New Member, Please Help. (Opioid Questions)

[fishoutofwater]

*Sorry this is so long...PLEASE READ AND REPLY*

Past experience with Opioids/drugs:

I took my first opioids back in June 2010 after a surgery. I noticed when taking them for pain the euphoria experienced. Having never even (to this day) drank or smoked weed (I know, holy shit), I'm definitely a little naive to drug culture. That said, I've always been interested in pharmacology, etc. I have spent the past week reading threads all over this site about opioid use, particularly: safe use, potentiation, and tolerance. I can probably count on both hands the amount of times I've got high on either Hydro or Oxy (maybe a few more), but seem to have developed a decent tolerance that has come back fast.

Concerning my tolerance, I remember last time around, which was about a year or so ago, I got high off of 25 - 35 mg just fine (couldn't say whether it was Hydro or Oxy; I know Oxy is more potent). This time around, granted I started dosing 10mg Oxy 2 - 3 times a day to manage pain just over a week ago, I started with around 30mg Oxy (percocet) and got a good high that lasted around 3 - 4 hours. Then I went to 40mg I believe the next day and got a similar, perhaps less euphoric high. Then a third day in a row (Sat. night) I took around 50mg w/800mg cimetidine 1 hour prior & 1 Benadryl at the same time (I remember in a 24 hour period I was over 4,000 mg acetaminophen, which I know put me at risk for liver damage), but this time the high was surprisingly less potent. To be sure, during these 3 days I wasn't taking any Oxy in between doses and got a refill of just Oxy with no acetaminophen just before the last dose.

Anyway, needless to say I was really surprised and bothered that it seemed my tolerance has raised so quickly when I really haven't used much at all my whole life. So I started reading everything I could find on here about tolerance, as well as potentiation. And though I came across a lot of interesting stuff, I was confused and disappointed with the difference of opinion I found. I've read everything from people using 1 - 2 times a week for years, never needing to up their dose (from like 20mg!), to people who didn't use for a year and their tolerance comes back within a few highs to 100mg+ (I realize a huge factor here is the frequency of using). There were a few clear things learned, like how opioid tolerance increases quickly with consistent use, but mostly my reading led to more and more confusion and disappointment. So anyway, with all this in mind, I would appreciate some knowledgeable and experienced feedback on these issues (i.e., tolerance/potentiation relative to my information). Specifically, how I can effectually use the last 220mg of Oxycodone (I doubt I can get another refill and don't have access to opioids otherwise). I am now about 4 days of zero opioid use. (Last use was Saturday night, if I remember correctly...)

Current Medications (I've read about the interactions, but they are very vague):

Morning/Day: 60mg Duloxetine (i.e., Cymbalta), 150mg bupropion XL (i.e., Wellbutrin XL), 1800mg gabapentin (i.e., Neurontin)
*I've actually read from several sources that taking Neurontin before Morphine and Hydrocodone decreases the absorption by about 22%! I don't know how this applies to other opiates, but it must be somewhat similar. (Conversely, taking Neurontin after said opioids increased absorption of gapapentin by 44%.)

At Night: 10mg Diazepam (i.e., Valium), 0.5mg Triazolam (i.e., Halcion)
*I've experimented with different SSRIs and Atypical Anti-Depressants and taken the benzos for almost a year now. I bring this up because I wonder if my benzodiazepine tolerance has effected my opioid tolerance at all since I've taken these benzos everyday for almost a year.

Height: 6'0" Weight: 180lbs

I apologize for the long post. I just wanted to share all the info necessary to get the right answers. Also, I realize there is no "perfect" answer because these things differ from person to person. Your help is appreciated.

 

[Crankinit]

*I've experimented with different SSRIs and Atypical Anti-Depressants and taken the benzos for almost a year now. I bring this up because I wonder if my benzodiazepine tolerance has effected my opioid tolerance at all since I've taken these benzos everyday for almost a year.

I wouldn't worry about this, they're very different drugs which affect entirely different sets of receptors.

Tolerance is a tricky thing, it's not well understood scientifically, it varies for everyone and it certainly isn't linear.

