Dissociatives [Methoxetamine Subthread] Adverse Effects / Side-effects

Listed possible side-effects:

• Insomnia
• Cognitive problems
• Oxygen deprevation (unclear if from respiratory depression)
• Loss of balance
• Exacerbation of tinnitus

READ THE END OF THE THREAD AS WELL TO SEE CURRENT DISCUSSION

[original post:]

This post is a mix of late trip report (though not necessary as the Big & Dandy thread more than fills that need!) and questions. There is much rambling but I hope you can be patient and maybe we can all get something out of this.

I've had MXE in 3 main sessions now + today. Never lasting more than an evening.

Physical Stats
Sex: Male
Age: 26
Weight: 154lbs (11st) / 70Kg
Health: Very good & very active.

Other Experience
I've had ketamine probably 6-8 times. Always a gram to myself after an evening clubbing. I've only ever had ket once when in a baseline/normal state. Other possibly relevant psychedelics: Mushrooms, LSA, aMT and MDEA, etc. So dissociatives I'm not mega experienced with.

Quick Summary of Experiences
First Trip (Dec): I typed the following truly piss poor effort during the lucid part of the trip - around the time it ends I went into an M-hole until about 3am. Sorry its not very interesting but using the computer was difficult. I'm sure you can imagine.

Date: 30th December 2010
Time: 19:19
Method: Insufflated (left nostril only)
Dose: 25mg (est)
Last Eaten: 1.5hrs ago

19:30: Feeling tired. Very slight 'something'. Almost like the tiniest speck of ketamine has been taken.
19:40: Feeling as though nothing is happening I take another 25mg dose.
19:43: Face feeling strange. Its almost like coke numbness with heat.
19:46: Already think the extra dose may have been premature. Using PC is getting confusing. Missing keys, etc.
19:54: Feeling like its plateued I feel cheated.
19:56: Get up for a piss. Oooo. Something's going on. I feel pretty happy. Finish and sit back down. I say to myself: "OH HI! I THINK ITS TIME FOR MUSIC!".
19:58: Finally starting to feel like ketamine. Fuck me this takes a long time to work. Ket would do something in 5-10mins.
20:01: Feel like I could just go to be. Very tired. Getting harder to use comp.
20:16: Another line. 25mg (est)

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The experience was like ket but 'darker' and 'heavier'. Hard to describe - I didn't get the fluffiness people seem to mention. It was like I wanted it to piss off and let me sleep but it kept going: "HEY HO - Here's another insane visual concept to deal with". I also managed to record a video with my Mac of me being very confused on my bed. Which reminds me: I've found MXE to be like Ket without the humour. There's no giggles or funniness there. Its all dark and forboding confusion!

Second (Jan): This didn't go so well and I didn't keep a report. I'm sorry but it was about 2 weeks ago now and I forget the exact dosage. It was likely 75-150 range first off but then I finished off the last of it which was about 50mg later on. Basically it was a high dose. My biggest complaint was it made me tired but unable to sleep. The tripping insanity theatre was all let down by a constant dragging need to sleep. A sleep that couldn't happen. I started at about 7pm and couldn't sleep until (that doesn't 'sound right' - its not a stim ffs so why can't I sleep!!?) 5am.

Third (Jan): Nothing special to report except mass confusion, no funny or happy. Just - "WTF" every 5 mins and a yearning to sleep.

Fourth: Tonight. Eyeballed 20mg about an hour ago. No effect so far. Decided after the poor experience the first two times that I would reduce the dose significantly to see if I was overdoing it. Will redose with ~40mg.

Questions
Eyelid Removal: Whenever I've tried MXE this particular effect has been much more pronounced than with ket. I call it eyelid removal. Basically I struggle to sleep cos whenever I close my eyes the CEV is a carbon copy of what my opened eyes were seeing. So its like my eye lids are transparent. This makes sleeping immensely difficult and this is one of my biggest gripes with MXE - I'm tired, I want it over but it keeps me awake by removing my damn eyelids. It reminds me of the nasty ending to LSA (HBWR & MG) where you can't sleep and feel like your mind will never go back to normal.

