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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

Therapeutic Dosage Range of Phenylated-GABA, or Phenibut/Fenybut

neo-sorelian

neo-sorelian

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Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
11
In my attempt to kick (perfectly M.D.-prescribed) high-dosage clonazepam for my idiosyncratic psychological quadruple- or multi-diagnosis of treatment-refractory EXTREME PTSD (please don't ask its etiology--I am a twenty-something American Iraq war veteran who experienced his best friend's cerebrum splattering all over his face, should be enough to say), treatment-resistant MDD, GAD, and "Nightmare Disorder", unaided and self-sufficiently, with no doctoral involvement in my "weaning off", I have chosen to attempt for different reasons, I have found there is absolutely no OTC "helpers" in this matter, except a slight few:

*Valerian Root (peripherally)

*Melatonin

*Phenibut

I assayed next to literally everything, but nothing legally shady. Of course, GABA itself doesn't even freaking reach the brain system to calm oneself down, but the commercial venues trumpeting crap-loads of simple, pure GABA itself as the Holy Grail for anxiety don't let this "trade secret" out... The L-Theanine everyone finds wonderful I found to be utterly useless, even though somehow chemically a GABAergic. The best herbal anxiolytic in my experience is Valerian Root, with little competition. (Chamomile, Hops, Skullcap, etc. are fine but simply ineffective for true sufferers of psychoneurosis.) Valerian at least produces something instead of nothing.

Why Phenibut is such an occult and esoteric substance, I have no clue, I hypothesize only because Americans are simply statistically moronic; in any case, for anyone in roughly similar or even dissimilar but relevant situations, I can confidently state, Phenibut appears to be the absolute best OTC anxiolytic (I do admit I have not experimented with Picamilon/Pikamilon, a similar type combination of Vitamin B and GABA that crosses the BBB, however--an even more "esoteric" OTC drug.) I personally believe Phenibut even is better than 95% of BZDs, and I speak from personal empirical experience.

Now the question is, "What is the therapeutic dose range?" I emphasize therapeutic, as "self-directed, libertarian pharmaco-therapy" is the opposite of regressive, sensualist substance abuse. The moral prerequisite and premise of my self-directed pharmaco-therapeutic treatment is, necessarily, the absence of an addictive personality disorder capable of ominously flowering into a substance use disorder. The lack of addictive personality is what has allowed psychiatrists, otherwise conservative, to give me amphetamine and benzos at the same time, and similar things, in the past. I say this informationally, not egoistically.

I have "kicked" in the past doctor-supervised Adderall usage of a long duration (given for non-typical depressive disorder) without "weaning off helpers", but I must admit, at least for my own system, benzodiazepines of Klonopin-level potency are tougher stuff than mere amphetamine. I doubt anyone's moral willpower can alter the objective physiological symptoms of the withdrawal syndrome, such as, e.g., extreme psychomotor tremulousness or agitated nerves in general, bodily fasciculation, and even convulsive-like movements, I have found out harshly through my own empirical experience. I kept under control the extreme psychogenic markers of withdrawal, the horrific dysphoria and depressive states, etc., but I was defeated by the physiological-chemical symptomatology.

For the clonazepam withdrawal I have 99% conquered at this point, by intelligent tapering and unrelentingly, methodically researching and administering "occult-esoteric" OTC substances like Phenibut, I have been taking, encapsulated, 500-2000 milligrams of Phenibut per day. During these several weeks I have observed an ever-so-infinitesimally slight chemical tolerance or weakening of my responsiveness to the drug. To ask the average (American) M.D. or psychiatrist, "What is the therapeutic dose range for phenylated gamma-aminobutyric acid?" would produce nothing but utter bewilderment and possibly suspicions of substance-abuse. I don't even bother.

I am assuming there is less "parochialism" of psychoactive knowledge on bluelight.

Since Phenibut--and Picamilon--were both developed by the Soviets in the 70's or earlier for their cosmonauts (neat fact), the scientific-caliber research and knowledge I imagine is in Russian and I have honestly not been able to find much in the Anglo-sphere, let alone important little details like what is the scientifically and morally responsible/sane therapeutic dose range for extreme anxiety neuroses.

Are there any "liberally-educated" members here carrying pertinent knowledge as to my inquiry...? Thank you sincerely in advance...



For example, absolutely nothing but Phenibut has been able to so soothingly regulate the tachycardia and occasional semi-tachyarrhythmia I was dealing with... Phenibut is a powerful antiarrhythmogenic, angioprotective, of prescription pharmaceutical-level helpfulness, I can speculate confidently, in addition to its many other protective functions... I am surprised some sleazy transnational pharmaceutical company has not tried to convince the FDA to ban it, in order to monopolize the profit from its use by consumers...



