LSD Purity and Effects

[TripSitterNZ]

I used to trip all the time in the 70s. For nostalgia's sake, half moon blotter was the most common. I had a good connection and would get full sheets of Window Pane. You would cut up the squares; it was in a hard gelatin form (purple). Would would let it melt in your mouth...great trips. On Sat nights a bunch of us would go see the laser show at the Planetarium in NYC then get cases of beer and hang out by a small lake in Central Park. We were all nuts and walked through the park in the middle of the night scarring away the muggers and weirdos.

What I loved back then was called Mescalin. It wasnt true Mescalin and could never quite find out what it was. You would buy it in a tiny pill...sometimes you could get what was called "double barrel" which was supposed to be a double dose. You sorta tripped on it but not quite like lsd...was like walking on a cloud. Anyone know what that was?

For the microdot pills it would of been a DOx compound most likely DOM OR DOB and whoever had it was telling every body in the 70s it was mescaline but mescaline doses are large and would not fit in a microdot. It was also on the lower dose scale of the DOx compounds during the double barrel days, during the STP days it was dosed way to high leading to people freaking out.

 

[Phobos]

What I loved back then was called Mescalin. It wasnt true Mescalin and could never quite find out what it was. You would buy it in a tiny pill...sometimes you could get what was called "double barrel" which was supposed to be a double dose. You sorta tripped on it but not quite like lsd...was like walking on a cloud. Anyone know what that was?

I've talked to people that used the word Mescaline to refer to small pills that could not possibly contain that substance as they are far too small, and it really is a ring substituted Phenethylamine like any of the 2C-X, DOX or TMAs.
Difference between Phenethylamines and LSD normally are a slower come up, more visuals but less headspace change, different duration with some types lasting more than 12 hours up into the 18hours, and a more adrenalinic body high,

 

[Sam Stone]

I've talked to people that used the word Mescaline to refer to small pills that could not possibly contain that substance as they are far too small, and it really is a ring substituted Phenethylamine like any of the 2C-X, DOX or TMAs.
Difference between Phenethylamines and LSD normally are a slower come up, more visuals but less headspace change, different duration with some types lasting more than 12 hours up into the 18hours, and a more adrenalinic body high,

Yes, good description of what it felt like. What is strange is one day it was gone and no one had any. Not sure when that was...maybe late 70s or early 80s. Then Angel Dust came along. I lived near Maspeth Queens where a lot of it was made. The next neighborhood over had parks you would go to on a friday night where the dealers would show up... there would be like a hundred people waiting. Afterwards they would all be like walking zombies...

 

[Sam Stone]

I've talked to people that used the word Mescaline to refer to small pills that could not possibly contain that substance as they are far too small, and it really is a ring substituted Phenethylamine like any of the 2C-X, DOX or TMAs.
Difference between Phenethylamines and LSD normally are a slower come up, more visuals but less headspace change, different duration with some types lasting more than 12 hours up into the 18hours, and a more adrenalinic body high,

I was just reading about 2C-I on drugs-forum... sounds like what that was. Said it lasts 4-6 hours which I now remember as being what it was for us. We would take it after school and be fine later in the evening. When taking LSD the trip was much longer. I would always make sure to trip with friends that would stay out till you came down. Coming home while ur still triping sucked...

 

[OntarioGuy]

Probably DOM I'd imagine

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Ive read that alot of what was sold as mesc used to be pcp.

 

[Sam Stone]

Ive read that alot of what was sold as mesc used to be pcp.

Smoked pcp a bunch of times. The effects were completely different. Pcp takes you to another world its so strong.

 

[HoldBack]

LSD is such a complicated synthesis that I do believe a less pure product (that therefore contains more impurities, i.e. intermediates) could have different effects than a more pure batch.

However, this is theory rather than my experience.

 

[Hodor]

LSD is such a complicated synthesis that I do believe a less pure product (that therefore contains more impurities, i.e. intermediates) could have different effects than a more pure batch.

Except Shulgin clearly states that the main impurities in LSD, those being its isomers, are inactive. But what would he know about drug synthesis

From TIHKAL:

Let me mention in passing, that there are three stereoisomers possible for d-LSD. There are d-iso-LSD, l-LSD, and l-iso-LSD. The inversion of the stereochemistry of the attached diethylcarboxyamido group of d-LSD gives the diastereoisomer (d-iso-LSD) which is a frequent synthetic impurity of d-LSD itself. The corresponding optical antipodes l-LSD and l-iso-LSD are also known and have been tasted. All three are completely inactive: d-iso-LSD shows no psychological changes at an oral dose of 4 milligrams; l-LSD none at up to 10 milligrams orally; and l-iso-LSD none at 500 micrograms orally.

