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N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand
serotonin syndrome and LSD
- Thread starter bpayne
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alantis360
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I took one 50mg tramado (which is a very low dose for me)l early in the day once. That night I took some lsd and am pretty sure I got Serotonin Syndrome. It was a horrible experience I would avoid taking these 2 within a 24 hour period.
pofacedhoe
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i would advise against- had a very anxious panic style freak out the moment trammadol kicked the tail end of an acid trip- bad
right, I just figured that by tomorrow my trip would be over so it would be all good, but u guys are the experts, the reason I posted here is I got idiotic responses over in basic like "wait till u get your tramadol to take the acid so you won't be in wd" lol
Hammilton
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I doubt it. I've never seen anyone suggesting that combining tramadol with a 5HT2a agonist caused serotonin syndrome before. Tramadol combined with other serotonin releasers or reuptake inhibitors is obviously not a brilliant idea, though.
Given LSD's low efficacy (but high affinity) I'd think it would probably act more like an antagonist (in that it would block the higher efficacy ligand-- obviously it'll still activate the same signalling pathways crucial to psychedelic activity).
Given LSD's low efficacy (but high affinity) I'd think it would probably act more like an antagonist (in that it would block the higher efficacy ligand-- obviously it'll still activate the same signalling pathways crucial to psychedelic activity).
hell yeah now THAT'S what I'm looking for, detailed information from someone that knows the pharmacology of these substances. Thank you Loads Hammilton!!, I think I'm going to hold off anyways simply because as you said it's not a Brilliant idea anyways. Thank you so much for chiming in though. that's exactly what I was looking for in this forum with this question.
Hammilton
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Well I said that combining Tramadol with 5HT reuptake inhibitors and releasers (prozac and MDMA, for example) wasn't a brilliant idea. I don't see any obvious interactions for your suggested combination, but it's certainly possible that there's something I'm not considering.
Still though, I don't think serotonin syndrome is a likely side effect of the combination. That's a condition caused by high levels of serotonin floating around- as in dangerously high levels. MDMA gets you to high levels, but not levels high enough to produce clinical 5HT syndrome symptoms (aside from increased body temp, from my understanding). Now tramadol does cause an increase in 5HT release (or are extracellular concentrations increased via reuptake inhibition? I forget), but doesn't get anywhere near the levels that MDMA produces.
Assuming that a serotonin agonist with a suitably broad range of subtype affinity, given a high enough dose, could reproduce serotonin syndrome, then we might be a tiny bit leery about combining tramadol with 5HT2a full agonists (pick one), but given that LSD has fairly low efficacy, it's really a partial agonist. In the presence of 5HT, it's going to behave more as an antagonist, at least if you were able to look at the whole picture. On a receptor-by-receptor basis, it'll still be activating the pathways that produce the psychedelic effect, but it'll have the effect of inhibiting the effect of 5HT, not enhancing it- so theoretically, it might actually reduce serotonin syndrome.
Now, is that my logical interpretation based on what I know- it's certainly possible that in real life that logic doesn't hold up. A lot of very logical theory doesn't work out the way one would expect in vivo.
I have to ask myself why you'd want to try this combination anyway? I can understand lots of combinations, even some that would appear ultimately unwise, but while this doesn't seem to pose any inherent risk of 5HT syndrome, I don't see any reason to try it, either. If you want to combine an opiate with a psychedelic, I would think you'd want to match of duration of effects. You don't want to 'crash' while peaking (at least it's not as bad as crashing from speed or crack, I guess).
Still though, I don't think serotonin syndrome is a likely side effect of the combination. That's a condition caused by high levels of serotonin floating around- as in dangerously high levels. MDMA gets you to high levels, but not levels high enough to produce clinical 5HT syndrome symptoms (aside from increased body temp, from my understanding). Now tramadol does cause an increase in 5HT release (or are extracellular concentrations increased via reuptake inhibition? I forget), but doesn't get anywhere near the levels that MDMA produces.
Assuming that a serotonin agonist with a suitably broad range of subtype affinity, given a high enough dose, could reproduce serotonin syndrome, then we might be a tiny bit leery about combining tramadol with 5HT2a full agonists (pick one), but given that LSD has fairly low efficacy, it's really a partial agonist. In the presence of 5HT, it's going to behave more as an antagonist, at least if you were able to look at the whole picture. On a receptor-by-receptor basis, it'll still be activating the pathways that produce the psychedelic effect, but it'll have the effect of inhibiting the effect of 5HT, not enhancing it- so theoretically, it might actually reduce serotonin syndrome.
Now, is that my logical interpretation based on what I know- it's certainly possible that in real life that logic doesn't hold up. A lot of very logical theory doesn't work out the way one would expect in vivo.
I have to ask myself why you'd want to try this combination anyway? I can understand lots of combinations, even some that would appear ultimately unwise, but while this doesn't seem to pose any inherent risk of 5HT syndrome, I don't see any reason to try it, either. If you want to combine an opiate with a psychedelic, I would think you'd want to match of duration of effects. You don't want to 'crash' while peaking (at least it's not as bad as crashing from speed or crack, I guess).
allium
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There was the thread about Tramadol and psychedelics in PD:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=551924
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=551924
Shambles said:
Thanks again Hammilton, just to clarify, I have no intention of "wanting" to combine tramadol and lsd at all in any form. The situation is that I have become addicted to tramadol for the last 2 years and go through severe withdrawals if I dont' take it on a daily basis, now If I can't get tramadol then I can substitute it with another opiate and be alright, ie, codeine, hydrocodone, oxy, even Kratom works to keep away WD. to a certain point. my concern about the two together stems from the fact that I have had some LSD in my drug box for a good 3 months or so and it is very strong, I took only HALF a tab of it previously and tripped pretty hard for about 7 hours. but anyways. I can't skip the tramadol to take the LSD< cause I will go into Withdrawals so the best thing I can do is switch over to another opiate for the time I plan to trip, and I need to know how long to wait after the tramadol till it's safe to take the acid, OR conversely how long after an Acid trip I must wait to take the Tramadol. to be safe..... in that particular situation I was out of tramadol for 2 days, my next order came on Friday and I ran Out wednesday, so I was asking if I took the Acid Thursday, would there be enough time for it to be completely out of my system to safely the the Tramadol when it was Delivered on Friday... Hope that made more sense to you....
pofacedhoe
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switch to pod tea for a day or two to trip- i never had heard of tramadol and lsd causing serotonin syndrome until i read shambles description of it, to be fair it didn't make sense to me how that would work.
BUT i have taken tramadol on the end of an lsd trip and it went very anxious, overheated and impossible to sleep. i thought the tramadol would chill me out but it did almost exactly the opposite. maybe just not a good combination. bear in mind at this time i had gone clubbing on combo's of tramadol and mdma (no problems, but very fucked), and tramadol and 4-fluoroamphetamine
BUT i have taken tramadol on the end of an lsd trip and it went very anxious, overheated and impossible to sleep. i thought the tramadol would chill me out but it did almost exactly the opposite. maybe just not a good combination. bear in mind at this time i had gone clubbing on combo's of tramadol and mdma (no problems, but very fucked), and tramadol and 4-fluoroamphetamine