• Is this common?
• What has everyone else's experience been like towards the end?
• Can I safely take diphenhydramine (Nytol) to help cut off the end and let me sleep?

Sleepy Stimulation:Ketamine stimulated me but it could also knock me out. I don't mean into a K-hole. I mean beyond that and just KO. I've done it once or twice before in desperation after a long club night. Just take a large dose and bang - gone. Sleep. But MXE seems to stimulate and tire you out. It won't let me sleep but it makes me tired as hell. Its a shitty horrible feeling and its the biggest downer on my whole experience so if anyone could shed some light I'd be very grateful.

Don't let that put you off. By the looks of it my experience is unusual. Just wanting to see if anyone else has had similar.

Eyelid Removal: Whenever I've tried MXE this particular effect has been much more pronounced than with ket. I call it eyelid removal. Basically I struggle to sleep cos whenever I close my eyes the CEV is a carbon copy of what my opened eyes were seeing. So its like my eye lids are transparent. This makes sleeping immensely difficult and this is one of my biggest gripes with MXE - I'm tired, I want it over but it keeps me awake by removing my damn eyelids. It reminds me of the nasty ending to LSA (HBWR & MG) where you can't sleep and feel like your mind will never go back to normal.

* Is this common?
* What has everyone else's experience been like towards the end?
* Can I safely take diphenhydramine (Nytol) to help cut off the end and let me sleep?

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I have experienced this effect with MXE though not with ketamine. I wouldn't advise taking Nytol under these circumstances but perhaps a low dose of diazepam (or similar) would be helpful.

the title is sort of 'out there' :L "steals my eyelids" XD

its not a stim ffs so why can't I sleep?

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It might not be classified as a stimulant but arylcyclohexylamines can have effects on a broad range of receptors, NMDA antagonism (also at the PCP receptor site) for the main dissociative effect, mu opioid agonism like methoxetamine has, sigma receptor for very derealized or bizarre experiences, and also dopamine (D2) agonism which may attribute to insomnia - part of the euphoria but on the long term also giving potential amphetamine-psychosis like symptoms.

So do you think it would be possible to go physcotic on this?

Methoxetamine and oxygen deprivation??

I tried methoxetamine for the first time last week and had an amazing experience and wrote a trip report . I did 450mg over a ten hour period or so, the last dose taken around 5 am. Around 8 or 9 am my girlfriend mentioned to me that my lips were very blue. I looked in the mirror and they were quite blue and purple, similar to how you look after doing way too much nitrous oxide. I didn't notice any kind of respiratory depression during the experience, which actually makes it more dangerous. This drug is definitely unlike ketamine in the respect that you could get brain damage or even die if you got too carried away with it, where as ketamine barley effects breathing. I read one other report that mentioned concerns about breathing with MXE, has anyone else had a similar experience? Does anyone know of a way to objectively test this effect? I know the amount I took was very large, but I'm sure many other people who love dissociatives will take just as much or more. We should proceed with caution, it would be terrible if anyone ended up hurting their brain or dying.

<SpaceHead> said:

they were quite blue and purple, similar to how you look after doing way too much nitrous oxide.

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WTF? I call BULLSHIT. I *KNOW* you are totally a liar because Nitrous does absolutely NOT make you turn blue from oxygen depreivation, *snip*. you STILL NEED TO BREATH when using Nitrous whippets, you CANNOT AVOID IT... Nitrous cannot be taken as a substitute... unless you strap on a mask connected to a tank and do 100% nitrous which is totally retarded thing to do. Which will kill you very fast. I have done tons of Nitrous and been with many people doing large numbers of whippets in a row, and NEVER ONCE saw anyone turn blue. This is just pure unadulterated anti-drug hysteria LIES...*snip* Hence I do not believe you did that much MXE... why would someone do that much? No reason... I am pretty sure you could not do that much and not just die.

my lips go a little blue when i binge on nitrous... i take it directly out of a decanter so it could be the coldness....