My experience has been that the biggest leaps in tolerance come when you first start using and increasing your dose, even if you aren't using constantly, and when you use a significantly more potent version of a drug in the same category (even at equipotent doses, no idea why this is the case, but it is). My first two years of opiate use my tolerance climbed constantly, despite inconsistent use (often going months without getting high, or periods where I'd only take codeine or weaker opiates), it kept climbing and climbing and climbing, until I had to eat 200mg of oxycodone to get a satisfying high. Finally I said fuck it and taught myself how to use a needle (the breaking point was when I bought a quantity which a few months ago would get me 3 or 4 days of solid nodding, only to go through it in 24 hours), and to my amazement (there's this idea out there that Oxy has a 90% oral BA or some nonsense and that there's no point in injecting them) I got a better high from shooting 100mg than I did from eating 200. Then to my continued amazement, I spent the next 8 or 9 months shooting up at every opportunity (about 2 days out of 3), and right up until the end when my doctor convinced me to go onto suboxone, I never felt the need to shoot more than 100mg. My tolerance just plateaued. When I spent 4 or 5 months the next year skipping off my suboxone every second weekend or so to shoot up, my tolerance still hadn't changed by so much as a milligram.
Anyway I'm not just sharing my love affair with oxy for the hell of it - point being, tolerance is just fucking weird. There are some general rules that tend to hold up, but anyone who tells you they understand it fully is lying.

On another note, neurontin is an odd chemical. I've read a bit about it and some of the stuff it does to the brain, and I didn't feel at all comfortable taking it despite the relief it gave me from back pain. On the other hand, there's an 11 page thread in the Other Drugs forum full of people swearing it makes them feel great if they take enough. But certainly don't stop taking it long term cold turkey if you're worried it's interfering with your opiates, it can have severe withdrawal symptoms. But skipping a dose or two can't hurt, it has a short half life iirc.

 

[TheLostBoys]

^^^^^^

Like he mentioned above, tolerance is a very tricky subject.......everyone body is different.

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

The people that have been consistent for years have probably accepted that they aren't going to get crazy euphoria every time. They are most likely satisfied with a mild buzz. If you aren't trying to chase that massive euphoria you get from large doses your tolerance will reflect that. Like previously said there are so many variables in tolerance that it's impossible to tell how you will react, but being cautious is always good.

 

[fishoutofwater]

Thanks for the responses. Especially yours, Crankinit. There seems to be no doubt about the elusiveness of tolerance. I definitely won't be using a needle, though my father is an anesthesiologist, because I'm just so inexperienced with drugs and only plan to use this last 220mg of Oxy (though I realize that would probably be the most efficient use of it). I've read a lot about potentiation, I wonder if you have any thoughts on my other thread here: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/725827-Oxycodone-Potentiation-Recipe-Questions-(e-g-Is-it-safe-)

(Side-note on Neurontin: Your thoughts on Neurontin are similar to mine. Interestingly, I'm still not even sure why I was prescribed it, because as far as I understand it's an anti-epileptic drug with a few secondary uses, none of which apply to me. The explanation I received is it will help my anxiety and possibly sleep by "calming down my brain." At that point, it didn't seem like a very "potent" or "dangerous" drug at all. I was even wondering why it needed a script. At first take, it sounded like a supplement you could just go buy at Whole Foods. Anyway, I'm curious now why you stopped taking it after it seemed to help with your back pain? What exactly are you weary of? I've been taking 1800mg a day for quite awhile now and don't notice anything from it at all, so who knows what effects it's having on me. I haven't taken it the past 48 hours or so and haven't noticed anything severe, but definitely don't feel great. I stopped after I read how it significantly affects the BA of Oxy because I plan to take some tonight. I'm going to take 1800mg sometime after I take the Oxy.)

Interesting point about the euphoria chasing, falsifiedhypothesi. I just feel like I have used so little, not just opioids but drugs in general, that that euphoria shouldn't need such a high dose for me.

So with all this said and considered, what would you guys say is the best course of action tonight in terms of dosage knowing that I only have 220mg left and won't get more? Do I really need to go higher than 40-50mg? Is it a waste to take 40mg and if I don't feel much to take 10-15mg more after about 45m? (I know re-dosing is often a total waste with opioids.)