As for other impurities, also consider how powerful of a drug LSD is - how many substances do you know that show massive pharmacological activity at a dose of just 100 micrograms? Even a change as small as switching out the diethylamide group of LSD with a dimethylamide group decreases its potency by an order of magnitude; if these minor impurities are supposed to affect the psychedelic experience despite being, well, *minor* impurities, they would have to be active at doses below 10 micrograms, possibly even in the nanogram range.

 

[Phobos]

I was just reading about 2C-I on drugs-forum... sounds like what that was. Said it lasts 4-6 hours which I now remember as being what it was for us. We would take it after school and be fine later in the evening. When taking LSD the trip was much longer. I would always make sure to trip with friends that would stay out till you came down. Coming home while ur still triping sucked...

2C-B also has a short duration, like 6 hours to be sober.

 

[GearoftheYear]

I disagree with LSD being LSD. I've tried lots of different batches over the years and there was definitely a difference in effects - even in identical settings. To say a chemical is just a chemical is incorrect, the synth route plays a role - look at reports on safrole MDMA compared to the MDMA now. It's completely different in effects. There is no reason psychedelics wouldn't be the same. Chances are if you disagree you're just taking LSD that's from the same source. There are many different synth routes for LSD available but the end product is the same. For example the Casey Hardison 'recipe' compared to some of the more lengthy alternatives.

There is iso LSD which affects LSD purity, I found batches with more iso to be heavier and more prone to headaches even when hydrated with a more pronounced comeup. The best batches I've had were apparently refined post-synth to remove the iso-lsd.

Most LSD in recent years has been refined. Heavier batches were much more common before the clean batches became available worldwide around 6-8 years ago. Most LSD comes from the same source nowadays even if it is a different form. Before this batches varied a lot. 'Rose' LSD is the first really clean batch I remember in the last ten years. The main issue nowadays isn't purity, it's misreporting of doses - e.g. blotters advertised as 125ug only being 75-80ug. The ~50ug makes a fair difference effects wise.

It would be incorrect to say that the current street LSD isn't of a very good synth. It is extremely pure. 100mics when properly laid is enough for clear color enhancement and visuals as reported in old medical writing from the sandoz era. Before this the 90s Pickard batches was probably the closest.

What I loved back then was called Mescalin. It wasnt true Mescalin and could never quite find out what it was. You would buy it in a tiny pill...sometimes you could get what was called "double barrel" which was supposed to be a double dose. You sorta tripped on it but not quite like lsd...was like walking on a cloud. Anyone know what that was?

Possibly a DOx compound, they were around back then. DOM was definitely but the duration would have been much longer.

As for other impurities, also consider how powerful of a drug LSD is - how many substances do you know that show massive pharmacological activity at a dose of just 100 micrograms? Even a change as small as switching out the diethylamide group of LSD with a dimethylamide group decreases its potency by an order of magnitude; if these minor impurities are supposed to affect the psychedelic experience despite being, well, *minor* impurities, they would have to be active at doses below 10 micrograms, possibly even in the nanogram range.

Regarding impurities. While they might not be active on their own, that's not to say they become active when ingested in combination with LSD or affect how LSD reacts with the brain. Shulgin was a genuine chemist, I'm sure he would certainly encourage avoiding impurities and refining chemicals to their highest purity. But that's not to say he still wouldn't have ingested them on their own to investigate. I also notice Tihkal waters down a lot of reports, some psychedelics which are very active or excellent psychedelics are reported not to be. I think this is with good reason.

If there is no mention of LSD batches combined with impurities in the Tihkal then I don't think this conclusion is correct and it's clear from his writing on LSD that he was steering clear of it in Tihkal due to the other literature already available. I consider the purpose of the impurity entries in Tihkal to be for highlighting the existence of such chemicals and not on whether combined with LSD they make a difference.

For the users who disagree, have you tried a batch of unrefined LSD and then a refined batch?

 

[Hodor]

To say a chemical is just a chemical is incorrect, the synth route plays a role - look at reports on safrole MDMA compared to the MDMA now. It's completely different in effects.

Yes, I've read reports like that, and it has only affirmed me in my conclusion that the effects of impurities are wayyy overrated compared to a) placebo, b) changes in the user, their set and setting and c) active cuts.

For one thing, there is no such thing as "safrole MDMA". Or rather, "safrole MDMA" is not just "a" thing, but many things.
Safrole can be made into MDMA via hydrohalogenation followed by amination, or it can be oxidized into PMK and subjected to reductive amination, either via the Leuckart route, or using an additional reducing agent. Safrole can also be isomerized into isosafrole and cleaved into piperonal, which can in turn be converted into PMK.

