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Dissociatives [Ketamine Subthread] Dangers & Risks

silentscience

silentscience

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Dec 2, 2005
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Ketamine Subthread: Dangers & Risks​

This is the subthread of the Big and Dandy Ketamine thread in which to discuss dangers of the use and abuse of ketamine. Please direct all questions and discussion about Ketamine dangers and risks to this thread.

For ketamine's long term side effects visit the designated subthread for that!


[original post:]

Ckeck this out:

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSHKG8463320070621

the article says that ketamine can be linked to acute renal failure and/or liver damage! WTF? I thought this stuff was pretty safe up till now.
 
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reuters said:
Ketamine is mostly used as a veterinary anesthetic. In humans, it causes hallucinations and high blood pressure.
Click to expand...
While it may slightly raise blood pressure, it is still not as bad as coffee. So there is no need for an "alert" here.

As for the renal failure, this is indeed an issue. HOWEVER, it seems to be an issue with very specific populations.

I am willing to bet that the renal problems associated with Ketamine use have more to do with additives to certain brands than the Ketamine itself. It is true that heavy (and by heavy I mean IVing a bottle/day) Ketamine use does correlate with a high incidence of renal problems (specifically urinary tract infection, at least in the Toronto area), but there seems to be no pharmacological correlation between ketamine itself and such problems as far as I know. Furthermore, amongst K users in my area, since I live 2 hours away from this group of friends, my source of Ketamine is different and more consistent. I use Neon-brand Ketamine (which is about 90% S-ketamine and 10% R-Ketamine) for the most part, have used it for 4 years (responsibly) and have never, ever had any problems from it.

From what I hear and read, the urinary problems seem to be highest in Ontario and Louisiana, although my information is probably incomplete.

This leads me to believe that such problems have more to do with either additives to other brands (I believe Ketalar is the most popular brand), or due to R-ketamine (which is highly unlikely), but not due to the direct actions of the drug. Keep in mind, of course, that rediculous abuse of any substance, even lettuce, can lead to negative effects.

As for the liver thing, my friends report this every now and then, I have only experienced it once after a long binge and then a heavy fatty meal. F&B mentioned that it is due to spasm of gall bladder than the liver itself which makes sense, especially in the case I experienced.

I am not saying that these risks should be trivialized, but what I AM saying is that they are not as bad as this article makes them sound.

Then again, there are people whose use of ketamine puts us all to shame. I have personally known someone who injected hundreds on mgs every few hours. This is very irrisponsible IMO, but even then the fact that he's alive and functional shows just how safe of a drug K really is.

I honestly believe Ketamine is the safest recreational drug out there, and that responsible use of it is not only safe, but beneficial to health. I am currently trying to compile a database of all the health benifits that research has found for Ketamine.

EDIT:
reuters said:
but urine and blood samples taken from some of them tested positive for ketamine and benzodiazepam -- a common sedative-hypnotic drug.
Click to expand...

I just noticed this. Apparently I've been missing out on something since I've never, ever come across this "common" drug called "benzodiazepam". Yep, leave it to the media to make potential medicines into monsters 8)
 
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Thats interesting that you believe it is beneficial. In what way? Anti-depressant?

I have also abused K so much in the last 2 years, I probably do put you to shame (not to brag). I have never shot up, but have snorted bag after bag (sometimes doing an oz. in 2 weeks! only twice though), probably totalling around 7-10 oz. total in 2 years. I have taken breaks up to 3 months though. I have never had urinary infections, although I have noticed that sometimes I have to pee a lot. Like every 20 minutes. This usually only lasts for a day and then goes away.
 
also, liver damage is not felt until its too late. so how can you say, just because someone had a gall spasm, that it's not eating your liver?
 
It is beneficial as antidepressant (it is the only thing that worked for my bipolar, it made me not commit suicide several times, it helped me find a job too), it lowers tolerance to other drugs, it is beneficial as neuroprotectant, it is also even proven to cure rabies!! Amongst other things. I will publish a list of journal articles I'm collecting once I am done.

