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Opioids Bernese Method

MUSHET

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Hello,

I've not posted in a long time, I still lurk from time to time as Bluelight continues to be my 'go to' place regarding anything drug related.

I've been on H for almost 4 years now, my girlfriend for 3. The first year I was snorting and dabbling with smoking, eventually I became a full-time chaser. I never thought I'd pick up the needle, but it eventually happened just a few months ago. On a plus side, it's been a major wake up call for me, it's made me realise how much my life, and my girlfriends life, has spiralled out of control. We were living in bubble for a few years, now we're stabbing ourselves 4 time a day - I seem to find a vein okay, but it's been very difficult for my girlfriend, which is the thing that scares me the most, her arms, the constant pain etc., I feel like we're doing damage to her. I weigh out every shot we take, we use clean works every-time, I'm quite OCD that way, but enough is enough now.

We've been on subs before, but the whole 24hr waiting to induct thing we find extremely difficult - so I've been reading about the Bernese Method where H and sub use is overlapped until it meets in the middle, avoiding PWD and the need to be in WD for 24hrs.

For anyone who has ever tried this way, and it's worked, I would be grateful if you would give your thoughts on my plan below:

Day 1 - 0.25mg Bupe (SL) + 1.4g H (divided by 4 shots over the day)
Day 2 - 0.25mg Bupe (SL) + 1.2g H (divided by 4 shots over the day)
Day 3 - 0.5mg Bupe (SL) + 1g H (divided by 4 shots over the day)
Day 4 - 1mg Bupe (SL) (divided twice over the day) + 0.8g H (divided by 4 shots over the day)
Day 5 - 2mg Bupe (SL) (divided twice over the day) + 0.8g H (divided by 4 shots over the day)
Day 6 - 3mg Bupe (SL) (divided twice over the day) + 0.5g H (divided by 4 shots over the day)
Day 7 - 6mg Bupe (SL) (divided twice over the day) + First day of no H
Day 8 - 8mg Bupe (SL) (divided twice over the day) + Second day of no H

The idea is to micro-dose Bupe, as it has a longer half life than H it will build in your system, but as you are taking small doses at first it will avoid PWD, plus the need to wait 24hrs in pain. On day 7 if I feel fine I will not bother upping the dose to 8mg, I could even lower it and play around until I feel fine on the lowest dose.

Has anyone tried this and been successful, it's been attempted in Sweden (I think), you can Google the reports online. Some folk have mentioned it on Bluelight before, but they seem to start at higher doses than recommended which would lead to PWD.

Cheers!
 

MUSHET

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So... thought I'd journal the Bernese Method that I'm attempting here, if it works then it might help people induct easier to subs, if It doesn't then I'll be in a world of pain by day 3 or 4...

Started 'Day 1' yesterday - took a shot around 6pm the night before of .35g H, usually I'd take another before bed, but didn't and took a few benzos, tossed and turned a bit, drifted in and out of sleep until about 6am yesterday morning, was sweating, needing a shot. Before I did this I took 0.25mg of Bupe SL as planned, then proceeded with normal morning shot. Yesterday has felt no different than normal. No PWD. Took two more 0.35 shots of H throughout day: 12am and 8pm-ish.

'Day 2' of Bernese Method - Woke up around 6am, took 0.5mg (instead of second day of 0.25mg) of Bupe SL - no PWD - then proceeded to take 0.3g of H (drop in usual amount). Feel fine just now, will edit post later when I take other shots of H. Yesterday I only took 3 shots of my usual amount all day, I had planned this around my normal 4 shots. Edit: Took shots of H 0.3g 11.45am & 7pm-ish

'Day 3' tomorrow - Will take 1mg Bupe in morning, then drop daily shots of H to 0.25g.

Will keep editing this post daily until I have a result - good or bad.
 
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Speed King

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It sounds like it is working for you. You are posting quite early. I expect that you will get more people replying later today. If it is working for you, great. I suggest you take your time and use caution. Be careful with what you are doing. Cheers.
 

MUSHET

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It sounds like it is working for you. You are posting quite early. I expect that you will get more people replying later today. If it is working for you, great. I suggest you take your time and use caution. Be careful with what you are doing. Cheers.
Thanks for replying, I posted the original post with the daily plan a couple of weeks back, but I was just waiting on the right time to start the process. I know that it can be dicey mixing Bupe and H due to PWD, but the way this Bernese Method works should avoid it. I'm a bit worried about when the doses of Bupe get a bit higher, that might be the point where things could go south (hopefully not), but by that point the Bupe should have built up in my system from the daily microdosing until that point.

I'm surprised that The Bernese Method hasn't been discussed more on Bluelight, when I do a search it doesn't come up a lot!

