take a look at it, or pull mental gymnastics to justify this colossal energy pig.

Not to mention the e-waste...
 

Zephyn

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on large timescales it is possible with even our current understanding physics say 100k to a million years. By that time we would of advanced alot. I do believe it will be our destiny to colonize the galaxy eventually. I reckon we will colonize another star system by the year 4000. Its pretty fucking crazy how far we came in the last 100 years and the 2000 years since Christ walked the earth humans have progressed at a insane rate. Even the last 21 years has been a huge change in our technology.

How far can we go?. It would be in good faith to quickly become a multi planet species incase the earth suffers a extinction level event. Which it could very well do in the next 1000 years.
Humanity is not going to last that long, the planet would be destroyed by then or we will have nuclear fallout
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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Other than that - SpaceX and Tesla are some of the most exciting corporations to exist in a long time. A side effect of Musk's ego is that it seems to result in technologies which are already becoming a great benefit to the human race. I've said this before I'm sure so I won't bother going over it all again but I don't really get the desire to dislike people who have achieved great things, on seemingly quite superficial grounds.
How is it superficial grounds? It's not like I dislike him purely because he has a lot of money.
I can agree that SpaceX has done some pretty cool things and I can commend him for his persistence in exploring certain ideas and projects. But this reveling in some sort of amazing genius persona is just extremely annoying, and I am opposed to the worshiping of just about any living human. Much of what he does is in my opinion PR stunts to raise money, shift public perception and get ludicrous tax cuts here and there. As far as I am concerned, these are not superficial grounds to dislike him as a person.

Since my instincts on the matter are highly influenced by the public perception, I understand that I should leave these considerations behind and give more weight to achievements, something I'd probably do with other famous figures. But even those achievements I have a hard time rating as highly, and describing them as a great benefit to the human race is a little over the top imo, he's rarely the only one working in a field.
 
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Buzz Lightbeer

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We do know how to lure you into these threads @Vastness 😏

I could feel it coming, but it really does strike me how you of all people could not be annoyed. Don't overthink the 'of all people' of course
 

psy997

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No it is an intrinsic problem with POW currencies, at least with most of the schemes that use POW. It works like a lottery, and the vast amount of the work burned by miners is discarded to heat providing absolutely nothing of value. It's like a lottery where all the money gets burned, and the winner gets a very fancy pokemon card that they can optionally sell on ebay. No matter if the energy comes from coal, the sun, or a fusion reactor, it's still a massive waste of energy that could have been used for something that adds value.

It's not strange to focus on BTC's energy consumption, what is strange is that hardly anyone is. So many people who are ostensibly concerned with climate change either completely don't want to take a look at it, or pull mental gymnastics to justify this colossal energy pig.

Not to mention the e-waste...

Personally, I don't think the less-than-ideal energy consumption of Bitcoin is enough to damn it. We have no realistic way of predicting the potential magnitude of positive impact resultant from the rise of Bitcoin. We're talking potential paradigm shifts, in numerous domains. It's difficult to imagine the first wave of consequences, let alone the second, third, and so on.
 

Vastness

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We do know how to lure you into these threads @Vastness 😏

I could feel it coming, but it really does strike me how you of all people could not be annoyed. Don't overthink the 'of all people' of course
Hah, OK I'm lured. And no worries, I'll take the "of all people" as a compliment. 😄

But this reveling in some sort of amazing genius persona is just extremely annoying, and I am opposed to the worshiping of just about any living human. Much of what he does is in my opinion PR stunts to raise money, shift public perception and get ludicrous tax cuts here and there.
You dislike his public persona. To me this is superficial. Consider also - Tesla has 0 marketing budget - so PR stunts in this case as effectively an extremely cost effective form of marketing, although to be honest I'm finding it hard to think of what "PR stunts" he's actually done, unless you just mean Twitter. A lot of people point to the Falcon Heavy launch as a PR stunt - it was not, at least not primarily, it was a test launch of a cutting edge heavy lift rocket.

Personally I'm convinced that anyone who can easily dismiss SpaceX and Tesla as "not that impressive" or useful or whatever just hasn't really looked into them enough. The amount of engineering leaps and technological innovation that has happened in such a short time is staggering. SpaceX is frankly in a different league to any other space company and has no serious competitors right now. Additionally, it's not a requirement that you buy into the value of travelling to Mars, or indeed, electric or self driving cars (although the latter is a lot harder for me to understand) for the technologies that these efforts will develop to have immense value in other fields (for example - Tesla battery and proprietary regenerative braking tech).

