Tryptamines DMT and the pineal gland

What's the deal?

I've read and enjoyed Strassman's "Spirit Molecule", but no responsible neurologist/biologist takes such ideas seriously.

The human pineal gland produces melatonin, not DMT (nor anything like it). The trouble with some psychopharmacologists is that they ingest the drugs they're studying, and then immediately come up with unfounded, Leary-esque revelations. Maybe he was thinking of the Colorado river toad and 5-MeO-DMT when he came up with the theory...

As for chakras and the like, it's pretty obvious to me that that's just make believe. I'm NOT against make believe - it can be a lot of fun, but I think it can also be dangerous when taken too seriously.

I'm a big Hunter S. Thompson fan, but I take much of his work with a grain of salt. I think that sometimes, he's joking around or perhaps just unsure of his facts.

I fear the day some new age whacko enlightens us to the fact that there are subcutaneous cannabis seeds in the bottoms of our feet: The "Seed of the Sole", one might say.

Kids will be taking chunks out of their heels and planting them in the backyard.

At least (I hope) most intelligent grown-ups don't take this kind of stuff seriously.

Peacelove,
Aldousage

dont take things seriously ,its not how their meant to be taken sometimes, you need to look at the intentions of people.

many times you gotta think in metaphor.

as for the case of your rick strassman book (which totaly sucked ass btw), its science, which is meant to be proven wrong until something becomes a proven fact. he proved nothing in his book.

Aldousage said:

What's the deal?

I've read and enjoyed Strassman's "Spirit Molecule", but no responsible neurologist/biologist takes such ideas seriously.

The human pineal gland produces melatonin, not DMT (nor anything like it). The trouble with some psychopharmacologists is that they ingest the drugs they're studying, and then immediately come up with unfounded, Leary-esque revelations. Maybe he was thinking of the Colorado river toad and 5-MeO-DMT when he came up with the theory...

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Isn't the theory the idea that DMT is produced in the pineal gland just a theory. As far as I was aware no one actually know's where DMT is produced in the brain. Strassman was just pointing out that evidence suggests it may be the pineal gland. (I may be wrong here, I'm halfway through reading the spirit molrcule)

Aldousage said:

As for chakras and the like, it's pretty obvious to me that that's just make believe. I'm NOT against make believe - it can be a lot of fun, but I think it can also be dangerous when taken too seriously.

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I think it's meant to be symbolic, however I wouldn't know, I don't believe in them either. You should at least put up some decent arguments though, if you're going to tell people that believe in them that it's fake, seeing as how obvious it is to you.

Aldousage said:

I'm a big Hunter S. Thompson fan, but I take much of his work with a grain of salt. I think that sometimes, he's joking around or perhaps just unsure of his facts.

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His books are fiction, glad I could clear things up on this point

Aldousage said:

I fear the day some new age whacko enlightens us to the fact that there are subcutaneous cannabis seeds in the bottoms of our feet: The "Seed of the Sole", one might say.

Kids will be taking chunks out of their heels and planting them in the backyard.

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Ahhhh.......No comment[/QUOTE]

Aldousage said:

At least (I hope) most intelligent grown-ups don't take this kind of stuff seriously.
Peacelove,
Aldousage

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i was under the impression the pineal gland DID produce SOME DMT. i suppose i was wrong again, lol.

To Wayne Gale, re Hunter S. Thompson:
I was being facetious. The fact that you didn't understand that, and attempted to be smug about your error, makes it funnier. His work was, by his own admission, "semi-autobiographical".

Aldousage said:

What's the deal?

I've read and enjoyed Strassman's "Spirit Molecule", but no responsible neurologist/biologist takes such ideas seriously.

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Well, look at it this way. Psychedelics were off the map completely, and to boot, they were taboo. He at least stirred something up. Things are moving along now, slowly but surely.

It's a case of everybody doing a little, in a diverse number of ways.

Maybe his ideas were a bit whacky .... but hey, psychedelics are that kind of thing.

