Explanation of this post on Wild Dagga as an Adenosine Reuptake Inhibator

[Mycophile]

I just bought some Klip Dagga which I am probably going to experiment with soon and I found this old thread on Wild Dagga as an adenosine reuptake inhibitor and was trying to understand what this term means?

This post also talks about caffeine being an "antagonist to Wild Dagga".

Does this mean that caffeine stops Dagga from working or having it's full effect or vice versa, that Dagga stops caffeine from having it's full effect?


Any interpretations of the following post would be appreciated:


"I have been comparing the molecular structure of leonurine, the principal alkaloid from Wild dagga, Klip daggaetc. in order to find structural similarities with an existing drug with a known pharmacological profile.
I finally hit a gold mine: two of the existing adenosine reuptake inhibitors are basically two molecules of leonurine stitched together at the double amine tail (save for a hydroxyl group being substituted for by a methoxy group.)
Take a look!

Do you think my hypothesis that leonurine acts as an adenosine uptake inhibitor is complete bullshit, or could there be some truth to it?
Caffeine, an adenosine receptor competitive antagonist, should then antagonize the effects leonurine, which makes the hypothesis easily testable by bioassays. I just smoked myself retarded in wild dagga, and I'm now going to down a few glasses of cola. But my results will mean nothing scientifically, they will only be mildly interesting at best. Hopefully a real study will be carried out one day.

Edit: as additional circumstantial evidence for my hypothesis, leonurine has been shown to protect against all kinds of ischemias^{1 2}, which adenosine also does^{3 4}."

Source 1
Source 2

Source 3
Source 4

 

[DL-ark]

this is intresting as the A2A receptor has a lot of activity with CB1 and GluR5 (aswell as several dopamine receptors)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2268059/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2635338/

The CB1 activity would explain why it is often described as being similar to cannabis in effect.

 

[Mycophile]

^^^

I'm sorry but I wasn't able to understand those links.


What does it mean when people say Wild Dagga is an "Adenosine Reuptake inhibitor?"

What is Adenosine anyway?

And what does it mean that it's a "caffeine antagonist"?

 

[ebola?]

There are transporters on some cell membranes which 'grab' onto adenosine and pull it into the cell. Something in Wild Dagga inhibits these transporters, increasing synaptic adenosine. Caffeine works by antagonizing adenosine, so it works in a way that opposes Wild Dagga's activity. As a rough analogy, you can think of concurrent use of a classical stimulant and anti-psychotic.

ebola

 

[Mycophile]

There are transporters on some cell membranes which 'grab' onto adenosine and pull it into the cell. Something in Wild Dagga inhibits these transporters, increasing synaptic adenosine. Caffeine works by antagonizing adenosine, so it works in a way that opposes Wild Dagga's activity. As a rough analogy, you can think of concurrent use of a classical stimulant and anti-psychotic.

ebola

Ok, so is it dangerous to use wild dagga while on caffeine and will the two cancel out the effects of eachother?

Or can they be safely combined and will I still be able to experience the effects of the other at the same time?

 

[DL-ark]

Ok, so is it dangerous to use wild dagga while on caffeine and will the two cancel out the effects of eachother?

Or can they be safely combined and will I still be able to experience the effects of the other at the same time?

If leonurine (the presumed active component of wild dagga) is in fact an adenosine RI, then combining it with a fair amount of caffeine would probably yield only slight stimulation from the caffeine. You would likely not experience both effects at the same time. Combining the to would not be healthful due to wild dagga's toxicological effects on organs and blood cells.

 

[Mycophile]

If leonurine (the presumed active component of wild dagga) is in fact an adenosine RI, then combining it with a fair amount of caffeine would probably yield only slight stimulation from the caffeine. You would likely not experience both effects at the same time. Combining the to would not be healthful due to wild dagga's toxicological effects on organs and blood cells.

On no!!

But I drink about 5 cups of coffee a day and I'm interested in experimenting with klip dagga I have. I wouldn't take the two at EXACTLY the same time but I'd have a fair amount of caffeine in my system while taking Klip Dagga. I mean most people consume some amount of caffeine. I'd have to assume MOST people who have used Klip Dagga or Wild Dagga may have had SOME caffeine in their system while using it.

What would happen if I did use some Wild Dagga?

You mean if I'm on caffeine suddenly the effect of the caffeine is going to dissapear?

And what negative health effects could happen to me from smoking some wild dagga????

It seems like a fairly benign substance.

Would the health effects be life threatening?

I have a hard time believing that combining something as seemingly mild as Wild Dagga with caffeine could be so dangerous.

Most studies on Wild Dagga and Klip Dagga seem to indicate it's effects are similar to but even weaker than Marijuanna and Cannabis isn't dangerous to combine with caffeine so I don't get why Wild or Klip Dagga would be.

 

[Mycophile]

^^^^

I found this on wikipedia, but it says in LARGE doses, in RATS, Wild Dagga is harmful...that doesn't seem to indicate that vaporizing small amounts for human beings could be dangerous.