By many accounts Musk is difficult to work with and his huge ego is real, fine, if anyone here had actually worked with him and was saying they just don't like the dude, fine. I just roll my eyes at people ranting about and abstractly hating public figures they've never met, especially when the specifics of these complaints seem to be pretty vague. A far more interesting discussion obviously (IMO) would be the value of certain technological developments to the human race, but this is just short-circuited by Musk this, Musk that, whatever, oh he said something annoying on Twitter again, I'm fuming! 😉

An example I like to use to illustrate this is Donald Trump. Arguably, his own financial manipulations to set up his doomed casinos in Atlantic City and New York real estate empire were far more shady and morally dubious than anything Musk has done, and hurt a lot more people on the way up. Before they went bankrupt though, they probably employed a lot of people, brought other businesses to the region, whatever, but primarily, who here can say that if they could see a route to having what is essentially a part time job for millions of dollars a year, they wouldn't do it? Maybe some of us here (hopefully) would do things slightly differently, settle with less, cause less collateral damage, whatever, all well and good. I'm getting a bit sidetracked here but the point I'm trying to get to is that even though I personally think a lot of what Trump did back then (let's just forget about his political life entirely for purposes of this discussion) was probably immoral - I don't dislike him, I don't know him. I dislike some things he's done, for sure, but I admit I find myself just dissociating a little from any conversation where people seem to be really angry at him personally, he's so stupid, he this, he that. It just doesn't make sense to me, and interferes with any effort to reach a common understanding for why people do certain things, and how we can stop people from doing things that are detrimental to humanity as a whole - or how we can promote traits which are beneficial to humanity as a whole.

I feel like I'm risking diluting my point by bringing up Trump here but it's hard for me to see that Musk has done that much explicitly harmful to anyone... residents of Boca Chica who didn't want to move, yeah maybe, people who got burned by stock movements caused by Tweets, yeah, maybe, but cheap spaceflight and huge advances in electric cars and autonomous driving, seem like good things to me.

I'm not advocating hero worship obviously, just remaining objective about people we've never met. We always find it easiest to see in others the faults we most fear in ourselves - and I would say that applies to some peoples' fixation on Musk's ego, or sweeping statements about his or anyone else's intentions or inner world that don't seem to be directly based on anything he's actually said.

It just occurred to me I should probably add because it's easily pointed out that I almost certainly wouldn't bother wading into a discussion about Trump in the same way - because I don't think that Trump's actions have value in the same way, so just lazily disliking him as a person has less consequence and is arguably even beneficial in some ways. On the other hand, I do think that the science and engineering advances that have occurred in companies under Musk's leadership have a lot of value, and there's a danger of this value being dismissed as "fanboyism", whereas in most cases, I think (although I could be wrong) what some would label fanboyism is actually just enthusiasm for the works of a group of pioneering technology companies that happen to fall under the leadership of a certain polarising individual.



No it is an intrinsic problem with POW currencies, at least with most of the schemes that use POW. It works like a lottery, and the vast amount of the work burned by miners is discarded to heat providing absolutely nothing of value. It's like a lottery where all the money gets burned, and the winner gets a very fancy pokemon card that they can optionally sell on ebay. No matter if the energy comes from coal, the sun, or a fusion reactor, it's still a massive waste of energy that could have been used for something that adds value.

It's not strange to focus on BTC's energy consumption, what is strange is that hardly anyone is. So many people who are ostensibly concerned with climate change either completely don't want to take a look at it, or pull mental gymnastics to justify this colossal energy pig.

Not to mention the e-waste...
But... Bitcoin does have value. Yes, it has value because people believe it has value but ever since fiat currencies have been uncoupled from precious metals the same is true of fiat. If we could somehow get to a place where we didn't need capital for society to function, we would immediately eliminate a huge amount of arguably wasteful overhead in how human society functions, but given the fact that we seem to live in a capitalist world and there do not seem to be any easy routes to changing that, tokens of capital be they physical and issued by governments or virtual and issued by an algorithm serve a certain purpose, and cryptocurrencies exist because they have properties that fiat currencies do not, and are therefore valuable in different ways.

I wonder if there is a level of power consumption that would be acceptable to you? If the power consumption of Bitcoin-mining was closer to that of digital movement or tracking of fiat currencies, or perhaps other digital industries, would that make a difference?

Consider this also - Bitcoin (according to a quick google) consumes ~121.36 terawatt-hours (TWh) a year. Youtube uses ~243.6 TWh a year, and if you check out that link you'll see an even more specific breakdown of exactly how much energy people are wasting by indulging arguably fairly useless interests.