I wonder why so many folks want a firm scientific rationale to be found for psychs! It's not going to make them any more or less enjoyable. Might lead to the manufacture of new ones, but IMO we have enough to keep us going (I do appreciate that there is a horde of psychonauts out there who will disagree, but I respect you guys and am certainly not talking for you - I've been there myself).

strassman is developing new techniques now in New Mexico with a current launched study (launching I think maybe) measuring endogenous levels of psychedelic tryptamines (DMT, 5-meo-DMT, etc).

His ideas were presented as a theory, iirc, not a scientific fact.

Quick! Someone reach a finger up my nose and massage my pineal, ASAP!!

Haha.

DMT isn't active without an MAOI anyways unless its smoked. Why would anyone think endogenous DMT to be active? Beats me....my theory is that its just there chillin'.... What evidence do I have to back this up? Absolutely none; however, that problem didn't seem to stop Strassman. I think I'll write a book called DMT: It's Cool. Or something like that.

^ hey roger i think the MAO that needs to be inhibited is in the stomach. This allows DMT to absorb through the stomach lining and enter the brain. Endogenous DMT is synthesized in the brain and would be active (although iirc there is a slight amount of MAO-A in certain brain regions).

hey whats your favorite huxley book?

Aldousage said:

What's the deal?

I've read and enjoyed Strassman's "Spirit Molecule", but no responsible neurologist/biologist takes such ideas seriously.

The human pineal gland produces melatonin, not DMT (nor anything like it).

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Um, you don't think melatonin and DMT are pretty similar? Chemically, they are almost the same.

The trouble with some psychopharmacologists is that they ingest the drugs they're studying, and then immediately come up with unfounded, Leary-esque revelations. Maybe he was thinking of the Colorado river toad and 5-MeO-DMT when he came up with the theory...

Click to expand...

He based in it on the fact DMT is found in the human body, allegedly at higher concentrations during pineal-activity. But I have read that the methods with which to extract DMT from cerebospinal fluid and urine could inadvertently be reacting with endogenous tryptamines and creating n,nDMT as a metabolite...

As for chakras and the like, it's pretty obvious to me that that's just make believe. I'm NOT against make believe - it can be a lot of fun, but I think it can also be dangerous when taken too seriously.

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By saying something is "make-believe" your implying that no-one takes it seriously. People do; people base their entire existence around their chakra's, so its more then a game; its a belief system. Really, have a look at the chakras and their positions; I view them as older names for internal organs, new age-y westerners just think it sounds shanti.

Why is it 'obvious' that there are no specivic points where energy can accumulate in the body? I understand my fat cells do so....?

Aldousage said:

At least (I hope) most intelligent grown-ups don't take this kind of stuff seriously.

Peacelove,
Aldousage

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I agree in part; I also think tht grown ups should defintely re-consider these things a bit. I think Strassman and his book are shit (well, he'not shit, thats kinda mean, but the book is) not because the ideas are stupid, but becuase he failed to really write about anything useful whatsoever.

Either way, rationalism is good and healthy, but means litle when surfing the Void with aliens.....

Aldousage said:

To Wayne Gale, re Hunter S. Thompson:
I was being facetious. The fact that you didn't understand that, and attempted to be smug about your error, makes it funnier. His work was, by his own admission, "semi-autobiographical".

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So you knew his books are also semi-fictional, yet you think he may have got some of his facts wrong. That doesn't make sense.

IGNVS said:

hey whats your favorite huxley book?

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Timeless moment.

His books are fiction, glad I could clear things up on this point

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It;'s actually what he termed 'Gonzo journalism' which entials that it's exagerreated/fiction, but desinged to actually accurately convey the verite of what he's writing about. Stories sometimes get to the truth better (or carry the heart of what it's about) better than straight reportage

Wayne, look up "facetious" for more details. wwwDOTdictionaryDOTcom. Be patient. We'll get through this together, but to save everyone else the hassle/embarrassment, if you have any more difficulty understanding my posts please send me a PM.

