Dissociatives [Ketamine Subthread] Dangers & Risks

[EntheoDjinn]

Where on earth did that vision problem thing pop out of? I haven't heard about this supposed "danger" until this thread, and none of the people talking about it here have bothered present actual data.......

They have presented data though - they've talked about their subjective experience, and questioned whether there is a link to their Ketamine use.

Much of the research carried out with psychedelics is subjective - hence "bioassays". If it's it's so-called "objective" scientific evidence (what I think you imply by the term "actual data") that is being sought, that comes later - when a working hypothesis is formed around a perceived link between two or more events.

I have few grudges with science - it has after all led to the production of LSD, superb sound systems, computers and etc., - however I do wish that qualitative data was given more credence. The oft-quoted hard distinction of subjective/objective is really quite fuzzy.

"Actual data" includes any knowledge (observation, experience, heresay, & etc.) - how you sift that into your preferred category/framework of reality for research/testing is another matter.

Just my humble opinion though

 

[Jamshyd]

Not to make it sound like I'm antagonizing, ED. Your point is perfectly understandable with new substances such as the recent psychedelics, but Ketamine has been around for more than 40 years and has been used medicinally (more than most people think) as well as recreationally all that time.

Yet, so much myth still surrounds its use. But you know what I meant by factual data. I am not asking for empirical studies - just some sort of statistically signfinicant ammount of evidence that is also historically relevant. My point is that the hearing thing never came up before this thread as far as I know.

Let me demonstrate what I'm criticising here by using a hypothetical situation (assuming everone here knows that bananas were never reported to cause hearing impairement):

Person A (out of the blue): "Did you know that bananas cause hearing impairment?"
Person B: "You know, ever since I started eating bananas I've been needing to raise my ipod volume more and more!"
Person C: "Really? that explains why I am more frequently asking people to repeat things since I started bananas.

Meanwhile, we're forgetting that all three people live in downtown detroit and blast music really loud whenever they listen to it. Oh, and they take advil regularly!

See? Now we suddenly decided that bananas cause hearing loss!

EDIT: changed example slightly since salicilates actually DO cause hearing loss in high doses, lol

 

[theWorldWithin]

I cannot track down the paper I found about ketamines visual impairment, if anyone else can help then please do. I have alot of papers studying the acute imparment but cant find the one on long term impairment.

To those of you saying ketamine is on par with the dangers and intensity of cannabis, please get real, you are severely discrediting yourselves. Ketamine is widely reguarded as one of if not the most intense psychedelics, results in depersonalization at an alarming rate, definitely excititoxic, and will most always result in delusional states with regular use. Cannabis is neuroprotective(THC & cannabidiol), not even overtly psychedelic for all users, and rarely results in depersonalization or delusional states of mind after the accute effects have worn off (although I will admit it has a prominent element of dissasociation to the subjective high). The very fact that some users dose on cannabis 3 + times per day is testament to its high margin of safety. I would love for you to show me a functional K addict to doses 3 times a day! I really dont want this to turn into a K vs Cannabis debate here as its pointless to the subject at hand but I just though I would point out the utter idiocy in that line of argument. Also not going to suggest that cannabis is harmless in any sense, but certainly not even in the same ballpark as K.

We all love K and agree that its smashing but I am not that in love as to suggest its safe in any way.

 

[silentscience]

I have used k more than 3 times a day for months on end, using in the morning within an hour of waking, and continuing pretty much all day. I went to school, got an A average, live in a nicely furnished apartment with my girlfriend and go to work. I may have had SOME problems but I was still functional. So there

 

[Jamshyd]

TWW: I won't argue too much with you, because you obviously want to turn this into a my-drug-is-better-than-your-drug debate. I'll just post a few replies re: your claim about "excitotoxicity", because the following (which I just did in a few minutes so pardon my sloppyness and lack of highlights) proves the exact opposite:

[Neuroprotective effects of anesthetics]

[Ketamine racemate and S-(+)-ketamine. Cerebrovascular effects and neuroprotection following focal ischemia]

Ketamine-induced gastroprotection during endotoxemia: role of heme-oxygenase-1.

Effect of the noncompetitive NMDA antagonists MK-801 and ketamine on the spastic Han-Wistar mutant: a rat model of excitotoxicity.

That is assuming you are quite familiar with the endless literature about the neuroprotective effects of non-competetive NMDA-antagonists in general (not to mention, their use for therapy against neurodegenerative disorders), of which Ketamine is one.

Here are some sample of uses of Ketamine that many have probably never heard of:

Sedation with ketamine: a safe and effective anaesthetic agent for children in the developing world.

