[Support] Help PD write warning announcements for the 25X-NBOMe threads

[Solipsis]

§
Considering this is a Harm Reduction forum, it is especially worrisome to see excessive dosages and combinations involving NBOMe compounds being used on the one hand... while on the other hand reports are surfacing with some regularity documenting the deaths of individuals who used NBOMes. To make matters worse,
- the mechanism of toxicity is not understood (so there is no obvious part of the action to avoid or take into account);
- in some cases people die who have previously used the same drug without problem, even at higher doses than the fateful lethal one (so there is no obvious allergy);
- the dosages that end up proving lethal are not consistently showing to be extremely high (so safety cannot even be guaranteed by dosing fairly low);
- the compounds are relatively affordable and available, resulting in considerable exposure to the public.

§
Now, without resorting to unfounded fear-mongering... how would you argue the safety or unsafety of these compounds? What can you tell us justifies using these psychedelics when there are also other ones? And most of all: what would you say to get through to people, warning them of these dangers? We can compile your arguments into an announcement to finally be put at the top of NBOMe threads.

(This is long overdue, but I am not really seeing a whole lot of action on that side - what I am seeing is stupidly irresponsible backed up by a defense like "I was looking for a buzz" and "I have tolerance so take high doses instead of waiting", etc.)

Of course everyone deserves to make their own decisions, but everyone also deserves to be fully aware of these issues in the matter of that decision-making.
Is the first paragraph a good place to start with our announcement?

Thank you all for contributing! We have the warning thread here:
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...nknown-blotters-sold-as-LSD-e-g-at-a-festival

 

[Xorkoth]

I'd say the first paragraph is a good way to start it, it outlines the overall points quite succinctly. I haven't used them myself but I will try to think of something to add.

 

[Incunabula]

Is the first paragraph a good place to start with our announcement?

Absolutely, the first paragraph should do it, except the points should maybe be made more clear and simple. Not everybody has your verbal acuity, Solipsis

Also, maybe something about redosing and tolerance maybe? Which is extreme with the NBOMe's, if you ask me.

That the mods take initiative to something like this is indeed way overdue, in my opinion, but never mind that. The power that bluelight have in spreading the word shouldn't be underestimated.

 

[Si Dread]

Obviously, I'm just a nobody, but I have been very curious about the mechanisms by which NBOMes are causing health problems & have been watching the story closely.

I saw NBOMes appear first in Canada, & watched as their popularity spread as did the reports of fatalities & health crsises of varying severity. I was concerned immediately about Phenethylamines based upon 2c-xx type drugs that were unresearched, perfectly legal to trade, cheap to produce & almost on a par with LSD in activity.

I could've told the British authorities 3 years before NBOMes began to be sold, that they were going to bring problems. Lives would have been saved, but do you think anyone would've listened to me? I do not.

Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, so far, NBOMe drugs appear to be quite likely to cause cerebral events, strokes, basically. I also fear that they may have an effect on core temperature in a similar way to that which MDMA does, & it might be that, like MDMA, negative consequences of NBOMe use might be more apprent & more likely in hot, crowded enviroments.

Remember, this is just some laymans interpretations of the wildy varying media reports about fatalities I've read about from around the world & is not in any way meant to replicate any serious research that might be available on this subject now.

 

[Si Dread]

... indeed, which is why I suspect that their attendance at dance events or festivals might be playing some role in the health problems & fatalities... Younger people I suspect are more likely to buy the wrong drugs (lack of experience & reliable contacts) & re more likely to be attending an event when using or buying these compounds...

The fact that NBOMes are often misrepresented as LSD is a very important point!

 

[perpetualdawn]

Great idea on putting this up for group discussion. The message needs to be clear, accurate and strong. I think Fagott is right about simplifying the copy as much as possible, in order to streamline the message and help it disseminate. Here's my stab:

§
This is a Harm Reduction forum, and it is worrisome to see excessive dosages and combinations involving NBOMe. There have been reports of death associated with this series of drugs, as well as emergency room trips, and psychotic episodes.

