SO Photography Contest Discussion!!

[felix]

I think it's about time we had one of these, to save cluttering up the contests themselves.

Discuss: the rules, photography techniques, equipment, funny stories that happened when you were taking a photo for the contest etc. etc. Anything that doesn't fit into a contest itself.

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COPIED AND PASTED FROM THE LAST CONTEST:

color accent is a integrate option in my camera, can i use it or does that fit in the "heavily manipulated " ?

^
I'd have to go with "heavily manipulated", ninja. I think B&W was the exception.

i have to dissagree with ya S.A.

im dont really understand why this forum is so hell bent on restricting any type of manipulation. i mean if you talk to any real photographer or go to a real photography forum everyone in that line of work will tell you that post processing is an important part of photography. just as important as the photo it self. every photo in every magazine, poster, billboard, ect ect ect. has been post processed. it is PART of the skill. IMO these comps are basically only 50% of a photo contest. sure the photos have been taken but nobody is allowed to "finish" them?

im not trying to change the rules, just expressing my view.

plus ninja's photo has not even been "post processed" it does that right on the camera. i know some people complain because they cant afford photo editing programs or cameras with neat little features, but thats kinda their problem. its 2007 everyone should just get with the program.

Originally Posted by IAMTHOUGHTS
i have to dissagree with ya S.A.

IAM, you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the contest rules. If you'd like to gauge the current sentiment and see if any of the rules are due for a revision, please feel free to discuss it in a separate thread. Thanks.

on ninja's entry...

Originally Posted by IAMTHOUGHTS
plus ninja's photo has not even been "post processed" it does that right on the camera. i know some people complain because they cant afford photo editing programs or cameras with neat little features, but thats kinda their problem. its 2007 everyone should just get with the program.

Under further revision.

nah i dont care enough to push for revision, i just felt compelled to make my point i guess. sorry for even getting into it. things are working pretty well with these set of rules. i just dont fully understand the reasoning for them. if that makes any sense.

The reason for the rule (as far as I am aware) is so that we are all competing on a level playing field.

It's a photography contest, not a photoshop contest.

I like this rule.

 

[SA]

I'll post what I first posted in private then...

My reasoning is that if the "my camera does this on its own" doors are opened, it could invite manipulated entries, many of which will be damned near impossible to tell whether they'd been pre or post edited. I know it's "innocent until proven...", but we've been down this road before and it wasn't pretty.

To allow the on-camera goodies, we'd have to revise the rules to allow the post-camera goodies as well, IMHO, or there would likely be finger pointing in every single round. The reasoning against revising those broader rules are in felix's post above - 's a photography contest, not a photoshop contest.

 

[L2R]

imo. no post camera goodies.

this contest is more about fun and participation than professional photos. if you make it so that the few have a head start, others will be less inclined to contribute.

we'd do be by just sticking to crops, resizes & B&W only IMO.

 

[QuestionEverything]

I agree with the above.

I do think that if you open the submissions up to manipulation you might as well make this a photoshop competition. Manipulation is manipulation, whether it is done by the camera or photoshop. There is no way to tell the difference.

I agree that anything further than cropping, resizing, and desaturating should be out of bounds.

 

[felix]

"desaturating"? what's that?

if you're talking about brightening things up, then i am in total agreement

 

[QuestionEverything]

Sorry - 'desaturating' is removing color. Some programs fancier way of making a photograph B&W

 

[Johnny1]

What about brightness, contrast, and white balance correction? You can do that in camera - by setting the WB and adjusting the in-camera processing settings before you shoot, or you can shoot RAW mode and do that on your computer. If you shoot RAW, it's practically a necessity to do some very basic post processing. But IMO that's not major image manipulation. Unless you go for an extreme effect by making huge changes on the computer, it's pretty much the same as doing your settings in-camera.

 

[Pander Bear]

I'll post what I first posted in private then...

My reasoning is that if the "my camera does this on its own" doors are opened, it could invite manipulated entries, many of which will be damned near impossible to tell whether they'd been pre or post edited. I know it's "innocent until proven...", but we've been down this road before and it wasn't pretty.

To allow the on-camera goodies, we'd have to revise the rules to allow the post-camera goodies as well, IMHO, or there would likely be finger pointing in every single round. The reasoning against revising those broader rules are in felix's post above - 's a photography contest, not a photoshop contest.

Which is exactly why post-processing should be allowed, without exception.