Yeesh Dwayne, I don't see any reason to accuse the OP of being an anti-drug propagandist. A very large amount was used of a drug whose supposed pharmacological effects are based entirely on theory at this point. Blue lips on nitrous is common enough to be asked over at "Ask Erowid". The answer given suggests either self-induced oxygen deprivation (apparently you can be oxygen deprivated without feeling shortness of breath using nitrous) or possibly that nitrous itself binds to hemoglobin (which one study does substantiate), and that possibly that displaces oxygen from binding properly.

http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.php?ID=3036

I have no clue why methoxetamine would do this. It feels more like nitrous than any other dissociative I've used, but clearly it's chemically very different. I've not experienced anything like it, but I've never used close to 400 mg in a night.

I have had this when I binged on dxm. I was holding in my weed hits too long or something and at one point I actually blacked like I was about to pass out. Kind of scary makes me thing passing out, blocking oxygen from the brain = brain damage??????

^Hmm. Ketamine is used as an anesthetic over other anaesthetics specifically because it doesn't cause as drastic a degree of respiratory depression as other anesthesia medicines, but I wonder if other NMDA antagonists (at least for some at the right dosages) block signals from the body to the brain in different ways, ways that interrupt feedback about how much users are breathing. It's the most plausible explanation I can conceive.

Just to be clear, maybe the OP can edit to include some basic relevant information that was included in the linked trip report? Namely that you also consumed mushrooms, SAMe and 3g of piracetam.

psood0nym said:

Blue lips on nitrous is common enough to be asked over at "Ask Erowid". ... or possibly that nitrous itself binds to hemoglobin (which one study does substantiate)...

http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.php?ID=3036

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Erowid's link to that study no longer works. Perhaps it was removed because it was proven inaccurate. Furthermore, that Erowid answer states explcitly:


Sounds link that was a lab result based on playing with pure chemicals nothing even close to a medical "study" which examined use in humans.

Here, this study IS specifically medical/human in nature and mentions NOTHING about oxygen binding, so that's just more scare-mongering... this seems VERY thorough and I have little doubt they would have looked for it:

Recent advances in understanding the actions and toxicity of nitrous oxide
M. Maze, M. Fujinaga; Anaesthesia, Volume 55, Issue 4, pages 311–314, April 2000 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2044.2000.01463.x/full

I honestly don't think it would be used as a surgical and dental anesthetic if it was binding to hemoglobin enough to make your lips turn blue.... and as I said neither I nor no one I asked ever saw anyone turn blue from nitrous. HAVE YOU???

I stand by that it is scare-mongering and object to its being trotted out... I doubt the OP has ever personally seen people turn blue from it either.

Sorry to earn a "sheesh" but such presumptions and scare-mongering at BL really piss me off.

twelvesevndi said:

my lips go a little blue when i binge on nitrous... i take it directly out of a decanter so it could be the coldness....

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Yes and the tops of whippet crackers can get so cold that your lips get stuck to them, haha, happened to me... and cold is WELL KNOWN to make lips turn blue. So I am 1000% sure it is cold, not "oxygen deprivation" that might cause this effect. Mystery solved.

Why do you so vehemently deny this effect of nitrous Dwayne? Solipsis has experienced this effect too, so I suppose this makes him an anti-drug propagandist.8)

I will re-iterate: the ventilatory centre of the brainstem does not respond to low blood levels of oxygen, but instead relies on raised levels of carbon dioxide to control homeostasis. Since we are not biologically created to inhale balloons of inert gasses, any fluctuation in blood gas levels is presumed to be a fluctuation of normal vital functions.