(Again, I have done a lot of research regarding potentiation to help me get more out of what I have and have a discussion going here: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/725827-Oxycodone-Potentiation-Recipe-Questions-(e-g-Is-it-safe-)

 

[Numb19]

The reason you are confused about the concept of opiate/oid tolerance is because there is no definitive or conclusive research on it and it is still something that is very much misunderstood as far as the specific mechanics. There is some research but nothing that suggests any type of breakthrough.

I also find that when you stop using the pills for analgesia and take them for fun, tolerance tends to skyrocket. Furthermore, when using in consecutive days, this is also a way to rapidly increase your tolerance.

Other factors to consider are how your body may have metabolized vs. previous times with the bioavailability that can vary. Were both doses taken in the same physical condition (i.e. full stomach or empty stomach etc)? Taking it on a full stomach for example can make a huge difference.

The best way honestly to get the best and most of out your pills and not get into trouble is to take them as needed for pain but I get it, we all do. So at least try not to take them everyday or in consecutive days. Also, if you regularly took opiates the week before 2-3 times daily then this also can effect your tolerance if you start taking pills very soon after again.

I'd give yourself a 2-3 day break and I think you can start feeling the effects better.

 

[Crankinit]

The people that have been consistent for years have probably accepted that they aren't going to get crazy euphoria every time. They are most likely satisfied with a mild buzz.

I can't speak for years and years, but I had 9 months of consistent dosing I described and I was still getting strong euphoria and nodding the entire time. It wasn't that I made the decision to just accept a lesser high, I just somehow ended up getting the high I wanted every time without increasing my dose. Strangely I even had a near miss with an OD once on an even lower dose (80mg, which I'd sometimes find fine) because I still had some nitrazepam in my system from the night before. Luckily I had a friend with me who managed to wake me back up.

Thanks for the responses. Especially yours, Crankinit. There seems to be no doubt about the elusiveness of tolerance. I definitely won't be using a needle, though my father is an anesthesiologist, because I'm just so inexperienced with drugs and only plan to use this last 220mg of Oxy (though I realize that would probably be the most efficient use of it). I've read a lot about potentiation, I wonder if you have any thoughts on my other thread here: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/...Is-it-safe-)

Oh, I certainly wasn't suggesting that you take up injecting, or that injecting is what halted the development of my tolerance, sorry if I gave you that impression. In fact, I've read a lot of reports of people who claim that their tolerance skyrockets after they make the swap to injecting, and they end up taking as much or more than they were before. As far as potentiation goes, I never found anything that worked well on oxy, sorry to say.

(Side-note on Neurontin: Your thoughts on Neurontin are similar to mine. Interestingly, I'm still not even sure why I was prescribed it, because as far as I understand it's an anti-epileptic drug with a few secondary uses, none of which apply to me. The explanation I received is it will help my anxiety and possibly sleep by "calming down my brain." At that point, it didn't seem like a very "potent" or "dangerous" drug at all. I was even wondering why it needed a script. At first take, it sounded like a supplement you could just go buy at Whole Foods. Anyway, I'm curious now why you stopped taking it after it seemed to help with your back pain? What exactly are you weary of? I've been taking 1800mg a day for quite awhile now and don't notice anything from it at all, so who knows what effects it's having on me. I haven't taken it the past 48 hours or so and haven't noticed anything severe, but definitely don't feel great. I stopped after I read how it significantly affects the BA of Oxy because I plan to take some tonight. I'm going to take 1800mg sometime after I take the Oxy.)

Yeah, it's not a well understood drug, going off my memory, it originally started as an anti-epileptic and a drug for nerve pain, but doctors soon started prescribing it for anxiety off label. As I said it (and it's more potent cousin, lyrica) helped a bit with my back pain, but they made me feel a little fuzzy, mentally, and actually worsened my anxiety a little bit. Then I read some papers about how neurontin and lyrica stop new nerve endings growing, or something to that effect, and some other unusual neurological effects, and decided the relief wasn't worth the risk that it might turn out to be some kind of psychiatric thalidomide. Read up on the history of the drug and how it was developed and promoted by Pfizer, there's some disturbing stuff there there, even for people more trusting of the pharmaceutical industry than I.

 

[fishoutofwater]

The reason you are confused about the concept of opiate/oid tolerance is because there is no definitive or conclusive research on it and it is still something that is very much misunderstood as far as the specific mechanics. There is some research but nothing that suggests any type of breakthrough.