Some facts about The NBOMe series:
- The mechanism of toxicity is not understood, so there is no obvious way to avoid risk of toxic effect.
- In some cases of death, people have previously used the NBOMe drug without a problem, even at higher doses than the lethal one. It can kill you even if you've done more in the past.
- The deadly dosages are not necessarily extremely high, so your safety is not guaranteed by dosing low. It can kill you at doses "as low as 2 tabs".
- The NBOMe compounds are cheap, widely legal, and available, resulting in considerable exposure to the public.
- The NBOMe compounds are sometimes passed off as acid/LSD, or other drugs with much higher safety profile, on blotter paper.
- NBOMes cause a quick tolerance build up, and can permanently affect your serotonin receptors, causing permanent tolerance, technical brain damage.
§

Maybe that's a bit too morbid? Some of this might need fact checking/qualification ie. permanent tolerance, technical brain damage.

 

[Deinonychus]

Good idea, one of those 'gee, why didn't I think of that?' moments for sure.

I'm wondering where these warnings would be placed. Because if it goes in the first post of a long-ass BnD, it's not necessarily going to be seen by people hopping onto the most recent page of the thread. Instead I would suggest checking out what the header options are for vBulletin and sticking the header onto the relevant threads. I know MySQL and PHP but I'm unfamiliar with vBulletin specifically, so I don't know how much customization can be done in the headers.

To illustrate my point, all threads in PD sport a header that has a link to the index, the newbie FAQ, and then the rules and three other things. But, above that you see a header that says "CURRENT RESEARCH (click one to see how you can help): Support Bluelight by taking the 2013 Inflexxion survey!" So clearly you can have multiple headers, as the top header is about supporting BL and is visible everywhere whereas the second is limited to displaying only if the user is in PD. I would thus suggest you mods see about creating a header with the relevant text (might take a stab at writing an attempt up myself?) and then setting the display option for that header to 'posts with tag X' assuming there's a post tagging mechanism in vB, or some way to manually assign threads to a 'group' that is not based on location within the forum tree (ie not based on what forum it's in but rather based on whatever conditions the user sets).

Perhaps this is not supported in vB, or there are arbitrary limits on the number of possible headers, or headers can only be created at the forum level. This would be utterly stupid as an SQL select statements don't differentiate posts from threads from forums; the limitation would in fact be truly arbitrary as all that would be needed is simply another kind of filter in the select statement (as far as determining which posts get what kind of header, if any).

I know vB gets rapped on by some as being a primitive, complicated, tangled mess, and I can't speak to the truth or lack thereof for such statements, but this is 2014, so post tagging should be possible in some way - however arcane - with any (EDIT) reasonable, reputable (/EDIT) forum software. The fact that TR had to stick text tags into reports for sorting is somewhat ominous from this point of view as it implies there is no software-level support for post categorization or 'tagging' save for the obvious sorting by forum. Then again, that was implemented a long time ago, so hopefully this sort of feature was lacking then but has since been remedied.

If it is not already supported in the forum engine, it would be trivial to write the SQL necessary, but probably wouldn't happen for just this one use, which would be a shame, as putting the warning in a header visible on every page of a thread would be more useful IMO than just inserting some warning text in the first post of each thread as necessary.

TL,DR: Use a header to contain the text so it is always visible on any page of a tagged thread. If tagging is not possible, it seems vB does in fact suck as much as some claim.