Video media has a place for sure, there are things that can be communicated effectively by video that cannot be communicated by text. But, not nearly as much as the insane volume of (again, arguably) fairly vapid, repetitive content that exists on YouTube, influencer vlogs, lazy "top ten" compilations, endlessly regurgitated snippets and recuts, of equally vapid content... Should we start trying to curb "useless" video media on the internet because of the environmental impact, replacing redundant videos with text, just flat out deleting huge swaths of some of the aforementioned categories with intrinsic value that is fairly unclear? Perhaps, but if it's strange that hardly anyone is focusing on Bitcoin's energy consumption, it's surely even stranger that hardly anyone is focusing on the energy-waste and consequent environmental impact of video media, which is twice that of Bitcoin on YouTube alone.

If we keep digging we can surely find more arguably wasteful uses of energy facilitated by the internet and digitization. Digital music and/or audio recordings? Not really essential to life, let's scrap it. For that matter, high speed internet is itself a bit of an energy drain, maybe we should all go back to dialup.
 
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Xorkoth

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Some great posts in the past 2 pages. :)

Man I felt awful the past 2 days, yesterday my fever was going between 99 and 102. Today I seem to feel a little better, woke up without a fever. My body is still sore but less so. My lower back is killing me from laying in bed for 2 days. I hope I got lucky and this means I will not be sick very long. Some people I know who got covid were only sick a few days. But then some people were sick for weeks.
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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Hah, OK I'm lured. And no worries, I'll take the "of all people" as a compliment. 😄


You dislike his public persona. To me this is superficial. Consider also - Tesla has 0 marketing budget - so PR stunts in this case as effectively an extremely cost effective form of marketing, although to be honest I'm finding it hard to think of what "PR stunts" he's actually done, unless you just mean Twitter. A lot of people point to the Falcon Heavy launch as a PR stunt - it was not, at least not primarily, it was a test launch of a cutting edge heavy lift rocket.

Personally I'm convinced that anyone who can easily dismiss SpaceX and Tesla as "not that impressive" or useful or whatever just hasn't really looked into them enough. The amount of engineering leaps and technological innovation that has happened in such a short time is staggering. SpaceX is frankly in a different league to any other space company and has no serious competitors right now. Additionally, it's not a requirement that you buy into the value of travelling to Mars, or indeed, electric or self driving cars (although the latter is a lot harder for me to understand) for the technologies that these efforts will develop to have immense value in other fields (for example - Tesla battery and proprietary regenerative braking tech).

By many accounts Musk is difficult to work with and his huge ego is real, fine, if anyone here had actually worked with him and was saying they just don't like the dude, fine. I just roll my eyes at people ranting about and abstractly hating public figures they've never met, especially when the specifics of these complaints seem to be pretty vague. A far more interesting discussion obviously (IMO) would be the value of certain technological developments to the human race, but this is just short-circuited by Musk this, Musk that, whatever, oh he said something annoying on Twitter again, I'm fuming! 😉

An example I like to use to illustrate this is Donald Trump. Arguably, his own financial manipulations to set up his doomed casinos in Atlantic City and New York real estate empire were far more shady and morally dubious than anything Musk has done, and hurt a lot more people on the way up. Before they went bankrupt though, they probably employed a lot of people, brought other businesses to the region, whatever, but primarily, who here can say that if they could see a route to having what is essentially a part time job for millions of dollars a year, they wouldn't do it? Maybe some of us here (hopefully) would do things slightly differently, settle with less, cause less collateral damage, whatever, all well and good. I'm getting a bit sidetracked here but the point I'm trying to get to is that even though I personally think a lot of what Trump did back then (let's just forget about his political life entirely for purposes of this discussion) was probably immoral - I don't dislike him, I don't know him. I dislike some things he's done, for sure, but I admit I find myself just dissociating a little from any conversation where people seem to be really angry at him personally, he's so stupid, he this, he that. It just doesn't make sense to me, and interferes with any effort to reach a common understanding for why people do certain things, and how we can stop people from doing things that are detrimental to humanity as a whole - or how we can promote traits which are beneficial to humanity as a whole.

I feel like I'm risking diluting my point by bringing up Trump here but it's hard for me to see that Musk has done that much explicitly harmful to anyone... residents of Boca Chica who didn't want to move, yeah maybe, people who got burned by stock movements caused by Tweets, yeah, maybe, but cheap spaceflight and huge advances in electric cars and autonomous driving, seem like good things to me.

I'm not advocating hero worship obviously, just remaining objective about people we've never met. We always find it easiest to see in others the faults we most fear in ourselves - and I would say that applies to some peoples' fixation on Musk's ego, or sweeping statements about his or anyone else's intentions or inner world that don't seem to be directly based on anything he's actually said.