Ketamine anesthesia at high altitude.

Anaesthesia for cleft lip surgery--challenge in rural Nepal.

You claim you don't want to turn this into a K vs Cannabis debate, and yet that is exactly what your entire post about. Ketamine HAS dangers, but you actually aren't discussing them, you're just trying to prove that cannabis is better!

Edit: btw, I looked for the visual thing for you (again, very quickly since I don't have time) and instead of finding your study I found this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

These results, taken together, demonstrate that after ketamine administration cortical circuits continue to processes visual patterns in a dose-dependent manner despite the animal's behavioral dissociation. While perceptual experience is difficult to evaluate under these conditions, oculomotor patterns revealed that the brain not only registers but also acts upon its sensory input, employing it to drive a sensorimotor loop and even responding to a sensory conflict by engaging in spontaneous perception-related state changes. The ketamine-anesthetized monkey preparation thereby offers a safe and viable paradigm for the behavioral and electrophysiological investigation of issues related to conscious perception and anesthesia, as well as neural mechanisms of basic sensory processing.

Seems like Ketamine doesn't effect monkey's vision even when they're on it!!

 

[EntheoDjinn]

Not to make it sound like I'm antagonizing, ED. Your point is perfectly understandable with new substances such as the recent psychedelics, but Ketamine has been around for more than 40 years and has been used medicinally (more than most people think) as well as recreationally all that time.......

Point taken

 

[theWorldWithin]

Ketamine is neuroprotective at FULL ANESTHETIC DOSES. This does not apply to sub anesthetic doses (IE all recreational levels) at which the evidence is overwhelming for its excitotoxic profile.

As for your improved vision:

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/57/12/1139

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/316/1/315

"Thus, both visual recognition memory and working memory indices were affected. Overall the present findings confirm that ketamine interferes with multiple aspects of cognition at subanesthetic doses in monkeys. "

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=8664119908a6439b94b37950759fcf57

Also I expressly stated I did not want to establish a cannabis vs ketamine thread because its pointless, but I will point out obvious idiocy. Also what makes you think cannabis is "my" drug anyway, I never denied its risks. I feel you are one of the most respected and knowledgable posters on this board but I also feel that your judgement is impaired on the issue because of your affection for ketamine.

No one really needs clinical papers to realize ketamine will fuck up your brain if you abuse it. I have reletively little interest in Ketamine anymore and feel like I am making an arguement to an audiance I can not win with.

 

[Bare_head]

i think that both drugs have its positives and negatives.. imagine what its like for people who love ketamine and weed.. cause i do

 

[Jamshyd]

Ketamine is neuroprotective at FULL ANESTHETIC DOSES. This does not apply to sub anesthetic doses (IE all recreational levels) at which the evidence is overwhelming for its excitotoxic profile.

So then that would make Ketamine the first drug to be safer when overdosed? You have an interesting logic there.

As for your improved vision:

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/57/12/1139

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/316/1/315

"Thus, both visual recognition memory and working memory indices were affected. Overall the present findings confirm that ketamine interferes with multiple aspects of cognition at subanesthetic doses in monkeys. "

Unless I read wrong, both these studies involve single ("accute") trials rather than chronic uses.

Yes, when I'm on K, my hearing and vision do get weaker (it is a dissociative after all). But they come back even better once its effects are gone. What these studies are telling you is that Ketamine does, in fact, alter perception (ie. it gets you high - big news!)

(from your 3rd post)Ketamine impairs multiple cognitive domains in rhesus monkeys

Translation: Ketamine gets monkeys high. Again, the study doesn't involve chronic testing.

No one really needs clinical papers to realize ketamine will fuck up your brain if you abuse it..

But thats what I've been saying ALL ALONG! Anything taking to excess is toxic! I honestly don't understand why you're so determined to prove that I think Ketamine is as harmless as water. I don't. I am simply trying to dispell myths surrounding it.

 

[ntype]

i think that both drugs have its positives and negatives.. imagine what its like for people who love ketamine and weed.. cause i do

haha yea. double dose crew. throw in some acid and E and you got problems

 

[FractalStructure]

i always thought ketamine was safe, at least, besides being pretty addictive to some people (whenever its around, im doing a bump =P, but i get a few "liqs" (1000mg vials) only like once a year... so after its gone, no wd or anything like that obviously. I'll always miss it though.

Anyway, besides that, I've heard both that it causes olney's lesions, but also that it "protects" your brain. Also, NMDA brain damage (ket, dxm, pcp), if it does happen in humans is from SERIOUS use.