 

[Psychonautical]

This site lacks harm reduction. I confess to being one of the people who has come on to this very website and read about how someone ingested 50mg of 2c-e and didn't die. Foolishly thinking than he could do something like that So can I and I had a terrible fucking time, which lasted a couple weeks of anxiety and hallucinatory hell... Whatever.... I tried it out for myself because of something light hearted and ballsy i read on here ages ago. The key thing here is there has become a large difference between information and dick waving. With all compounds. Just because it won't kill you doesn't mean it's making you any stronger It doesn't matter what it is people seem to want to exceed far beyond a therapeutic and a recreational dose.
REAL HARM control at this point for this particular website would be the isolation of any drug quantities consumed that doesn't represent safe and careful drug consumption. Like a "Don't Do This" section.
You have to imagine that authority reads this website and has to imagine to themselves. What a bunch of drug addled morons who are chewing our their neuro receptors. Boy what frightening lives they must lead.
If someone dies because of something they read on an website that is supposed to be promoting information than who does it come down on? For a fact, i don't think it bothers the guy in china who synthesizes this crap for one minute.
Nor does it really bother the re seller, unless they end up in jail because someone died. But if someone comes on here, wondering what dose they took. Some loud mouth start babbling off about how they took this insane dose, they knew it was stupid, ect, yet they did it anyways, and it was the best thing ever. DOES NOT MEAN it will be the same outcome for another individual whose bodies chemistry is totally separate from your own. There shouldn't be any posturing into convincing someone else to take a recklessly high dose of anything, which is something i have seen alot of.

I think all together we can make this website a better place, and not just a conglomeration of information neurosis.
Not to mention the simple fact that David Nichols has lost sleep over the fact that some of his compounds which he designed to be frighteningly potent are making their way out of the lab and into the hands of fucking retards who want to treat these powders as if they are packets of salt. I'm done ranting. this is just my point of view.

So if we choose to pile up trip reports like make sure the pile of trip reports, is always alive, and we keep the height of the dead bodies from drug over dose alot smaller.
Then lets just take a moment to honestly reflect on the lives we have chosen to lead, and the things we can do to make them healthier without going all "SHUT UP MOM"
On each other. It's simple. Just don't take heroic doses of insanely potent compounds whose neurotoxicity is unknown. Live a longer healthier better more productive life style.
Trip like Shulgin, an OLD MAN.

You can delete this if i have been too harsh. But i have been noticing an extreme lack of harm reduction and a whole lot of acceptance of things like addiction and circumstance far more than education as of late.

 

[tryp2fun]

I'm all for harm reduction, but some of this seems a little bit excessive, kind of like "NBOMEs are bad, mmkay?"

- The mechanism of toxicity is not understood, so there is no obvious way to avoid risk of toxic effect.

There have been deaths associated with 2C-T2, 2C-T7, 2C-T-21, 2C-I, and 2C-E as well. The mechanism of toxicity is not known for those either, but there seems to be little concern about it. Most likely the mechanism of lethality is the same for NBOMes and 2C-Xs, and the therapeutic index is likely to be similar. The problem with the NBOMes is that it is much easier to get to a lethal dose by accident, since it is a few mgs instead of hundreds of mgs. For example, 25B is active at 500 ug, and 2C-B is active at 25 mg, 50 times higher. People seem to be commonly taking 2-3 mg of 25B, which would then correspond to 100-150 mg of 2C-B. Could someone die from taking 150 mg of 2C-B? It is quite possible. If one does an individual titration volumetrically from a solution of an NBOMe which was prepared using an accurate balance, there is no more risk of overdose than with the 2C-Xs. I have done this with 25B, 25C, 25D, 25E and 25I, and the effects are very reproducible for a given dose from one time to the next. However, to emphasize the harm reduction, my doses have never been higher than 700 ug, and that seemed to be uncomfortably close to an overdose. The tabs are dosed much too high. They should be 300-500 ug, not 1-2 mg.

- In some cases of death, people have previously used the NBOMe drug without a problem, even at higher doses than the lethal one. It can kill you even if you've done more in the past.