In fact, the route that's commonly used today, based on PMK glycidate? That's just another way to get PMK, from where the reaction can proceed along the same paths (note the plural!) as with PMK made directly from safrole. Also, chances are that PMK glycidate is produced industrially from safrole anyway, meaning that the vast majority of MDMA in the world is, ultimately, "safrole MDMA" anyway.

So if someone tells me that they find that today's MDMA isn't as "stimulating" as it used to be, I chalk that up a) the wondrous effects of "aging" (especially combined with nostalgia) and b) today's highly pure MDMA simply lacking all the active stimulant cuts (meth, amp, caffeine...) that used to be more common in the past.
Also, there's often a placebo element at play, because people tend to think that since safrole is somehow "natural" and "organic", it tends to make a "better" drug because it's been blessed by vibes from Mother Gaia, which is just peak naturalistic fallacy, considering that safrole sure isn't "natural" anymore once its been made into MDMA, and illegal safrole harvesting was an environmental nightmare for the Cambodian rainforest.

At any rate, which of the typical synthesis impurities (which, as I've said, would occur with PMK made from the glycidic ester just like they would occur with PMK made straight from safrole) would you expect to significantly affect the MDMA experience?
N-Methyl-MDMA ("MDDM")? No or at best barely threshold effects at 150 mg, according to Shulgin.
N-Formyl-MDMA? Should be quickly hydrolyzed into plain old MDMA.
Dimerized MDA ("bis[3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-(2-propyl)]amine")? About as likely to be an effective stimulant/empathogen as a pair of conjoined twins is to win a marathon.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Claiming placebo is basicly a copout for people who are closeminded.

Its what scienetists say when dont have a clue bit need to sound smart.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

LSD is a extremly senstive reaction and side product reactions occur if care is not taken. Once you have been eating acid for years on end you encounter all sorts of quality and i have eaten some nasty non purifed crystal before which i kind of enjoyed but body load and foggy come up was meh but peak was still good. The most purest lsd crystal should feel like your sober for 3 hours then hit you like a god dam 747 to the face and you take to the dimension of lsd

 

[GearoftheYear]

Yes, I've read reports like that, and it has only affirmed me in my conclusion that the effects of impurities are wayyy overrated compared to a) placebo, b) changes in the user, their set and setting and c) active cuts.

For one thing, there is no such thing as "safrole MDMA". Or rather, "safrole MDMA" is not just "a" thing, but many things.
Safrole can be made into MDMA via hydrohalogenation followed by amination, or it can be oxidized into PMK and subjected to reductive amination, either via the Leuckart route, or using an additional reducing agent. Safrole can also be isomerized into isosafrole and cleaved into piperonal, which can in turn be converted into PMK.

In fact, the route that's commonly used today, based on PMK glycidate? That's just another way to get PMK, from where the reaction can proceed along the same paths (note the plural!) as with PMK made directly from safrole. Also, chances are that PMK glycidate is produced industrially from safrole anyway, meaning that the vast majority of MDMA in the world is, ultimately, "safrole MDMA" anyway.

So if someone tells me that they find that today's MDMA isn't as "stimulating" as it used to be, I chalk that up a) the wondrous effects of "aging" (especially combined with nostalgia) and b) today's highly pure MDMA simply lacking all the active stimulant cuts (meth, amp, caffeine...) that used to be more common in the past.
Also, there's often a placebo element at play, because people tend to think that since safrole is somehow "natural" and "organic", it tends to make a "better" drug because it's been blessed by vibes from Mother Gaia, which is just peak naturalistic fallacy, considering that safrole sure isn't "natural" anymore once its been made into MDMA, and illegal safrole harvesting was an environmental nightmare for the Cambodian rainforest.

At any rate, which of the typical synthesis impurities (which, as I've said, would occur with PMK made from the glycidic ester just like they would occur with PMK made straight from safrole) would you expect to significantly affect the MDMA experience?
N-Methyl-MDMA ("MDDM")? No or at best barely threshold effects at 150 mg, according to Shulgin.
N-Formyl-MDMA? Should be quickly hydrolyzed into plain old MDMA.
Dimerized MDA ("bis[3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-(2-propyl)]amine")? About as likely to be an effective stimulant/empathogen as a pair of conjoined twins is to win a marathon.

Oh come on, did you seriously interpret that as me saying safrole MDMA literally being safrole-MDMA? Obviously I meant the synth route containing safrole rather than PMK. The reason I mentioned this was to highlight that different precursors and synths yields different results and I would even go as far to say it can have an alter the end chemical. To smear all chemicals as being the exact same when injested just hasn't been what I've experienced and that's for all drug types. I've never had MDMA cut with meth, etc, I think that would drastically alter the effects and is a different discussion.

I don't make MDMA, but if you could make MDMA from safrole, why would you then convert it to PMK. I don't think the PMK comes from safrole. But that's a discussion for another thread and to be honest I'm tired of the MDMA debate. The point was different precursors and synth routes change the final product despite the chemical being the 'same'.