As for liver damage, the gall bladder thing is a fact. It seems to be not widely understood but it happens to heavy users. I guess you can say that if you feel it, then this is a sign that you are crossing the line. Maybe FnB will shed more light on this. In any case it is by no means a good thing, but it CAN be avoided as my experience has proven over the years. And as I mentioned - abuse of ANY substance will lead to toxicity, even beneficial ones like Ketamine. However, Ketamine has been used medicinally for more than 40 years, and it is medically used as an anaesthetic for children and people with liver problems due to its extreme safety.

But again I say: the abuse of ANYTHING *will* cause toxicity.
 
true, I cant wait to see your list of articles! I have been having some interesting discussions about K lately that have made me question WTF am I doing?

personally, from the vibe I get from K I FEEL that it is okay to do regularly.

The last bag of K I got gave me some horrible feelings however. No good high, just a depressed, negative and all around shitty feeling. the wierd thing is that it came from the same batch as some really good stuff I had. strange, I have never had this before.
 
silentscience said:
The last bag of K I got gave me some horrible feelings however. No good high, just a depressed, negative and all around shitty feeling. the wierd thing is that it came from the same batch as some really good stuff I had. strange, I have never had this before.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... this sounds like a discussion we had a while back...

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=247482 and http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=255305


There is definitely a lot of that 'crap' Ket around - in fact I haven't seen any of the normal stuff in ages. It's that bad that I refuse to use it because it doesn't offer an enjoyable high. It is very different experience from the 'good' Ket.


The strange thing is, I know people that had been using K for years and years with no negative long or short term effects. But since this crappy stuff has become more popular, I have heard of two people that have got a water infection from its use. At first I thought it was just them getting dehydrated, but now I am not so sure. Am pretty certain that it's not the Ket itself, but an additive (from the 'human' version??) - or even worse - a different drug altogether (eg: Tiletamine).


Would be nice to get to the bottom of this, as there are still a lot of people using this stuff...
 
Hey Jamshyd (how are/were the samurai):

I am going to have to half-disagree with you here. Non-competitive NMDA antagonists (such as ketamine) have been shown to block visceral sensory neurons which innervate the urinary tract (located in the dorsal lemniscus). I believe that this block is necessary to make people susceptible to the irritation/damage and cystitis caused by both ketamine and some common cuts.

However, my long-term observations (which luckily has been able to far surpass clinical counterparts) seem to suggest that the level of abuse necessary to cause significat problems such as *hematuria, debilitating pain, ulcers of the bladder, reduction in capacity due to thickening of the bladder wall w/ scar tissue showing mild eosinophilic infiltration* require levels of abuse which are fairly inhuman (1+ grams per day intravenously for periods of months to years for most people).

However, if you are experiencing these symptoms, you need to inform a doctor that this is a NON-INFECTIVE cystitis (ie - you do not have a urinary tract infection) as they will push you out w/ antibiotics which will have no effect. This can and has been confirmed in all cases that I have been able to oversee when the urine cultures get back. Get a referral to someone in cystology and ask for the same treatment as those with interstitial cystitis (elmiron, which supplements the natural glycosaminoglycan wall of the bladder)
 
The samurai send you origami wishes of good health ;) (ps. I'm back in Canada).

Very interesting information. However, as you note - the big dangers come from chronic use of what is considered a full-anaesthetic dose. Safe as Ketamine is, chronic use of such rediculous doses can lead to toxicity as with any other drug, not surprisingly.

Still though, what do you think of (apparently) common UTI infections amongst certain groups of users (and the fact that these groups tend to be geographically concentrated as far as I know)? Do you think there is a possibility that althoug what you said about large doses is true, additives could also have a hand in lower doses?

But thank you so much for your insight. Now if only Doctors would actually listen to you if you attempt to self-diagnose ;)

And a note to all: To give credit, I got at least 25% of the info I posted above from leungkachong, so his say takes precedence over mine.
 