This has been said, but it is entirely anecdotal. No one knows what the real doses were. Pharmacologically, drugs do not change properties over time. There are a number of possible explanations:
1. The "tabs" are quite variable in potency (most likely).
2. Someone is taking another drug which has a synergist effect on the second dose (likely in some cases). MAO inhibitors would be especially contraindicated with NBOMEs.
3. Inconsistent bioavailability (quite possible). Differences in the efficiency of buccal/sublingual absorption are possible depending on the technique and activity of the person and the type of blotter.

- The deadly dosages are not necessarily extremely high, so your safety is not guaranteed by dosing low. It can kill you at doses "as low as 2 tabs".

Agreed, mostly because of the lack of quality control of the tabs. However, synergism and bioavailability could also be involved.

- The NBOMe compounds are cheap, widely legal, and available, resulting in considerable exposure to the public.

True

- The NBOMe compounds are sometimes passed off as acid/LSD, or other drugs with much higher safety profile, on blotter paper.

True

- NBOMes cause a quick tolerance build up, and can permanently affect your serotonin receptors, causing permanent tolerance, technical brain damage.

The tolerance is true, probably because of the strong agonistic properties which cause receptor internalization. The brain damage is unclear. NBOMEs work the same way as other psychedelics, by activating 5HT2a receptors. Any psychedelic taken too frequently at too high doses can result in long term effects, like HPPD and long term tolerance.

 

[[éS]Infinite]

An index of all the fatalities that have resulted from the NBOMe compounds might be useful for a potential first time user to take a cursory glance over. It could offer some perspective of how severely tragic the unknown territory they're thinking of stepping in to could result in.

 

[Solipsis]

Psychonautical: I guess that deserves to go into the feedback thread, well whether it does or doesn't the matter should probably be discussed among staff. All of this really bothers me as well and I think it is our duty to explore what the alternative could be. To some extent we can't fully prevent people visiting this site from taking whatever is put on it by others the wrong way, abusing information to actually reduce safety and increase harm. But... we do have some control over what is tolerated / condones or not.

When there are reports about what happened to a person for example the one ingesting 50 mg of 2C-E and not dying, the "forum's opinion" that is formally expressed perhaps ought to be less in question. Instead of leaving judgement open, suggesting that everybody is fit to draw their own conclusions.. perhaps staff should be the first to call it when it is not alright. Obviously eventually it still leaves everyone with the decision whether or not they think they can get away with similar stupid shit as others...

If we do decide to take a more serious attitude like that, it is probably also smart if people can report HR violators.

Also, no I don't think NBOMe deaths are simply 20-something people overdosing at festivals. Read recent Erowid reports... here check this one: http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=103021
In short: someone died from 2 hits 25B who had no problem with 3 hits of the same the time before that. It was not an accidental misidentified ingestion at a rave or something like that. There were no really unusual combo's.

If you ask me, there may be some really stealthy factor like whether the person smoked cigarettes or not - maybe something like that causes a form of enzyme inhibition that can lead to critical differences. Excessive levels of the drug leading to the body being overwhelmed by 5HT2a agonism (perhaps combined with that of another subtype). Massive vital organ failures, seizures - basically the body shutting down top-down. Anyway that is another topic
(@Tryp2Fun - does that offer 1 possible explanation for the incongruity you mention? Tolerance is another one. In any case the original point was that it seems to rule out some absolute form of allergy. Also it illustrates the unpredictable nature or better said the small and apparently incalculable therapeutic index).

@EsInfinite: good idea, needs to be put on the to do list

Good point regarding making TL;DR bullet points, maybe as a summary in addition to a well-worded persuasive argument. Drawing the motivations of people in question.

About the overdue thing: I gotta say it does seem like PDers / BLers can be pretty opportunistic turning into consumers rather than contributors. Yes, staff maintains and upholds policies and what not, but essentially where does the responsibility lie? If the community is in need of warnings like these I do wonder how it is possible to just wait on it impatiently instead of helping making it happen. Others are not expected to write it explicitly or put it up, but at the least get people talking about it and voice concerns if you have them. This is directed at the spirit of the forum. We are one and we should take care of ourselves, not dissociate from ourselves.
I'm not happy that there are abusive issues, but I am indeed happy that you use this thread to express concerns now. What must be admitted tho is that something ought to have happened 'after' that NBOMe support / feedback thread.