I think that "The Perennial Philosophy" is Huxley's best work. I also enjoyed "The Doors of Perception" and, less so, "Heaven and Hell". I can't remember "Brave New World", because it's been twenty years since I read it.

Peacelove,
Aldousage

You can't lump in all alternative - not widely accepted, not mainstream - theories into one. Just because one or many of them appear little more than quack theories does not mean that they all are. You have to take everything with a grain of salt. Buried in the madness is a lot of real truth, gems of genius, predictions and philosophies that ring true. Many of Leary's ideas were groundbreaking and changed not only the face of psychology but also pop culture (to a huge degree). Even lies have extreme significance once they've entered the collection conscious (sphere of communication) and then they become True, more or less.

If you're looking for hard science in spiritual philosophy, you simply can't find it. That's the nature of the matter in the first place

samadhi_smiles said:

^ hey roger i think the MAO that needs to be inhibited is in the stomach. This allows DMT to absorb through the stomach lining and enter the brain. Endogenous DMT is synthesized in the brain and would be active (although iirc there is a slight amount of MAO-A in certain brain regions).

Click to expand...

Is there any way of knowing (or estimating) how much endogenous DMT there actually is? I mean, if there's just a few milligrams it would be one thing; but if there was a significantly larger amount there could be something to that theory. Too bad there's not more research into this area (or on second thought its probably a good thing we're not digging around in living human brains for evidence of endogenous DMT haha)

^ nooo its probably much less than a few milligrams even. Its probably on the order of micrograms I'd guess in 'normal' folks.

Strassman is working on new techniques right now to measure levels of endogenous tryptamines (focusing on DMT). So hopefully in a couple years we will have an answer to your question.

Don't forget that when you ingest a drug in any form it doesn't automatically go to the same place it would if it were produced endogenously. Structure is important bidness peeps don't go fergettin'.

Peace,
PL

I tend to agree with the OP that the East Asian spirituality that many psychonauts use to explain their experiences is mostly religious in nature. As a skeptic, atheist, iconoclastic naturalist, I'm not so big into religious stuff, so I discard most of it as incompatible with my belief system.

That's not to say that all of Hinduism/Buddhism/Taoism is bunk in my eyes. In particular, yoga seems to be a valuable tool for flexibility, exercise, etc. Recently I have been researching kundalini yoga, which seems to focus on the spinal cord and the whole chakra thing. I don't buy the existence of the chakras as physical entities but I agree that they are symbolic and may be functional for those practicing pranayama and meditation. Apparently with the proper application of kundalini yoga, it is possible to enter a state of "awakened kundalini," a mystical state similar to a psychedelic experience. A cool video I found which actually shows people doing some of the yoga is available on YouTube, and there are plenty of other instructional texts on this stuff if you can get through the religious purification that they tend to start with.

No scientific studies have confirmed the occurrence of DMT in the brain in vivo. Certainly the pineal gland is poorly understood beyond its melatonin secretion. (I've been wondering lately what pinoline is, it seems to be mysterious.) Nonetheless there must be something in the body that produces a non-drug-induced psychedelic or mystical state. Strassman thinks it's DMT because DMT has been found in trace amounts in urine and cerebrospinal fluid, or elsewhere in the body (but not the brain, since nobody vivisects brains). It's also chemically similar to melatonin as mentioned above, and it seems to be easy to break down since it has such a short duration of action. I think it's a good candidate for the "endogenous psychedelic" but it could just as easily be another lesser known tryptamine or even serotonin itself doing weird stuff. It's not an answered question.

I've been trying to induce a kundalini awakening in myself but so far to no avail. The best I managed was a kind of mini-acid flashback, by practicing the breath of fire, shoulder-stand (sarvangasana), plow (halasana), and various other kundalini yoga asanas (poses) in locations I had previously tripped in. It didn't last very long and I was unable to replicate it, so there's no confirmation that this stuff works from me. I haven't given up yet, though.