1) as it stands, modest photoshopping cannot be detected by competitors and moderators, and there is no way to ascertain whether a photo actually meets the requirements or not. I believe this has already been an issue in past contests.

2) image manipulators are freely available (the GIMP) and can be run on a very very modest system. Tutorials are available freely on youtube, among other places, that teach novices how to do simple things that don't dramatically change their photos, like red-eye reduction, color correction, and other tricks that don't dramatically alter a photograph.

3) This competition is already biased in favor of people who have more sophisticated cameras: higher shutter speeds, better CCDs, DSLRs, image stabalization, extra lenses for macro photography, manual focus, et cetera et cetera.

4) Post-processing is an essential part of any photographers work these days, from novice to professional, and its been that way for over a century.

5) A poor photograph that has been embellished ad nauseum will ALWAYS lose to the person who took a better picture and did little to nothing to it after the moment.

6) There are decent photographs in these competitions that could really benefit from a modest touch up.

it is time for a rule re-evaluation.

 

[felix]

but surely the point is to take a good photograph in the first place?

3) This competition is already biased in favor of people who have more sophisticated cameras: higher shutter speeds, better CCDs, DSLRs, image stabalization, extra lenses for macro photography, manual focus, et cetera et cetera.

i've never thought that. i've won 3 or 4 () and i've never used my SLR, it's always been with my 'simpler' point n shoot cameras.

 

[L2R]

i'm not learning photoshop technique just for this contest. just as i won't buy a "real camera" as repeatedly suggested.
the fun of this is it's simplicity. you take a photo, you post it. that's it.
if we allow post manipulation then far more effort is required to actually compete. and where's the fun in that?

 

[Johnny1]

3) This competition is already biased in favor of people who have more sophisticated cameras: higher shutter speeds, better CCDs, DSLRs, image stabalization, extra lenses for macro photography, manual focus, et cetera et cetera.

I agree with all your points, atlas, except this one. I won three of these contests. Two (shadows and temples of worship) were taken with a Canon G2, which is a six year old digicam you could buy now for less than a hundred bucks on ebay (but I don't recommend it - it's too old). The third (people) was a scanned photo taken with a 35mm consumer pocket camera loaded with consumer-grade film. There's no doubt that for some contests the better equipment has an advantage, but for most, it's the person behind the camera that determines how good the photo is.

For $375 on Amazon, + a few bucks for a memory card and rechargeable batteries, anyone can get a Canon Powershot A650IS and have equipment as capable as anyone else's for almost every photo contest here. My friend with a Powershot 620, an older version of that camera, takes better photos than I can with my new Canon Rebel XTi because he has a better eye than I do.

Edited to add: I didn't see felix's post because I had the compose window open for a while before I posted. I should have just said, "I agree with felix."

 

[Pander Bear]

no no, I agree fully with you. I just brought it up to highlight the fact that post processing isn't the only place where technology can vary to the point where it effects the final product.

The best photographer almost always takes the best photo, and I think it shows in the contests we've had here.

edit: mmm, I want that fuckin' Rebel XTi

 

[Johnny1]

OK, I see your point now: someone can have an advantage b/c of their gear, or they can have an advantage because of their ability to post-process. Is that correct?

Rebel XTi (aka 400D): I just got a Canon 50mm f1.4 lens for it and am loving it. :D

 

[Pander Bear]

I assume the reason that post-processing is disallowed is because its a barrier to entry for people who can't/wont pirate a copy of photoshop, and there's a learning curve. I think I refuted both of them. Some people are really excellent with photoshop, but I'm personally not voting for anything that is all lens flared out and tinkered with, and I think the people who run these contests should show the same faith in the contestants (primarily so I can submit entries that aren't fit for even my personal folder until I "fix" them)

 

[SA]

I assume the reason that post-processing is disallowed is because its a barrier to entry for people who can't/wont pirate a copy of photoshop,

So to enter the contest one has to steal software? Nice! Why stop there? Why not the best camera for the job? Really now. 8)

but I'm personally not voting for anything that is all lens flared out and tinkered with

And that is the freedom of the voting process. As long as an entry adheres to the rules, it will be there for you to vote on, not vice versa (as in it will be there only if you consider it worthy enough for you to vote on).

and I think the people who run these contests should show the same faith in the contestants (primarily so I can submit entries that aren't fit for even my personal folder until I "fix" them)

speaking of submitting... I believe you are being shown the same faith. Themes are given out well in advance. I believe if I, a photo-dunce, can pick out a reasonable entry from 45 lousy shots I managed to steal an hour for from a stupendously busy day, submit it without any post editing and actually manage attract a vote or three, then absolutely anyone should be able to outdo me every single time (which is what happens, LOL). Speaking of submitting...