Anyway, let's see what can be done. Thanks peeps.

 

[zn13bt]

Also, no I don't think NBOMe deaths are simply 20-something people overdosing at festivals. Read recent Erowid reports... here check this one: http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=103021
In short: someone died from 2 hits 25B who had no problem with 3 hits of the same the time before that. It was not an accidental misidentified ingestion at a rave or something like that. There were no really unusual combo's.

Well, how much is "2 tabs" of 25B? Who laid the blotters and what procedures did they follow? How do we know they didn't drip some extra solution on those tabs by accident or something?

My experience concurs with tryp2fun's post above...I've always gotten consistent effects dosage-wise by titrating using volumetric dosing. Of course you can't do that if you buy pre-laid blotters.......which is why I never buy them myself. Here's my suggestions:

* NEVER buy any NBOMe blotter, period. Because God only knows how it was produced.
* Never buy any purported "acid" where you are instructed to take it sublingually or else it won't work, because it's probably NBOMe
* If you're reasonably certain your blotter really is LSD/LSZ/AL-LAD/etc. then swallow it immediately, don't leave it on your gums or under your tongue. And if it's bitter, it's a spitter (this is a well-known rule )
* If you really want to take an NBOMe, then get it sourced in powder form, NOT on blotter, and learn how to measure it out YOURSELF using liquid measurement. Do NOT trust a vendor or your friends or your friends' friends, etc., to measure it correctly. You MUST take responsibility and measure YOUR OWN doses YOURSELF. (And triple-check your arithmetic while you're at it, you don't want to be off by a decimal point...)
* NBOMes have an exponential dosing curve while lysergics have a more linear one (at least when it comes to bodyload/ill effects). What this means is, while you can get away with doubling or tripling an LSD dose, this can be disastrous for an NBOMe.

 

[crOOk]

As I have been saying for a while, I think they aren't absorbed reliably via sublingual and oral (complexed) route. I know a few people who were happy with amount x one time and then the next trial they'd redose until they had used up x*10 for roughly the same effects.
Four friends took NBOME blotters from an unknown source, one went straight to the loony bin (someone with many dozens of psychedelics experiences), the other three barely experiences threshold effects.
I personally tested a NBOME once (can't even remember which, didn't care and still don't), which did result in a +++, but I honestly can't say it had anything special to offer compared to other psychedelics.

Imho this stuff is just complete and utter crap unless you are in it for the money which is why there are so widespread. Even if you DO enjoy the effects a lot, chances are there's another psychedelic out there you'll enjoy even more and which doesn't carry the risks that these carry.


EDIT: Imho a lot of our problems would be solved if we demanded people to post how high there tolerance exactly is, how much experience they have with a drug or class of drugs, whenever they post what dosage they used. I personally always try to do that and assume people do not have any tolerance at all when giving direct advice.

Maybe a warning button would help? But I guess that isn't very easy to implement. Like a "Like" button but instead warning about reckless behaviour in a post.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

I'm pretty hung over, so bare with me, I won't be able to write much.

I wrote a journal entry a few pages long on 25i (suspected, coulda been any Nbome) and my experiences of it as well as my observations of others using it. I had friends who tried legit sourced 25B as well.

My heart goes out to those who have lost children, family members and friends to these, for lack of a better term, devil compounds. I have cried reading OD reports, thinking to myself "What if that was me or one of my friends who took tabs with me??!"