It's only 'Day 2' now, 12noon here in UK - so with Bupes long half-life I should have around 0.75mg in my body, which is a small amount.
 

Speed King

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Well, we'll look into the method you are talking about. I am interested in it. If the micro dosing is working for you, then keep going slow. That may be the answer right there.
Like I said before, it is early on the other side of the pond. you will get more replies in the next few hours. I'm happy you are doing what you have to do to get clean.
 

MUSHET

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'Day 3' of Bernese Method yesterday - Took 1.25mg Bupe in morning, then 3 shots of 0.25g H throughout day. Felt slight soreness in back last night, but nothing too severe.

'Day 4' - Took 2mg of Bupe this morning and have had two shots of 0.2g H today - one shot at 6am after bupe and another at 11ish (slightly earlier than usual). Feeling more sore today than last few, think today and tomorrow will be more of a struggle.

'Day 5' - Took 4mg bupe in morning, the H should be getting blocked by that point, but the bupe has been building in my system. Edit: Ended up taking another 2mg bupe throughout day, so total of 6mg - no PWD. Also upped H slightly to cover residual WDs so had further two 0.25g of H shots.

Overall so far it's been going well, H use had been dropping and sub use increasing daily.
 
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Speed King

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I never had to deal with bupe and H thankfully. No matter what you do, I would expect you to have soreness in different parts of your body simply because at times you may have sat for long periods of time without moving, or the fact that you may have overused your back due to all the morphine in your body/ blocked pain signals.

You sound like things are progressing good for you. It seems the more you are able to lower your the H in your system, the better and less likely you will have issues with the bupe.

I will study up on this further for the sake of knowing how to address this in the future, but congratulations are in order for sticking with your taper plan.

The main comment I would like to add is remember that your body is adjusting to the changes you are making. Keep that in mind and your taper has a very high rate of being successful.

Looking forward to hearing your progress reports.
 

Jekyl Anhydride

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Yes this is a great thread to have since the induction is what scares so many off of utilizing Suboxone. I've posted this link many times for others to look into but have never heard anything back on whether it was utilized or not. Thanks again.

This is the link I prefer over of the two:


Use of microdoses for induction of buprenorphine treatment with overlapping full opioid agonist use: the Bernese method

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4959756/
 

cj

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You guys are brave. I just wouldn't risk PWD like that. You have to account for so many variables too. It just seems like playing with fire.

That said once you get over a milligrams of sub and aren't in PW it's safe to just make the switch fully instead of doing more heroin.
 

MUSHET

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*Edited last post I made to to include changes made to Day 5*


'Day 6' Bernese Method - Woke up later today than usual, around 8ish... didn't feel as bad for fiending for a fix as i normally do around 6am! Took 8mg of Bupe SL... actually felt not bad, was thinking this could be the day I drop H completely and will stabilise over next few days on 8mg. About an hour later the 'voice in my head' told me to have a shot, I probably won't feel it anyway. So took 0.25g shot of H. Now, I was quite surprised because I felt something although significantly reduced, got the taste etc.


I think the battle will be more psychological from here on now... maybe I should stick to 8mg bupe or up to 12mg tomorrow, I'm not sure. However there needs to be a time now where I actually put down the gear and just stick with bupe.

If you look at my actual original plan in the first post, I have deviated from it, I think in the end once stable I'll do a post with the actual plan that was carried out and the doses of Bupe and H I took daily clearly listed out. There's been no PWD, I just hope once I eventually stop taking H that this will potentially help others that are scared of the normal 24hr waiting to induct to bupe - it's too much for some, that's why I'm trying this approach, I've failed at inducting 'normally' countless times.
 
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MUSHET

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Yes this is a great thread to have since the induction is what scares so many off of utilizing Suboxone. I've posted this link many times for others to look into but have never heard anything back on whether it was utilized or not. Thanks again.

This is the link I prefer over of the two:


Use of microdoses for induction of buprenorphine treatment with overlapping full opioid agonist use: the Bernese method

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4959756/
Yep, that's the exact link I've studied and read and what made my mind up to give it a go.
 

MUSHET

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'Day 7-10' Bernese Method - Right, I've been continuing taking Bupe, took 12mg on 'Day 7' which was Sun, then went back to 8mg on 'Day 8' until today. On days 7 & 8 the H use kept going but didn't increase. I stupidly ran out of benzos, which have become another wee issue that needs to be dealt with, but one thing at a time! My usual supplier has went off radar, and it was probably the worst thing that could happen while trying to come off H onto subs. It's been going well, but the way I was feeling felt like I was heading into WDs, even with the amount of Bupe in my system. To be honest, I think it was actually the beginnings of benzo WD and I was taking H to mask any ill feeling (which seemed to work and calm down the increasing panic). I smoked the H a couple of times too, instead of hitting the needle, so that i suppose is a good thing.