Yes, I understand that tolerance is "just fucking weird," as I mentioned its elusiveness above. I'm just trying to get as many experienced people's experience with tolerance because I have very little and so far my tolerance doesn't seem to make sense to me.

I also find that when you stop using the pills for analgesia and take them for fun, tolerance tends to skyrocket. Furthermore, when using in consecutive days, this is also a way to rapidly increase your tolerance.

This is one of those seemingly widely experienced principles of tolerance, which is why I plan to: A) Only use 1 - 2 a week until I'm out; B) Try and figure out the optimal minimum starting dosage given my past experience and others' advice, as well as use potentiation chemicals.

Other factors to consider are how your body may have metabolized vs. previous times with the bioavailability that can vary. Were both doses taken in the same physical condition (i.e. full stomach or empty stomach etc)? Taking it on a full stomach for example can make a huge difference.

This is a very important point and one that I'm finding is the most important variable in my opioid tolerance and experience. Though I've only been used them and been high off of them during 5 different SHORT periods in my life spread over the last 4 years, having not had any opioids for a year or so, my tolerance seems quite high. BUT, I wasn't on all these other scripts as mentioned above the previous times. More importantly, I'm still asking about the food/stomach issue! Nobody has answered my question whether there is a by in large agreed upon state of which to take the Oxy--full stomach or empty (I've heard both). Especially my question over on my potentiation thread about what and when to eat (e.g., fatty foods with lipids that help absorb the Oxy)?

The best way honestly to get the best and most of out your pills and not get into trouble is to take them as needed for pain but I get it, we all do. So at least try not to take them everyday or in consecutive days. Also, if you regularly took opiates the week before 2-3 times daily then this also can effect your tolerance if you start taking pills very soon after again.

I think the fact that I was taking them already the few days prior for pain (10mg every 4 hours) before I decided I wanted to try and get high played a role in my confusion and disappointment (i.e., my tolerance came back during that time). Of course, I think I was just worried about running out too quickly and not being able to manage the pain from my surgery, but I'm past that point now with 220mg Oxy left and over 5 days of no opioids at all.

 

[Numb19]

I don't think taking oxy, at least orally, will be stronger when taken on a full stomach. Having said that, I do remember reading that eating some fatty foods 2-3 hours prior or right after dosing might can increase the effects by up to 30% but again everyone is different. You will probably have to play around with this but it is only logical to consider that on a full stomach, the oxycodone is going to compete with all that food for metabolization.

 

[fishoutofwater]

As far as potentiation goes, I never found anything that worked well on oxy, sorry to say.

Have you read my thread on potentiation? If not, you really should and share your take on it. I for one would be really interested in what you have to say. I guess since you were using IV you were less interested in possible potentiators. But what I have on there I am convinced works, mostly from the study cited on grapefruit juice and the near 100s of threads I've read on potentiators for Oxy.

Yeah, it's not a well understood drug, going off my memory, it originally started as an anti-epileptic and a drug for nerve pain, but doctors soon started prescribing it for anxiety off label. As I said it (and it's more potent cousin, lyrica) helped a bit with my back pain, but they made me feel a little fuzzy, mentally, and actually worsened my anxiety a little bit. Then I read some papers about how neurontin and lyrica stop new nerve endings growing, or something to that effect, and some other unusual neurological effects, and decided the relief wasn't worth the risk that it might turn out to be some kind of psychiatric thalidomide. Read up on the history of the drug and how it was developed and promoted by Pfizer, there's some disturbing stuff there there, even for people more trusting of the pharmaceutical industry than I.

This is very interesting to me, if for no other reasons than I'm not sure if Neurontin is helping (or hurting) me and it's an expensive co-pay compared to other drugs (in part because of the high dosage, perhaps). Could you possibly share those articles you read with me? Either post here or if it's annoying people since it's off topic maybe (not completely since it is a significant reducer of Oxy BA when taken before by ~22%) PM me? What do you mean by "end up being a psychiatric thalidomide," by the way? I am seeing my psychiatrist soon enough and would like to present him with these findings and hear what he has to say. He's a very well regarded clinician and researcher with a ton of experience. (I'm wondering if I should try Lyrica?)