Hmm I never got physicly sick from K, but I had some that was very diffrent from what I had tried back around 2000-2002ish. This was a year or two ago in the Chicago burbs, it started out feeling hella numb and hit quick, then suddenly I felt what I can only assume a schitzophrenic feels like. Me and a friend were sitting outside in his back yard, just us not a soul around, and I heard people laughing at me, from all around, I was peering real hard into the dark like wtf is that? I seriously went schitzoid for 30-45 min maybe an hour till it fully went away, I don;t know if it was pcp, or some other strong animal anestetic some fucks G'd from a vet and just cooked but it was weird. Never happened again. Maybe it was a diffrent isomer like just the left or just the right like you said? Or some weird chem I don't even know..
 
I think its funny you guys are so K'ed out as to claim ketamine is not harmfull as a recreational drug. I am not sure there is enough clinical evidence to make an informed decision either way about the exact extent of the dangers but just look at any K head and you will see that its far from harmless as a recreational drug. BTW, for the person who claimed its the most harmless rec drug, Cannabis, Opiates, enough said.

Also do you understand the extent to which K impairs your visual perception even with light usage? It is one of the least safe rec drugs out there.
 
^ You seem to have missed the fact that everyone in this thread is talking about the possible dangers of Ketamine.

The point is that when you compare it to other drugs with responsible use, it is one of the least toxic drugs there is (yes, that includes cannabis and opiates, the latter of which has "death" as a possible side effect of overdose).

And please do provide evidence about your visual perception thing.

ps. Your derrogatory tone is not appreciated. Nor is your assumption that all ketamine porponents are "k'd out" or "k-heads" or whatever word you use to make us look bad.
 
I'd say cannabis and k are about on par, personally. Potheads have the same 'visual impairment' factor, and pot is equally addictive.

and it's true, k is nontoxic (in most common dosages) and VERY hard to OD on. I've taken massive doses with no bad effects except for panic.

Worlwithin is right in a way though, we don't really know what its doing long term yet.
 
there have been many cases, I've read on that people have died from simply forgetting to breath 8o <-(little guy gasping for air) , I'm sure you would need a very high dose for this situation. but imagine. if you can simply forget to breath, then think of what else your body can simply forget to do. I myself have never tried ketamine but. i hear it is rather dangerous.
 
Subushie said:
there have been many cases, I've read on that people have died from simply forgetting to breath 8o <-(little guy gasping for air) , I'm sure you would need a very high dose for this situation. but imagine. if you can simply forget to breath, then think of what else your body can simply forget to do. I myself have never tried ketamine but. i hear it is rather dangerous.
Click to expand...
Sounds like complete BS, and it's actually a really irresponsible myth. On high doses of dissociatives it certainly FEELS like you can forget to stop breathing, and people who actually believe this might start panicking.

The fact is ketamine is considered an unusually safe anesthetic because even at well above recreational doses, its impact on breathing is minimal and it leaves the cough and gag reflexes intact.
 
Jamshyd said:
It is beneficial as antidepressant
Click to expand...


AMEN too that ... I find it a wonderful AD ... granted due to tolerance use is severly moderated.
 
emjay said:
Sounds like complete BS, and it's actually a really irresponsible myth. On high doses of dissociatives it certainly FEELS like you can forget to stop breathing, and people who actually believe this might start panicking.

The fact is ketamine is considered an unusually safe anesthetic because even at well above recreational doses, its impact on breathing is minimal and it leaves the cough and gag reflexes intact.
Click to expand...
That is true.

To be fair however, there is a strange side-effect to IV ketamine in some people (which, although related to breathing, has nothing to do with respiratory depression). It is a kind of transient apnea. To my knowledge, it is simply a curious pause in breathing, and it never did harm to anyone (I could be wrong though). But I know for sure that leungkachong can say more wrt. to this since he had some clinical interest in it.

Personally, I have never experienced it.
 
emjay said:
The fact is ketamine is considered an unusually safe anesthetic because even at well above recreational doses, its impact on breathing is minimal and it leaves the cough and gag reflexes intact.
Click to expand...

yerse, i do believe they give it to babies at far higher than the recreational dose,

so acute dangers must be relatively non-existant.
 
sources for K deaths please?

I heard that its happened a few times, but usually due to mixing with other drugs.
 
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