Dear Moderators: I am a socially doltish newbie here, and I am not sure if my thread should be in this forum, or the "Other Drugs" or "Advanced Drug Discussion" forums. Re-position at will. Apologies if so.



WebMD: "At this time there is not enough scientific information to determine an appropriate range of doses for phenibut" etc...

That must be crap. The Soviets simply doped up their astronauts on this stuff without having any responsible medical knowledge of its properties and (non-recreational) range values? I fail to believe that... The information must be somewhere...
 
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Hi neo-sorelian,

Welcome to BL and BDD! Please excuse me if I've misunderstood (it's 1.30am here and I am exhausted) but I believe you are asking if there is a consensus on what the therapeutic dose range is for phenibut for the treatment of anxiety, or if anyone knows of any relevant literature? As you say, it is unlikely that there will be much if any medical literature that would help, apart from Russian research, as it isn't prescribed for anxiety elsewhere as far as I can gather. There should however be information on toxicity.

There are Bluelighters who have used phenibut for anxiety I am sure, so hopefully you can get some help here - and BDD is the right forum for dosage questions. However, if not I can move the thread over to OD to see if anyone there can help. ADD is mostly reserved for the discussion of pharmacology and chemistry.

Do be aware that phenibut, as with all GABAergics, has the potential for addiction and tolerance. I am surprised your tolerance has increased by so little from what I have heard about phenibut, but over time even tiny increases will accumulate and could become problematic. I am not trying to be negative here, but I am always wary when people feel they have discovered a perfect drug - there will always be some drawbacks. I am glad it works so well for you however :)

Oh - also, in future, it is best practice to edit your original post rather than reposting. I've merged your posts together, I hope that is okay :)

edit: if you do an advanced search for "phenibut" in titles only, a range of threads are found - the most useful of which is probably this one (link here) - it is in the European forum and I know that there were several posters in that thread who used phenibut for anxiety.
 
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effie,

You couldn't be more polite and considerate and understanding. I shall amend my un-ideal "board etiquette." :)

Yes in Russia apparently it is officially prescribed for nevousness-related and "neurasthenia"-type disorders, in addition to other things. These are roughly equivalent to the American "anxiety spectrum disorders."

Substance-use disorder issues I am hyper-aware of, and part of the reason I decided to self-terminate the clonazepam, as I have seen so many people metaphorically zombified by this BZD in particular, and I prophylactically wanted to take matters into my own hands... I well-know substituting one potentially addictive drug for another potentially addictive drug is the height of irrationality, and partially I ask my question out of a desire to completely circumvent the reported withdrawal syndrome associated with unwise dosing of Phenibut... Thank you friend, I am acutely aware there is no mystical elixir in the form of chemicals for pyschologically-generated problems, but I believe they can be used as makeshift temporary tools in dark sets of life for certain people, and the type of dark set I currently inhabit.

Thank you sincerely. :)

P.S. Thanks for the Phenibut thread link tip. :)
 
^ We don't get many new members who are as polite as you are, so thank you! Don't worry, we don't expect everyone to know the "board etiquette" right from the start :)

I don't have much personal experience with phenibut (I have tried it a couple of times and I did get some anxiolysis but it was a while ago, it was combined with other drugs, and I can't remember the dosage I am afraid.. so no help at all unfortunately) but hopefully the thread I linked you to is useful, or someone else here can be of help. There may be other, more useful threads to be found too, so it is worth trying the search engine although it doesn't always work brilliantly...

As I said, if you don't get any answers here I will move the thread to OD to see if you get any more joy over there.
 
Dear friend Miss effie,

What do you think of the progress of my inquiry, lol? Lots of daring speculations! :)

In any case, not to be pushy, but I'm still using Phenibut/Fenibut for intensive BZD-withdrawal, and I am directly personally interested in this matter, as I'm sure others would equally benefit...

I am a scientist and rigorous moralist in my own way, and any purely escapist-hedonistic, quasi-nihilistic, quasi-self-destructive, normless substance usage is repugnant to my nature. Thus my rather difficult inquiry.

The tachyphylaxis is increasing with the Phenibut, but I am maintaining 2 grams per day so far. I don't feel comfortable titrating higher without scientific knowledge.

People here know what I mean when I talk about "therapeutic dose range", right? Have I stumped everybody? Oops. I simply can't read Russian! All the hardcore information is in Russian...schucks...

Dearest effie, do what thou wilt with this post/thread.
 
Offtopic perhaps somewhat, but empathogenic drugs like MDMA show a lot of promise treating PTSD. I'm not sure exactly what the ideal clinical setting (or illegal recreation of) would be for it, though it's something that may be worth reading up on.
 
nAON said:
Offtopic perhaps somewhat, but empathogenic drugs like MDMA show a lot of promise treating PTSD. I'm not sure exactly what the ideal clinical setting (or illegal recreation of) would be for it, though it's something that may be worth reading up on.
Click to expand...