*Anyway, I plan to use some Oxy tomorrow and am curious your final thoughts. To comment on that, without ending this discussion hopefully, please go to this thread and tell me what you think: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...ons-(e-g-Is-it-safe-)?p=12410326#post12410326

 

[Lorne???]

Well as others have mentioned, tolerance is a tricky thing that is not fully understood. We do know that it functions via multiple mechanisms(with the body developing both neurological and metabolic tolerance, and possibly cellular, as well) though that is outside the realm of this discussion.

I understand your problem, but, exactly what are you asking?

Are you asking me what dose/doses I personally recommend? I am experience with oxycodone, via all 3 of the useful MOA's, and I do nearly a decade of use, at all sorts of doses. And combined with my peripheral knowledge, I'd be more than happy to write up a dose regimen, but I need to know your goal? A mild buzz, or great euphoria, or high as hell nodding off?

Finally, I need to know what type of oxy you have. You say you just picked some up without APAP? So I'm assuming they are oxycodone IR tablets(aka roxicodone, or oxynorm)?

If so, what strength are they?

Answer that and I''ll make a rec.

 

[fishoutofwater]

I'm basically asking you, "If you were me and have 220mg of Oxycodone, given what you know about my tolerance, how would you use it?" This could be given in maybe scenario 1, scenario 2, etc. I guess most of all I want to experience the "euphoria" I seemed to think I experienced when I first got high off of either Hydro or Oxy. I'd also like to experience what it's like to be "high as hell, nodding off," though I'm not even sure what that means or looks like. haha. But I don't want to waste any of what I have left. And a "mild buzz" doesn't sound that great, unless it lasts long and would allow me to get more use out of my meds. Oh, and I just have the 5mg Oxycodone IR tablets that say K|18 on them (http://www.drugs.com/imprints/k-18-15461.html).

To give a bit more context, I've played college basketball for the past four years and was just surprised with what might be a career ending foot surgery. I'm stuck on crutches for the next 5 weeks (it's been 10 days since surgery; I've just been lying around depressed; I'm usually lifting 90 minutes/day, 7 days a week and playing basketball most days) and so I wouldn't mind being high while I'm in this state. Does this make sense?

OH! Also, what is your favorite thing to do while on an Oxy high? Is it bad to dose when you're really tired like I am now? Do you just like to lay down or watch a movie or what?

(There's a slight possibility I could get another refill but probably not, my father being a friend of my doctor and being a doctor himself notwithstanding. And I don't think I'd ever get involved with a drug dealer...)

 

[spyhunter2]

i am also prescribed Nerontin, for anxiety, I am currently at 1200mg 3 times a day and i notice if i miss a dose i become extreamly angry or short with people, it is similar to not having a cigarette for me, i just get angry, but other than that it doesnt really do much for me unless i have an opiate which it really makes work better!

 

[fishoutofwater]

Lorne, did you read my last post? ^

 

[fishoutofwater]

Lorne, sorry I disappeared for awhile. Life got crazy. But here I am, back with more Oxy and some Hydro.

I wanted to see if I noticed the more sedative difference between Hydro and more stimulating Oxy, so I tried 75mg of Hydro two nights ago with our potentiation recipe (gallon of WGJ, a gram of Cimetidine, & tums, with 37.5mg of Diphenhydramine) and it was nice. I took it pretty late and ended up falling asleep 5 or 6 hours later. But by then I felt like the high was gone anyway. That may seem like a high dose, but two weeks or so ago when we talked I did the same with 50mg Oxy and was a little disappointed. This time I even added 10mg Oxy on top of the 75mg Hydro about an hour in. (Seemed like a waste.)

I'm still chasing that Euphoria I originally experienced with Opiates years ago. I have 150mg Hydro left and 290mg Oxy (I got a refill for the pain from surgery.) I'm still blown away that my tolerance seems to be so high as I've only been high on opiates maybe 10 - 15 times in 3 - 4 years. Though I was using about 25mg of Oxy a day three weeks ago for post-surgery pain. I've also been taking 60mg DMX everyday to try to lower my tolerance.