Any other dangers besides OD (and that will just knock you out unless you have a RIDICULOUS AMOUNT and decide to do it all, and then ur an IDIOT), I have not heard about at all.

And lastly, ketamine being hard on the nose, burning from that first little line, but by #4 its like snorting adderall (for me, adderall doesnt really burn, and ive seen people doing up to 100mg in ONE LINE, including all binders/waxes of course.... it only burns with huge lines IME).

So, huh, i guess ketamine use is somewhat detrimental afterall? =/

 

[emjay]

Anyway, besides that, I've heard both that it causes olney's lesions, but also that it "protects" your brain. Also, NMDA brain damage (ket, dxm, pcp), if it does happen in humans is from SERIOUS use.

Sorry, it's not clear if you're making a distinction between "NMDA brain damage" and Olney's lesions, but there really is none. The purported damage is that associated with Olney's lesions.

The thing is, researchers have never been able to find or even produce Olney's lesions in primates or humans, even with regular doses of close to what is the equivalant of a gram for the average person, and that is FAR beyond any useful recreational or even anesthetic dose.

It's only been able to be produced in rats. And even then, only adult rats - researchers have been unable to reproduce the phenomenon in babies. All this suggests that there is something about the physiology of an adult rat that makes them susceptible. Interestingly enough, researchers have found that 5-HT agonists (such as LSD and psilocybin) can actually prevent the neurotoxic effects in rats.

 

[fastandbulbous]

there have been many cases, I've read on that people have died from simply forgetting to breath <-(little guy gasping for air) , I'm sure you would need a very high dose for this situation. but imagine. if you can simply forget to breath, then think of what else your body can simply forget to do. I myself have never tried ketamine but. i hear it is rather dangerous.

Your autonomic nervous system operates whether we are concious of it or not. Breathing is one of those things, it's just the fact that we can exert voluntary control over it that makes us think we have to remember to breathe. The actual trigger is the level of carbon dioxide in the blood - it reaches a certain level and it instigates the motor reflex for taking a breath. Drugs like opiates are dangerous because they reduce the sensitivity of the brain to carbon dioxide, but ketamine does not act on that part of the brain. If anything, the sympathetic stimulation ketamine produces is actually going to make you more inclined to breathe!

Anyway, besides that, I've heard both that it causes olney's lesions, but also that it "protects" your brain. Also, NMDA brain damage (ket, dxm, pcp), if it does happen in humans is from SERIOUS use.

Any other dangers besides OD (and that will just knock you out unless you have a RIDICULOUS AMOUNT and decide to do it all, and then ur an IDIOT), I have not heard about at all.

Olney's lesions have only been found in rats and rodents & primates are very different animals when it comes to pharmacology. Rats can eat MPTP until the cows come home and be perfectly OK; a couple of exposures for a primate and you've got the worst case of Parkinson's disease you'll ever see.

OD is 8000mg+ for your average adult. Thats one fuck off sized line or IM syringe


What it does do though is through NMDA antagonism it buggers up LTP (long term potentiation) and makes a mess of the whole process of memory formation; sometimes to the point of making people seem retarded while using heavily. Takes quite a while to get back to normal after stopping as well. Personally I've found that moments of heavy use played havoc with numerous vocabulary skills (being unable to recall, use or even speak coherent words)

 

[silentscience]

Ive never sounded or acted retarded and I've Ked myself o the moon hundreds of times

 

[7zark7]

And lastly, ketamine being hard on the nose, burning from that first little line,....

Really? I thought K was quite mild on the nose - especially compared to coke (with all its additives!) - because it is easily and completely 'dissolved' up there.

 

[fastandbulbous]

^ Solutions of ketamine have a relatively high pH in comparison to most drugs, so it'll irritate the fuck out of your nasal mucosa, more than most others

 

[silentscience]

wait I HAVE acted retarded, scratch that

and yeah the nose doesnt appreciate large amounts of k...not at all

 

[gabbachris]

I have never suffered nose sores off Ket only mucus build up. K does make me act retarded if I have a bit too much.

 

[silentscience]

I notice soreness around the sinus area and pains behind my eyes after snorting K, especially if it is really crystally

 

[spun420833]

One of the factors that made me stop using K in social settings was the way it limited my ability to communicate. The thought or idea would be fully formed in my mind, but it would be extremely hard to make it come out of my mouth. On the other hand, in more intimate settings speech often unnecessary. The ESP/Hive mind thing seems to be quite real on high doses with good friends.