It just occurred to me I should probably add because it's easily pointed out that I almost certainly wouldn't bother wading into a discussion about Trump in the same way - because I don't think that Trump's actions have value in the same way, so just lazily disliking him as a person has less consequence and is arguably even beneficial in some ways. On the other hand, I do think that the science and engineering advances that have occurred in companies under Musk's leadership have a lot of value, and there's a danger of this value being dismissed as "fanboyism", whereas in most cases, I think (although I could be wrong) what some would label fanboyism is actually just enthusiasm for the works of a group of pioneering technology companies that happen to fall under the leadership of a certain polarising individual.
Hah, no worries about bringing Trump in, funnily enough quite similar dynamics are at play there. An inkling that public perception may be somewhat clouded... -> so I pushed in the opposite direction.
Firstly, how is disliking a public persona per definition superficial? On what basis should we be liking or disliking quote on quote famous people then? Surely not on a fairly constricted 'achievements' basis alone. I will say though that much of my frustration is fueled by constant over the top praise for Musk for much more than what he is, and what his actual personal achievements are, namely the infallible genius bit. This might be a key disagreement we're in, but I can assure you the distinction between possible personas is always in the back of my mind, I don't care whether or not he is a great guy to be around, and it's also not what we're discussing. This could possibly be a whole topic on its own hah.

You did rightly point out that I might not be armed well enough for these kinds of arguments, and I am well aware, I was close to saying it myself yesterday but I withheld in the knowledge that one should not be admitting weakness if unnecessary! But I have an excellent feel for 'rightly' liking or disliking certain characters, along my own standards of course.

Okay, so there have been years of complaints about working conditions at Tesla, programmers, engineers, factory workers etc.... Mainly about a highly toxic environment, racial and sexual orientation stuff. When workers tried to form a union, Tesla was sabotaging those efforts (like intimidation) and many were fired over the coming months. Regular reports over a toxic and very masculine atmosphere as well as quite dangerous (employees suffering much more injuries than any similar companies) and very strenuous factory working conditions appear.
Musk has also been repeatedly making all sorts of promises constantly, like every couple of months he's saying that in x amount of time he's saying that fully autonomous level 5 self driving cars will be available. If he were to know anything about AI, he would know that Tesla is far far off. He's also often implying like the Tesla autonomous driving is completely safe, so there are many instances of people taking a nap and such, which is extremely unsafe and has led to multiple accidents. The language surrounding the whole thing is also massively misleading, these constant promises and consistent use of 'self driving' is plain wrong and endangers people for some clout and the illusion that their technology is somehow superior, non-surprisingly other companies have repeatedly called them out on this. Tesla's self driving module has also been consistently worse than others over the years, often ranking very low on these tests. When it comes to the cars themselves I'm not really up to date, but I recall having read a lot of terrible comments regarding different Tesla models, namely Tesla 3 and Tesla S, all experiencing severe issues.

One other thing that massively annoys me is just him throwing out all sorts of random statements and one liners just to get to the top of the of the headlines. Stuff like Skynet will be a reality, AI will turn deadly (all those time limits have for sure by now, for some reason he has an inkling to say IN 5 YEARS), AI will apparently be the biggest threat to humanity soon, many ludicrous Mars statements, those time limits appear to be changing on the daily as well. It's also not true that Tesla has 0 dollars invested in marketing, they have 0 dollars invested in advertising, which is much different, their marketing budget is huge. Musk also has some strong astroturfing operations going on, trying to reinforce this fan and even cult like mentality for many.

Then the whole coronavirus thing was quite a mess at his factories, but I can forgive him for that. Does anyone remember the time when he was saying he would make thousands of ventilators for hospitals in the US (after a lot of public pressure on Twitter of course)? Well apparently he never made even one, and Tesla even had the nerve to make a promotional video on making ventilators using Tesla parts, but none were ever made or given. Typical!

This is all I have time for now, but I'll continue tonight, I just found a good article that refreshed my memory on some stuff ;)
I can easily find sources for all of these claims, and will do so later.
 

Xorkoth

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I wonder if there is a level of power consumption that would be acceptable to you? If the power consumption of Bitcoin-mining was closer to that of digital movement or tracking of fiat currencies, or perhaps other digital industries, would that make a difference?

I think the criticism was more the WAY in which BTC uses power. You have millions of machines spending energy trying to solve a computationally intense algorithm, and everyone who doesn't solve it, that energy was wasted. There are, in fact, cryptocurrencies that are not wasteful of energy. Take NANO, for example. It is energy efficient, the transfers happen instantly, and there are no transaction fees. It is actually an improvement upon credit card processors as a currency technology. The wasteful nature of the processing power used in BTC transactions seems unnecessary to me. Since BTC, there have been improvements (of course there have, BTC was the very first). It's my hope that at some point the current hierarchy of cryptocurrencies will change. Right now only BTC is coupled to fiat currencies, and all the rest are coupled to BTC. So if BTC's value falls, everything falls. This is unfortunate because BTC is far from the ideal cryptocurrency technology to actually be used as currency.
 
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