Off the top of my head, these are what I observed of this drug class:

-One overarching theme I hear users, including myself say, is that they feel like they've done permanent brain damage, as if they cannot think in a straight or 'normal' manner as before the Nbome, even with light usage (but particularly with heavy usage). These users never felt this from mushrooms, or LSD, or weed or whatever other drugs they had taken previously. These effects persist for months after and have no signs of disappearing.
-As others have mentioned, its being sold as 'acid' has led many to dose extremely high thinking that they'll be completely fine. I saw my roommate ingest 5 'hits' of blotter when we first got some, thinking it was LSD, and he literally seemed to go crazy. He acted strange for the entire summer, taking massive doses of Nbome blotter, and I thank God every day that I didn't bring death to any of my friends, and I curse myself because I could have brought death upon my circle.
-Many see it as perfectly safe after finding outs its an Nbome, and don't care, because they've taken heroic doses and felt 'fine'.
-One blotter usually made me feel very sick on the come up, have insane visuals by the 45 minute mark, and feel as if my head were overheating through the whole experience.
-People under it's influence have no insights or revelations; they just laid there in a drug stupor, talking jiberish, and even after the effects wore off had nothing profound to mention.
-It's fun; toooooo fun! I never had a bad experience with them, and the one person I knew who did was one of about 20. They trick you into feeling safe because of their euphoria inducing effects.
-People are very inclined to redose and do multiple trips in a week; to me, this suggests strong abuse potential and I saw two of my friends abuse it all summer.
-The effects were nothing like LSD. If you want acid, you need acid. There was no mind-expansion nor were the visuals meaningful in any way.
-Vasoconstriction; besides feeling like utter crap on Nbomes, people get what I used to call 'acid dick' and other symptoms, but much stronger. In cases of overdose, people have blue lips, extremities, etc.
-It's such an issue that high schoolers I know now think that they've been taking LSD all along, and think LSD should be bitter. A friend of mine told me yesterday that his old high school sent parents emails because kids were dying from 25i in his home town!
-IMHO, this drug mimics a psychotic break much more than LSD or any other drug I've taken ever has! People on it have legitimately frightened me for both our health!

 

[Xorkoth]

I'm all for harm reduction, but some of this seems a little bit excessive, kind of like "NBOMEs are bad, mmkay?"


There have been deaths associated with 2C-T2, 2C-T7, 2C-T-21, 2C-I, and 2C-E as well. The mechanism of toxicity is not known for those either, but there seems to be little concern about it.

It's true that deaths have happened from other RCs too (as well as MDMA, meth, heroin (god so many deaths) and many other drugs). The reason we are highlighting the NBOMes is because the confluence of factors makes them much more dangerous. The fact that there is a confirmed death from only 2 blotters is particularly distressing. The NBOMes are often passed off as LSD, and people often take high doses of LSD, 10-strips are not uncommon, but if a person ingested 10 NBOMe blotters, the chances of dying or causing irreparable harm would be quite high. I mean people often take 4 or more blotters of LSD, and doing so is perfectly safe (physically). But 4 blotters or NBOMe is an extremely high and dangerous dose. The chance for catastrophies because of misidentified blotters is so frightening high. People have died from, say, 2C-T-7 as well, but if one obtains 2C-T-7 and doses reasonably, this chance is quite minimal. And 2C-T-7 doesn't get passed off on blotters as another drug. But the same is not true of the NBOMes, hence the extra concern.

I think a good thing to add would be a description of how to test with reagents, and images showing the color of the reaction with the common reagents. This would make it easier for people to test their blotters for the presence of NBOMes. DO you think it would be against the BLUA to post a description of how to find the reagents on eBay/Amazon, or even to post a link to a search on those sites? It seems like the sourcing rules should be waived for such a thing, as it could really contribute to HR to inform people of how to obtain reagents. Many people are lazy, and when someone tells them "you really need to obtain testing reagents to test your drugs", they say "well I don't know how to get them or how to test once I have them so I'm not going to do that". But if it is made easy to understand how to do that, then certainly a percentage more people will actually take that step.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