Anyway, once I eventually got benzos sorted on 'Day 8', by 'Day 9' I felt fine... I even managed to get ready and went out for lunch with my mum which would have been impossible on days 7/8!

'Day 10' today - Took 8mg again... I should really be able to put the H down down, it's pointless (although it did help take the edge off the wee benzo crisis for for 48hrs, even if it was psychological).

I'm not giving up with this. In the past the I would've given up with the Bupe and talked myself into going back on H, because I had to meet my mum, or I had something to do, blah blah, etc etc. I've been taking Bupe everyday for over a week now, started off small and now on 8mg. I shouldn't need any H.
 

mtop2036

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How are you not getting pwd? I get taking micro doses of bupe to avoid pwd but how are you not getting sick with taking those large doses of bupe then doing heroin and back to bupe the next day? I must be missing something here
 

Jekyl Anhydride

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How are you not getting pwd? I get taking micro doses of bupe to avoid pwd but how are you not getting sick with taking those large doses of bupe then doing heroin and back to bupe the next day? I must be missing something here
IMO it's because the Bupe and H are roommates instead of the Bupe evicting the H, trashing the house in the process and taking the bupe a few days to start patching up the house again. Poor analogy but my take on the process as Bupe is used in conjunction with full agonists for pain control, you just can't come crashing in on full agonists without at least some bupe already in your system and need to let them work together in appropriate ratios.


Sounds like it's shaping up well MUSHET, keep the updates a comin'. :)
 

MUSHET

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How are you not getting pwd? I get taking micro doses of bupe to avoid pwd but how are you not getting sick with taking those large doses of bupe then doing heroin and back to bupe the next day? I must be missing something here
It's because I'm past the point of PWD happening now... in my experience PWD only happens when you have no Bupe currently in your system - for example, you've been taking H for months and develop a habit, then one day after taking your usual H you take a sub and BAM, the H gets ripped off your receptors and you're in PWD. In the past when I've been on subs (but not taking getting clean that seriously), I'd sometimes not take my subs for a day or two and take H instead, but because I was stabilised on my subs I could continue taking them after a one or two day break and still not get PWD - this can only ever be a one or two day break though, if you stop taking subs/bupe for any longer during a 'break' you then put yourself into danger of PWD as the Bupe levels in your system will drop too much.

I'm not getting PWD now because I've been taking Bupe for over a week now, so I've probably essentially stabilised and because of Bupes half-life theres a constant level of Bupe in my system, so I can take H and not suffer PWD when I take a dose of Bupe the next day. However, any H 'high' I get is significantly reduced because of the Bupe attached to my receptors. It's all psychological now, I just need to carry on with the Bupe and take the jump from the H... any need for it is all in my head as I'm feeling fine without it, but the monkey keeps whispering into my ear.

IMO it's because the Bupe and H are roommates instead of the Bupe evicting the H, trashing the house in the process and taking the bupe a few days to start patching up the house again. Poor analogy but my take on the process as Bupe is used in conjunction with full agonists for pain control, you just can't come crashing in on full agonists without at least some bupe already in your system and need to let them work together in appropriate ratios.


Sounds like it's shaping up well MUSHET, keep the updates a comin'. :)
Yes, exactly, theres enough Bupe in my system to avoid PWD. I've been taking 8mg doses for days now, so metaphorically the Bupe is 'running the house' and the H just 'pops in to say hello', but instead of being booted out it leaves on good terms.
 
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Scubasteve614

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This is true, I've done this while on subs. I only go through PWD when I have zero sub in my system. This method is what I've been doing off and on for the last year, never knew it had a name though. Lol
 

Speed King

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Agreed. You seem to be ata good point now. Just jump. you may have some symptoms,, but that little bit is expected. It is nothing you cannot get over, IMO.OP
 

Kmccartttt

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Thank you for the day to day postings. This was a really interesting and rare read. Not many people have to the balls to try this method due to fear of PWD. Another thing however, everyone?s different. I know people who can take a sub after 12 hours an be fine. Also I know people who can take a sub at 21-22 hours an go into precipitation. It all depends on your body I guess. That?s the only thing holding me back from experimenting with this method.

Anyways, I had been on subs for 5 days an had a 2 day vacation like the idiotic addict I am. I?m hoping I can take a sub at my 24 hour mark today without experiencing WD in general. I keep getting 4-5-6 days on the subs an as soon as I feel normal again I take a trip. Insanity. I?m gonna shoot for the moon this time. It?s getting old and I?m sick of hearing my norm of a GF bitch. Lol



Lastly, congrats on the successful Bernese method. Prettty incredible. It?s almost like outsmarting heroin addiction lol I?m out of here though. Later guys!



-SouthShoreMassachussetts
 
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