Understand this: nitrous ballons, unlike the n2o/o2 mixture at the dentists, contains no oxygen, and repeated breathing in and out of the balloon will cause a fall in the blood level of oxygen. Since the brain does not initiate changes in inspiration and expiration based solely on the levels of o2, the body will not compensate and you will eventually suffer hypoxia. This is not scaremongering, but a biological fact. Repeated inhaling of inert gasses will cause oxygen depletion and other secondary and tertiary syndromes.

Therefore, it is not unreasonable to assume that any drug that decreases the CNS response to co2 will cause hypoxia in high enough/prolonged doses. We know this is true with opioids, and it could also be true with methoxetamine and other NMDA antagonists.

Dwayne, if you do not believe me, look it up. Here's a simple link from wiki explaining the control of breathing.

The following quote is from the above link:
"Drugs can greatly influence the control of respiration. Opioids and anaesthetic drugs tend to depress ventilation, especially with regards to Carbon Dioxide response. Stimulants such as Amphetamines can cause hyperventilation."

fwiw I've definitely seen friends turn blue/purple in the lips from repeated nitrous chargers. i.e. (using a whipped cream canister) taking three chargers in succession, no inhalation of o2 between hits, complete with holding in each it ~10seconds.

and the plastic nozzles of whipped cream things do NOT get that cold.

Man forums can be a bit silly sometimes.

So to clarify I did take 800mg SAMe, and Piracetam earlier in the day of the trip, and took the methoxetamine with 2.5g mushrooms, although methoxetamine was definitely the most prominent drug in the mixture. I doubt these other drugs played a part in this possible oxygen deprivation.

And to the above poster, I have done dissociatives very extensively for years, so I may have somewhat of a permanent tolerance to the NMDA antagonists. I assure you I did take 450mg over the 10 hour period. I am not trying to spread fear about drugs, but I would like the dangers to be taken into consideration, especially for brand new chemicals like this. I have also done my fair share of nitrous oxide, finishing a 20 Lbs tank in a night with a few friends. Our lips were most definitely blue, and this was not from cold as we were doing it out of balloons which gave the gas time to heat up. People also "fish out" lose consciousness and fall to the ground twitching when they get really high on nitrous. I'm not sure if this effect has anything to do with oxygen deprivation but it seems to me like it might.

Here's a quote from an erowid report on MXE:
"More seriously, the Mrs reckons I seemed to be short of breath at times while in the hole. She herself has breathing problems and she did 2 50mg lines over the course of the night (and a little bit of good old-fashioned K in between) following a bit of Mephedrone over the course of the day leading up to it. Having breathing issues herself she is very aware of her respiratory system and said that she felt like the MXE could be acting as a serious respiratory depressant, unlike ketamine.

Giving that this stuff is more-ish in much the same way as K and is easy to get carried away with, we both feel concerned that there is a genuine danger in this and a risk that fatal overdose from some sort of respiratory failure is possible.

I don't want to end this report on a downer but its something that needs to be considered."

Granted they were using other chemicals aswell, but I don't think thats any reason to dismiss the issue. Methoxetamine is very widely available and affordable, I think it has a similar potential for addiction to ketamine, so I assume people will or already are taking obscene amounts of this drug. I myself have spent time dependent on ketamine and the doses can get ridiculous very quickly. I thought the point of this forum was harm reduction, so I think we should keep discussion on the risks of this new drug open until we learn alot more about its mechanism of action.

Well anyway, I agree it does seem like there could be some very important dangers associated with MXE, at least in the amount you did, haha.... so.... DONT DO THAT MUCH! :D

Anyway, disagreements about the imminent danger represented by Nitrous notwithstanding, your concern about MXE seems very appropriate and important, thanks for bringing it up.

Yes the internet can get silly, what can I say?

Nitrous used at the dentist is mixed with oxygen, I´m not sure at what ratio, but I think it´s 50/50.

Nitrous intended to be used for whipping cream is pure nitrous.
Nitrous displaces oxygen molecules, if you only breath nitrous your lips WILL turn blue and you WILL black out.