It's true that deaths have happened from other RCs too (as well as MDMA, meth, heroin (god so many deaths) and many other drugs). The reason we are highlighting the NBOMes is because the confluence of factors makes them much more dangerous. The fact that there is a confirmed death from only 2 blotters is particularly distressing. The NBOMes are often passed off as LSD, and people often take high doses of LSD, 10-strips are not uncommon, but if a person ingested 10 NBOMe blotters, the chances of dying or causing irreparable harm would be quite high. I mean people often take 4 or more blotters of LSD, and doing so is perfectly safe (physically). But 4 blotters or NBOMe is an extremely high and dangerous dose. The chance for catastrophies because of misidentified blotters is so frightening high. People have died from, say, 2C-T-7 as well, but if one obtains 2C-T-7 and doses reasonably, this chance is quite minimal. And 2C-T-7 doesn't get passed off on blotters as another drug. But the same is not true of the NBOMes, hence the extra concern.

I think a good thing to add would be a description of how to test with reagents, and images showing the color of the reaction with the common reagents. This would make it easier for people to test their blotters for the presence of NBOMes.

I know Erowid has up on their site a test comparison between LSD and 25i, the 25i gave no color or slightly grey for the test, and LSD showed up purple like it was supposed to. They also did a black light comparison (using liquids, so may be useless for those taking blotters) and the LSD lit up while the 25i stayed rather obscure.

 

[Incunabula]

There have been deaths associated with 2C-T2, 2C-T7, 2C-T-21, 2C-I, and 2C-E as well. The mechanism of toxicity is not known for those either, but there seems to be little concern about it. Most likely the mechanism of lethality is the same for NBOMes and 2C-Xs, and the therapeutic index is likely to be similar. The problem with the NBOMes is that it is much easier to get to a lethal dose by accident, since it is a few mgs instead of hundreds of mgs.

25i-NBOMe has killed more people in 4 years, since it became available first time in 2010, than all those phenethylamines you mention put together, in the 10-15 years they have been sold online. Sure it's a different market today, but it still says a lot.

Also, that the therapeutic index of NBOMes and 2C-Xs should be similar is just an assumption, made by you, nothing else. And if you ask me, that assumption is completely wrong, both effects and pharmacology are obviously completely different between these 2 groups of psychedelics.

 

[tryp2fun]

25i-NBOMe has killed more people in 4 years, since it became available first time in 2010, than all those phenethylamines you mention put together, in the 10-15 years they have been sold online. Sure it's a different market today, but it still says a lot.

Also, that the therapeutic index of NBOMes and 2C-Xs should be similar is just an assumption, made by you, nothing else. And if you ask me, that assumption is completely wrong, both effects and pharmacology are obviously completely different between these 2 groups of psychedelics.

I agree with you about the fact that more people have died from NBOMEs, but I think we disagree on the reason why. The therapeutic index is simply the ratio of LD50/ED50. Ideally this number should be infinite, or at least, very large, like 100, so that it becomes physically impossible to take an overdose. Let's consider mescaline, which has an ED50 of, for purposes of discussion, 400 mg. The LD50 for humans seems to be unclear, though it seems that there is a death associated with taking 15 g (). That gives a therapeutic index of 37.5. Actually, this is a relatively low value. Physically, it is nearly impossible to take 15 g of mescaline, so it is quite safe. If we assume the therapeutic index of NBOMEs is also 37.5, and an ED50 is 400 ug (this is true for me), then the lethal dose is only 15 mg. It is quite easy to take 15 mg of something by accident or by intention. This is just an example, but the point is that it is not necessary for NBOMEs to have lower therapeutic indices to account for the lethality. The danger is due to the higher potency, even if there is a constant therapeutic index.