"An animal study in rats indicated that in high doses, lion's tail has significant toxicological adverse effects on organs, red blood cells, white blood cells and other important bodily functions."

 

[DL-ark]

^^^^

I found this on wikipedia, but it says in LARGE doses, in RATS, Wild Dagga is harmful...that doesn't seem to indicate that vaporizing small amounts for human beings could be dangerous.

"An animal study in rats indicated that in high doses, lion's tail has significant toxicological adverse effects on organs, red blood cells, white blood cells and other important bodily functions."

You are absolutely right but irregardless if you aren't affected by it, and it causes any degree of harm - what is the point of using it in the first place? What is the point of using it in the first place if you aren't affected by it, regardless of toxicity?

I am trying to do some harm reduction here.

 

[Mycophile]

You are absolutely right but irregardless if you aren't affected by it, and it causes any degree of harm - what is the point of using it in the first place? What is the point of using it in the first place if you aren't affected by it, regardless of toxicity?

I am trying to do some harm reduction here.

Well if it has zero positive effects and is harmful there would be no point.

However, all drugs have SOME negative side effects so the beneficial effects must be weighed against the negative ones.

We don't really know if it would or wouldn't work with caffeine, but with it seeming to be fairly benign in small doses there seems no point in not experimenting with small amounts and I don't know how much HR is necessary here unless you were to hear that I was considering smoking it all day long or making a tea with an ounce and drinking all of it in one sitting haha.

Maybe it would be worth trying it when NOT on caffeine, but I'm always on caffeine so that is hard haha.

I try to experiment with things that seem like they won't have many negative side effects.

 

[DL-ark]

Well if it has zero positive effects and is harmful there would be no point.

However, all drugs have SOME negative side effects so the beneficial effects must be weighed against the negative ones.

We don't really know if it would or wouldn't work with caffeine, but with it seeming to be fairly benign in small doses there seems no point in not experimenting with small amounts and I don't know how much HR is necessary here unless you were to hear that I was considering smoking it all day long or making a tea with an ounce and drinking all of it in one sitting haha.

Maybe it would be worth trying it when NOT on caffeine, but I'm always on caffeine so that is hard haha.

I try to experiment with things that seem like they won't have many negative side effects.

Of course it is just a theory that caffeine would block it.

BTW I cant message you ATM as I am a greenlighter, but I have some great info for you.

 

[Mycophile]

Of course it is just a theory that caffeine would block it.

BTW I cant message you ATM as I am a greenlighter, but I have some great info for you.

Oh well post it here by all means.

Did Wild Dagga have a good effect for you?

I have Klip Dagga by the way which is silghtly different by related.

I doubt it will do all that much but maybe combined with other stuff like Mugwort, Kratom and Nitrous it could be interesting I'm thinking.

 

[DL-ark]

Oh well post it here by all means.

Did Wild Dagga have a good effect for you?

I have Klip Dagga by the way which is silghtly different by related.

I doubt it will do all that much but maybe combined with other stuff like Mugwort, Kratom and Nitrous it could be interesting I'm thinking.

I actually recently consumed it orally, broke up and pressed the leaves into some vegetable oil, then poured this oil in some lightly boiling water and let the water boil and heat the oil, as I too had heard it had to be activated like THC. Consuming it in the form of a waffle cooked with dagga oil yielded some light effects, while drinking it straight had a very interesting effect, but was absolutely disgusting.

Over the course of a couple hours I felt only light sedation and light dissociation, however I started to feel a rather strong euphoria, which lasted upwards of 2 hours, this was accompanied by very happy mood.

I then learned that leonurine is very soluble in water, so I boiled up some wild dagga tea, which I have not tested yet. Drinking dagga infused oil is one of the most disgusting things on earth, wild dagga tastes so bad - combine that with the texture of vegetable oil.

I used about 2-3 ounces of leaves and stem, which do have many trichomes but less so than the flowers. It still generated an effect which was a pleasant surprise.

 

[Mycophile]

I actually recently consumed it orally, broke up and pressed the leaves into some vegetable oil, then poured this oil in some lightly boiling water and let the water boil and heat the oil, as I too had heard it had to be activated like THC. Consuming it in the form of a waffle cooked with dagga oil yielded some light effects, while drinking it straight had a very interesting effect, but was absolutely disgusting.

Over the course of a couple hours I felt only light sedation and light dissociation, however I started to feel a rather strong euphoria, which lasted upwards of 2 hours, this was accompanied by very happy mood.

I then learned that leonurine is very soluble in water, so I boiled up some wild dagga tea, which I have not tested yet. Drinking dagga infused oil is one of the most disgusting things on earth, wild dagga tastes so bad - combine that with the texture of vegetable oil.

I used about 2-3 ounces of leaves and stem, which do have many trichomes but less so than the flowers. It still generated an effect which was a pleasant surprise.

Hmmm,

So I have some Klip Dagga powder. How do you think I could take it in for best effects?