I read about you and others being high for 6 hours+ and I just don't get it. I mean, I've drank 2+ gallons of WGJ in the past three days, taken a gram of Cimetidine everyday with Tums, and added the DMX, etc. (By the way, I read about the 1-3 gen anti-histamine differences and am curious why you said I should stick to 1st gen. That is, I still take Claritin (Loratadine, 2nd gen) and Allegra Allergy (Fexofenadine, 3rd gen) to help with the itch. I realize these aren't synergistically helping my high like 1st gen Diphenhydramine and Doxylamine Succinate, but are these anti-histamines "dirtying my high" somehow??)

So what do I need to do to get the Euphoria? Or is it not coming back since I lost my Opiate virginity? And in that case, what dosage should I take today to get the best high without complications or falling asleep? Does it surprise you at all that my tolerance seems to be so high? (I don't get how people can use 2 - 3 times a month or so without upping their dose every time to enjoy it...)

Taken dose in 3 hours or so! I just finished another half gallon of WGJ and gram of Cimetidine. Your advice would be helpful! You have enough context and seem to really know your stuff, as well as a lot of experience.

 

[Lorne???]

50mg oxy isn't a huge dose, increase it.

This is strange though. Tell me, before, when you took oxy, was the high short and intense? This is important.

(And as I said, I can't PM you, but I think you are dirtying the high with so many damn substances).

 

[fishoutofwater]

What should increase it to? I would say the high two weeks ago on Oxy was not short and intense; it was more mild and long if I recall correctly (at least less intense than my expectations; and shorter than my expectations too, because of the potentiation.).

What about the anti-histmamines? I take the Claritin because the itch was really bad the first recent high and then also the Allegra to see if it would help, too. I'm always sure to take the dose at least 3 hours after eating...

 

[Lorne???]

I mean't before you ever started using cimetidine/p450 inhibitors. Was it short and intense then?

It is possible, albeit unlikely, you are an ultra-rapid 2D6 metabolized, and therefore got a decent dose of oxymorphone, which is 10-15x as potent as oxycodone with a shorter half-life. But that is speculation, unlikely and it has never been proven with oxycodone specifically if an ultra rapid metabolizer would even get a significant yield of oxymorphone. Read up on it yourself.

I don't really feel comfortable stating an e act dose, if you really weren't high then 1.5x is easily doable; however opioids are not for everybody; once you lose you're "opioid virginity" you never gain it back, and for some people opioids just aren't that euphoric, so keep that in mind.

If they are pure oxy(no APAP) and they are IR, try snorting, it hits much faster, and most people(especially IRL) find it more euphoric.

 

[fishoutofwater]

Oh. Before is so hard to say, since it's been over a year or so and I didn't know much about opiates/pharmacology then. I couldn't even tell you if I got the euphoria from Oxy or Hydro, though I think it was Hydro originally. It's possible that the original highs with euphoria were shorter. I do remember wishing they lasted much longer; I'd say they were 2 - 3 hours with an hour or so of euphoria on 25mg of Hydro. (That's an interesting speculation. If it is true, is there anything I can do about it?)

I don't think I want to try snorting, though my Oxy has no APAP. I don't have any experience snorting anything and everywhere I read says it decreases the BA. I'd rather the high last longer than be quick and more intense. Though maybe at the end I'll try snorting whatever I have left after I take a break for awhile. (I would need a simple rundown on the best way to do it.)

I still have 150mg of Hydro, but because they are 7.5/325APAP, I can't go much higher than what I did two nights ago--75mg, which made 3,250mg APAP. So should I combine them with Oxy to increase the dose? Or should I just take the Oxy by itself and take another 75mg of Hydro after I take a break (how long do you think it would take for 75mg of Hydro to get me high again?)?

You never commented on the anti-histamine questions. Should I not take Claritin and Allegra for the itch? Was the ONLY reason you said previously stick to 1st gen anti-histamines was because they are what synergistically help the high? Or are they known for some strange reason to dirty the high?

(If texting is easier and you think you could help or teach me some things PM me now and I could give you my #. This has become an interesting, safe pharmacology experiment for me.)

 

[Lorne???]

The half-life, and duration, of intranasal oxycodone is exactly the same as oral. The BA is also about the same; both average around 50%; oral is slightly higher but it's not something that a lot of people could even notice.

It's worth a shot though, for done people it really is more effective, but, with all the potentiation oral probably is best.

Yeah, sure, I'll PM it to you, why not.