What is the evidence that the pharmacology is different for NBOMEs than for the other phenethylamines? I have read Nichols' papers, as well as the other papers published, and I have seen nothing to suggest this. They have higher affinity for 5HT2a receptors than the other phenethylamines, are better agonists, and are more selective. Normally this is considered to make drugs safer, not less safe. If the lethality of a drug is due to binding to another target than the desired receptor, increasing selectivity makes drugs less toxic, since it is unlikely that the structural changes that increase activity in one receptor will also lead to similar effects at a different receptor. The fact that NBOMEs are more selective yet are not less toxic implies that the toxicity is coming from the same target receptor as the desired activity. If this is so, then the therapeutic index should be similar for all drugs in this family. That is my logic, it is not a wild assumption.

 

[Incunabula]

I guess we can agree to disagree

Obviously, a huge part of the NBOMe deaths have been from overdoses, I'll give you that. But really, you don't know that for a fact. You don't actually know anything at all for a fact, and neither do I.

And I still think you're making a hell of a lot of assumptions in the second part of your post. Because pharmacology is a lot more complex than that. Just because both drug Y and X affects the same receptor, they don't neccesarily have anything else in common. Just because 2 molecules looks almost alike doesn't mean they have anything in common pharmacologically.

I'm saying they're different by simple logic, they are different drugs, with different effects, different potencies, different dangers....different therapeuthic indices.
You can't extrapolate the NBOMe's therapeuthic index from the 2C's, you just can't. You're guessing, and that's fine. I'm sure not even Nichols know what happened pharmacologicaly with the people who died.

Just because some one made receptor affinity tests of the NBOMe's (because that's what they were meant for) doesn't mean we really know shit about them. We can sit here throwing Ki values around all day, and what does it tell us? nothing imo.

5HT2a my ass.

 

[FunctionalOlfactio]

I agree about the risk of inconsistent physical reactions to NBOMe chemicals. I also believe there are many wonderful chemicals that elicit a more consistent physical response. Both things should be highlighted in some simple, attention grabbing, and lucid way.

In the name of objectivity I must present a few facts which conflict with anecdotal evidence.

Most NBOMe chemicals are highly selective, efficacious, and near full 5ht2 agonist. Similar chemicals (DOx series) have been used in research over a decade and appear to have high therapeutic indexes in animal models in controlled environments. These experiments often involve doses of >.5 mg/kg without death to the specimen. This equates to human doses of ~35mg. The LD50 of DOB (a chemical with near identical binding to most NBOMe chemicals) is >100mg/kg in mice.(2)

25B NBOMe has been extensively studied in rodents, pigs, non-human primates, and humans.(3) 25B NBOMe has been approved for human research and is currently in clinical trials at very low doses.(4) In rodents, pigs, and non human primates intravenous doses equivalent to multi milligram human doses weren't fatal.(3)

I don't doubt people have lost friends after consuming NBOMe chemicals. The evidence appears to support these deaths were not induced directly by 25X NBOMe. In controlled settings the therapeutic index of these types of chemicals surpasses most psychoactives. I agree with Solopsis that in non-controlled settings "there may be some really stealthy" confounding factor we miss leading to death.

My recommendation is we suggest people unfamiliar with how their body responds to 5ht2a agonist consider lsd or psilocybin instead. If someone decides to use 25x NBOMe we should recommend they titrate, keep doses low, and avoid routes of administration with short duration. Loosing it on a high dose of psychedelics can be scary. If a person is in poor physical condition or has a congenital defect they might be literally scared to death. Longer lasting routes of administration and lower doses might allow longer transition between different states of conciousness and reduce shock.

Most importantly we should have someone with damn good social skills write a simple smart warning so it can be understood by the greatest percentage of users possible. My communication style sucks.

References:
(1)http://scholar.google.de/scholar?q=mg/kg&btn+Dimethoxy-4-iodoamphetamine
(2)http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal062.shtml
(3)http://scholar.google.de/scholar?q=cimbi-36+mg/kg&btn
http://scholar.google.de/scholar?q=cimbi-36+OR+25B-NBOMe
(4)http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT01778686
http://cimbi.org/index.php/the-11ccimbi-36-story

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