Tolerance/Set and Setting definitely play a role but I still disagree with the whole MDMA is MDMA/LSD is LSD discussion. It's just not what I've experienced.

Regarding impurities being 'inactive', see my previous post about the Tihkal iso-LSD entries. Taking the impurity on it's own does not mean the experience would be the same when combined with what the intended chemical is, it proves nothing other than x impurity is inactive when taken without MDMA. I can't speak for MDMA impurities either, I don't think there is a single answer. Just because iso-lsd influences the LSD trip doesn't mean MDMA impurities would be the same. I was just trying to highlight that this type of discussion isn't restricted to just LSD, it's the same for all drugs.

LSD is a extremly senstive reaction and side product reactions occur if care is not taken. Once you have been eating acid for years on end you encounter all sorts of quality and i have eaten some nasty non purifed crystal before which i kind of enjoyed but body load and foggy come up was meh but peak was still good. The most purest lsd crystal should feel like your sober for 3 hours then hit you like a god dam 747 to the face and you take to the dimension of lsd

Agree completely, this is exactly what I've experienced. It's all great, but if you had a choice the cleaner stuff is much nicer.

 

[Phobos]

The most purest lsd crystal should feel like your sober for 3 hours then hit you like a god dam 747 to the face and you take to the dimension of lsd

Eh? I'm sorry, but this is the first time I read or hear this, everything I can find speaks more of 30-60 minutes for the comeup.
I always notice something at about 35min, but ofcourse the peak is at about T+90min.

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah, pure LSD should begin rather quickly. Although generally I don't peak fully until about 3 hours in.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

Yeah, pure LSD should begin rather quickly. Although generally I don't peak fully until about 3 hours in.

That's what i meant the peak starts at 3 hours but the mind is still clear i usually feel lsd kicking in 30-40mins. But on clean crystal it doesn't stop my way of being i can still go about pretty much feeling sober but feeling the lsd til i peak at 3 hours every time, larger doses i can feel it coming on heavy 20-30mins but the peak will be getting stronger each mintue til it peaks around 3 hours. I feel a false peak at around 90-120min but the true lsd peak hits at 3 hours where the true magic begins. Though in the early days of acid it use to feel to come on stronger and peak stronger the more i got use to it i don't feel the come up as much.

 

[Hodor]

Oh come on, did you seriously interpret that as me saying safrole MDMA literally being safrole-MDMA? Obviously I meant the synth route containing safrole rather than PMK.
(...)
I don't make MDMA, but if you could make MDMA from safrole, why would you then convert it to PMK. I don't think the PMK comes from safrole.

No, I understood you quite well. The problem is that you seem to misunderstand the chemistry here, and/or you're possibly unaware that "PMK" and "PMK glycidate" are not the same substance:

So let me reiterate: For two substances to react, you need one of them to give up electrons, and the other to accept said electrons. Problem is that amines (like methylamine) and alkenes (like safrole) both want to be the one giving up electrons, so they don't react with each other (unless you count hydroamination reactions, which involve extremely sensitive/dangerous/expensive catalysts that are probably way beyond the scope of a clandestine MDMA lab).

*That's* why you need to convert the safrole into something that will accept electrons from the amine. The most common way this is done is to convert it into a ketone, namely piperonyl methyl ketone, also known as "PMK" and "MDP2P".
Since the sale of safrole (to say nothing of PMK) is highly regulated, clandestine labs have, in recent years, switched to buying something called "PMK glycidate", which was not considered a controlled precursor until very recently. PMK glycidate is made from PMK, which is turn made from safrole, by a chemical company licensed to work with these compounds. PMK glycidate can easily be converted back into PMK, which as I said is usually what you'd be making from the safrole anyway.

How you then get from PMK to MDMA is really the more important step in determining which of the more common impurities, like N-Formyl-MDMA, are formed.
It doesn't matter if they made the PMK from safrole themselves (and there also multiple routes for clandestine labs to do that), or if they made it from PMK glycidate, which was also made from safrole (by a chemical company).

Thus, virtually all MDMA is "safrole MDMA". Even if you define "safrole MDMA" as "MDMA produced from safrole in a clandestine lab", it is not a useful definition because there are just so many different synth routes employed to get to MDMA from safrole (or to get from safrole to PMK, for that matter).
It doesn't really make a difference if they went:
Safrole => PMK => MDMA
or
Safrole => PMK glycidate => PMK => MDMA

As I said, what's more important for the impurities profile is how they got from PMK to MDMA.

 

[Hexagon Sun]

The absolute best, cream of the cream, glistering LSD you can eat is foster´s beer LSD

(In the photo, me before synthesizing 10 billion hits)