Dear friend,

I note the good-will behind your thoughtful suggestion. I am not dogmatic by nature and I am an enemy of all empty philistine bourgeois pseudo-morality, but MDMA, in my mind, falls short in the cost/benefit analysis.

It comes down to individual choice, in the end. I don't dogmatize or moralize against others, but MDMA, from my studies, appears to carry way too much long-term cognitive and emotional impairment, e.g. intellectual deterioration (problems w/attention, memory, learning, etc.), psychological impulsivity, anxiety and depression (assuming one is intelligent enough to circumvent the purely physiological issues, e.g., over-exhausting the heart's capacity for oxygen consumption; dehydration; hyperthermia, etc.)...

I'm not a pedantic citation-freak or a legalitarian moralist, but I know for a fact there are empirical studies out there showing not trivial, but massive impairment of intellectual abilities and overall "affective"/emotional health of MDMA-users (deriving from the substance's intrinsic neurotoxicity) as compared to nonusers...

I'm simply not up for the challenge of risking long-term, potentially irreversible brain damage... I state that starkly, but not in an unfriendly way.

If MDMA can be used therapeutically and responsibly for hardcore sufferers of PTSD, awesome, I say. Presently, I opt out, however.

Despite all of this, don't mistake my direct tone as bellicose or uncivil in the slightest, please. I truly appreciate the time you took out to try to help, sincerely.
 
OP, have you seen any of the PubMed articles on phenibut? A lot of that russian research is in english there.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=phenibut

I also have to say that 2 grams is far beyond a therapeutic dosage. If I recall correctly a 'therapeutic dosage' of phenibut is in the 200-300mg area.

The tolerance builds rapidly IME and phenibut of course will have a withdrawal of it's own when used daily. Important to remember.
 
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Oxide said:
OP, have you seen any of the PubMed articles on phenibut? A lot of that russian research is in english there.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=phenibut

I also have to say that 2 grams is far beyond a therapeutic dosage. If I recall correctly a 'therapeutic dosage' of phenibut is in the 200-300mg area.

The tolerance builds rapidly IME and phenibut of course will have a withdrawal of it's own when used daily. Important to remember.
Click to expand...

Oxide: Thank you for reminding me of pubmed. I somehow had a cognitive memory lapse (probably due to shrapnel in the brain, for better or worse) and completely forgot about the website, which of course is a treasury of helpful data. Thank you. I am going to investigate away...

Also: 2 grams per day (I should have added, I do go on the recommended "holidays"), does not appear to be irresponsible, but since I am lacking erudition in this area, I confess I might have been a victim of misleading product instructions. I have been getting the "Phenibut-XT" from "Serious Nutrition Solutions," and the bottle advises only not to exceed 4 (500 mg) capsules per day--which I have not, despite tachyphylaxis.

http://www.seriousnutritionsolutions.com/products/baseline/Phenibut-XT.php

If "SNS" is deceiving me about responsible dosing, then I shall be quite aggrieved and angry. I am going to be quite irate, in the extreme, if I have been misled about safe dosing.

Also: I have extreme, explosive angst and anxiety. A somewhat larger quantity of the medicine befits my condition, but I had no idea what I was taking was "beyond therapeutic." I feel deceived and angry.

Thank you, I am hypervigilant about withdrawing from the agent I'm using to withdraw, indeed. That is the whole rationale of my inquiry, actually.

Thank you for your overall assistance. I feel like a duped fool.
 
nAON said:
Where did you hear about the cognitive function impairment? From what i've read, the only problems come about with heavy chronic use.

See:

http://reason.com/blog/2011/02/17/new-study-finds-no-link-betwee

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-02-cognitive-impairment-ecstasy-users.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525102/

http://jop.sagepub.com/content/20/2/302


I don't know much about using MDMA clinically, though from what i've heard it seems almost a wonder-drug in many aspects.
Click to expand...

Hey again: I am preoccupied currently, but I will look over your links and the MDMA discussion I will re-engage in A.S.A.P. I'm certainly no foe of unorthodox, outside-of-the-box possibilities--as long as the safety factor is present.
 
It isn't exactly an unheard of dosage, just saying that it's a little higher than what I would consider therapuetic. If you're withdrawing from benzodiazepines, I see why you might be taking more than the therapuetic dosage, though.
 
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I would try pregnenolone, phosphatidylserine (controls cortisol), picamilon, and if those don't work mirtazapine.

I wrote on article on pregnenolone at http://cut2thept.blogspot.com/?m=1
, it works on the benzodiazepine receptors and has profound effects to boost cognitive performance.500mg
 
I know this is an older post, but the prescription medication Noofen is just brand name phenibut...According to the directions on the package 2000 mg is the highest recommended dose
 
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