 

[felix]

I should have just said, "I agree with felix."

Always. Let that be a lesson to you, young man

no no, I agree fully with you. I just brought it up to highlight the fact that post processing isn't the only place where technology can vary to the point where it effects the final product.

this is true.

I think the people who run these contests should show the same faith in the contestants

well, i think we all need to. there's no point breaking the rules, you'd just be cheating yourself really.

 

[Pander Bear]

So to enter the contest one has to steal software? Nice! Why stop there? Why not the best camera for the job? Really now. 8)

really now, if you read my post with the same care you put into making a snide response, you'd have seen that image software is freely available.

The GIMP, for macs, Windows, and Linux 8)

speaking of submitting... I believe you are being shown the same faith. Themes are given out well in advance. I believe if I, a photo-dunce, can pick out a reasonable entry from 45 lousy shots I managed to steal an hour for from a stupendously busy day, submit it without any post editing and actually manage attract a vote or three, then absolutely anyone should be able to outdo me every single time (which is what happens, LOL). Speaking of submitting...

My camera is "special" in some respects. Use of the zoom always results in a blurred, shaky image. Lighting must be perfect, whether in manual or automatic focus, or my images come out extraordinarily dark. In my personal use, I shoot to RAW, and fix it in post, but since I've been told that I can't, I rarely submit. I respect the rules of the contest, and am waiting patiently to be heard on the points I made about post processing, rather than just getting comments that smack of fatherly condescension as they completely miss the thrust of what I was saying.

 

[SA]

My camera is "special" in some respects. Use of the zoom always results in a blurred, shaky image. Lighting must be perfect, whether in manual or automatic focus, or my images come out extraordinarily dark. In my personal use, I shoot to RAW, and fix it in post, but since I've been told that I can't, I rarely submit. I respect the rules of the contest, and am waiting patiently to be heard on the points I made about post processing, rather than just getting comments that smack of fatherly condescension as they completely miss the thrust of what I was saying.

So rather than replace what is admittedly a defective camera, you'd rather argue for a contest's rules to be changed to suit your needs. Grand philosophy you got there. Yet you accuse me of fatherly condescension? Wow!

 

[Johnny1]

But what about us RAW shooters? Do we have to change to JPG to participate? Will you concede, based on felix's and my posts above which state that we have won several times between us without having used advanced gear, that it's really the shot that wins and not what might be done with it in post? If I can't change the exposure or the white balance or the sharpness, then my photos taken with my new gear could look all washed out. Whereas someone who is shooting JPG can tell their camera to apply contrast and sharpening to the JPGs that come out of the camera and theirs will look good.

Subject choice, lighting, and composition are so much more important. They make the photo; you can't turn a photo with a poor subject, lighting, and/or composition into something great on a computer. Aside from cropping, which can make huge improvements, you can't really do that much with the basic image adjustments on the computer other than to make sure your shot came out with the right exposure and white balance. For example, someone who gets up early in the morning or stays out late, and uses a tripod or stable surface to capture the golden light falling on a subject, will always prevail over someone who takes that same shot at noon. No image manipulation, except maybe by a true artist, could change the flatness of the light or the absence of shadows or the lack of interesting contrasts that the "noon" photo will have.

My own choice would be to prohibit "special effects," such as high-dynamic-range photos made from several shots of varying exposures that are later combined on the computer, large changes in color saturation or use of selective colors or colors that vary significantly from the original photo, use of filters other than sharpening, and use of advanced Photoshop-type techniques such as layers and masks. I would permit, in addition to L2R's limitation of crops, resizes, and B&W: changes to contrast/brightness/levels, sharpening, and white balance.

BTW, the shot I took of the Buddhist temple in Thailand that has an eerie blue glow: that was straight out of the camera with the default settings. The look of the photo came from a long exposure, nothing else. So I do see the logic in restricting major changes, as I've always been proud of that photo and did nothing extra to achieve the look.

 

[SA]

Johnny1, I have absolutely no problem with either your or felix's reasoning.