I vaporized a small amount which didn't do much, but it was very very little.

I'm wondering if I should: 1) Just vape more 2) Make tea or 3) just swallow some of the powder raw and wash it down with some juice like I do with Kratom.

I don't know if the leaves were burned in any way to get to the point of being in the powder form and since I don't know if it needs to be burned I don't know if swallowing it will do anything or get me sick.

Eating Kratom in powder form works, but eating weed doesn't, so I don't know.

I only have about an oz or less, so I wouldn't be ingesting a very large amount.

No offense, but it's kind of funny that you gave me the HR speech about not using this stuff because it SUPPOSEDLY can be dangerous in large amounts when you just consumed 3 ounces...

That's Probably A LOT more than I'd want to consume for something with a profile like that haha...

Also, if it even IS true at all that it has less effect if someone has caffeine in them I'm wondering if I should try to vape it first thing in the morning before drinking coffee to see if it has more effect...but I figure first I should at least vape a larger amount to see what happens.

Most people say it doesn't do much, but it must have got it's reputation for a mild high SOMEWHERE...

 

[DL-ark]

Hmmm,

So I have some Klip Dagga powder. How do you think I could take it in for best effects?

I vaporized a small amount which didn't do much, but it was very very little.

I'm wondering if I should: 1) Just vape more 2) Make tea or 3) just swallow some of the powder raw and wash it down with some juice like I do with Kratom.

I don't know if the leaves were burned in any way to get to the point of being in the powder form and since I don't know if it needs to be burned I don't know if swallowing it will do anything or get me sick.

Eating Kratom in powder form works, but eating weed doesn't, so I don't know.

I only have about an oz or less, so I wouldn't be ingesting a very large amount.

No offense, but it's kind of funny that you gave me the HR speech about not using this stuff because it SUPPOSEDLY can be dangerous in large amounts when you just consumed 3 ounces...

That's Probably A LOT more than I'd want to consume for something with a profile like that haha...

Also, if it even IS true at all that it has less effect if someone has caffeine in them I'm wondering if I should try to vape it first thing in the morning before drinking coffee to see if it has more effect...but I figure first I should at least vape a larger amount to see what happens.

Most people say it doesn't do much, but it must have got it's reputation for a mild high SOMEWHERE...

I did not consume 3 ounces, thats just how much was in all the oil.. Per dose I probably only consumed the equivalent of a couple grams. I did not mean to give you an HR speech sorry.

I still have more than half of that stuff left.

Anyway, I would try out making a bit of tea, see how that works, although it takes a while to even really effect you. If that doesn't work I guess just vape more.

 

[DL-ark]

Additionally, looking at the comments of the mentioned thread, I saw one suggesting that leonurine had similar action to a carbamate like meprobamate or phenprobamate. meprobamate is actually an adenosine reuptake inhibitor, and shares a very similar structure to leonurine. Wild dagga's effects definitely would fit the idea of it being similar to meprobamate.

 

[Kilfer]

What would happen if I did use some Wild Dagga?

You mean if I'm on caffeine suddenly the effect of the caffeine is going to dissapear?

As DL-ark stated if leonurine happens to have adenosine reuptake inhibitor properties this could result in partial reversal of caffeine effects due to the lowering of blood pressure in the coronary arteries. In theory this shouldn't end the psycho-stimulant effects of caffeine but I'm not that familiar with caffeine's pharmacology so my statement is mostly conjecture.

 

[DL-ark]

I'd like to add that the diagram on leonurine's structure in the post mycophile referenced is inaccurate. The double bond goes from the carbon to one of the terminal nitrogens, rather than the inner one.

 

[Kilfer]

Additionally, looking at the comments of the mentioned thread, I saw one suggesting that leonurine had similar action to a carbamate like meprobamate or phenprobamate. meprobamate is actually an adenosine reuptake inhibitor, and shares a very similar structure to leonurine. Wild dagga's effects definitely would fit the idea of it being similar to meprobamate.

Err... the mere fact of being an adenosine RI does not means drugs sharing this property are further related doesit not? Meprobamate is a potent adenosine RI, much more so than any benzo. If leonurine had such potency it would be considered toxic enough to attract regulators attention fairly soon due to abuse potential. But then again, mepro is 'only' Schedule IV afaik

 

[DL-ark]

Err... the mere fact of being an adenosine RI does not means drugs sharing this property are further related doesit not? Meprobamate is a potent adenosine RI, much more so than any benzo. If leonurine had such potency it would be considered toxic enough to attract regulators attention fairly soon due to abuse potential. But then again, mepro is 'only' Schedule IV afaik

No one has any idea if adenosine reuptake is very desirable as a drug. Personally wild dagga has been incredibly drug like and pleasurable, more pleasurable than a benzo i'd say (although not nearly as sedating or anxiolytic). Wild dagga is so widely used as an ornamental plant its one of those things regulators don't really want to touch, as well as the fact that wild dagga is not commonly used as the flowers/leaves need to be fresh, and retailers have trouble with this.