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Homeopathy: A complete waste of $$, and fraud too!

VelocideX

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May 26, 2003
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Nothing infuriates me more in alternative medicine than Homeopathy.

It has no basis in science, and in fact contradicts large pillars of scientific knowledge that are now regarded as being fundamental to Physics and Chemistry.

I'll post specific parts from this wonderful website:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html

The "Remedies" Are Placebos

Homeopathic products are made from minerals, botanical substances, and several other sources. If the original substance is soluble, one part is diluted with either nine or ninety-nine parts of distilled water and/or alcohol and shaken vigorously (succussed); if insoluble, it is finely ground and pulverized in similar proportions with powdered lactose (milk sugar). One part of the diluted medicine is then further diluted, and the process is repeated until the desired concentration is reached. Dilutions of 1 to 10 are designated by the Roman numeral X (1X = 1/10, 3X = 1/1,000, 6X = 1/1,000,000). Similarly, dilutions of 1 to 100 are designated by the Roman numeral C (1C = 1/100, 3C = 1/1,000,000, and so on). Most remedies today range from 6X to 30X, but products of 30C or more are marketed.

A 30X dilution means that the original substance has been diluted 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth. Imagine placing a drop of red dye into such a container so that it disperses evenly. Homeopathy's "law of infinitesimals" is the equivalent of saying that any drop of water subsequently removed from that container will possess an essence of redness. Robert L. Park, Ph.D., a prominent physicist who is executive director of The American Physical Society, has noted that since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth.

Oscillococcinum, a 200C product "for the relief of colds and flu-like symptoms," involves "dilutions" that are even more far-fetched. Its "active ingredient" is prepared by incubating small amounts of a freshly killed duck's liver and heart for 40 days. The resultant solution is then filtered, freeze-dried, rehydrated, repeatedly diluted, and impregnated into sugar granules. If a single molecule of the duck's heart or liver were to survive the dilution, its concentration would be 1 in 100200. This huge number, which has 400 zeroes, is vastly greater than the estimated number of molecules in the universe (about one googol, which is a 1 followed by 100 zeroes). In its February 17, 1997, issue, U.S. News & World Report noted that only one duck per year is needed to manufacture the product, which had total sales of $20 million in 1996. The magazine dubbed that unlucky bird "the $20-million duck."

Actually, the laws of chemistry state that there is a limit to the dilution that can be made without losing the original substance altogether. This limit, which is related to Avogadro's number, corresponds to homeopathic potencies of 12C or 24X (1 part in 1024). Hahnemann himself realized that there is virtually no chance that even one molecule of original substance would remain after extreme dilutions. But he believed that the vigorous shaking or pulverizing with each step of dilution leaves behind a "spirit-like" essence -- "no longer perceptible to the senses" -- which cures by reviving the body's "vital force." Modern proponents assert that even when the last molecule is gone, a "memory" of the substance is retained. This notion is unsubstantiated. Moreover, if it were true, every substance encountered by a molecule of water might imprint an "essence" that could exert powerful (and unpredictable) medicinal effects when ingested by a person.

Many proponents claim that homeopathic products resemble vaccines because both provide a small stimulus that triggers an immune response. This comparison is not valid. The amounts of active ingredients in vaccines are much greater and can be measured. Moreover, immunizations produce antibodies whose concentration in the blood can be measured, but high-dilution homeopathic products produce no measurable response. In addition, vaccines are used preventively, not for curing symptoms.

Stan Polanski, a physician assistant working in public health near Asheville, North Carolina, has provided additional insights:
Imagine how many compounds must be present, in quantities of a molecule or more, in every dose of a homeopathic drug. Even under the most scrupulously clean conditions, airborne dust in the manufacturing facility must carry thousands of different molecules of biological origin derived from local sources (bacteria, viruses, fungi, respiratory droplets, sloughed skin cells, insect feces) as well as distant ones (pollens, soil particles, products of combustion), along with mineral particles of terrestrial and even extraterrestrial origin (meteor dust). Similarly, the "inert" diluents used in the process must have their own library of microcontaminants.
The dilution/potentiation process in homeopathy involves a stepwise dilution carried to fantastic extremes, with "succussion" between each dilution. Succussion involves shaking or rapping the container a certain way. During the step-by-step dilution process, how is the emerging drug preparation supposed to know which of the countless substances in the container is the One that means business? How is it that thousands (millions?) of chemical compounds know that they are required to lay low, to just stand around while the Potent One is anointed to the status of Healer? That this scenario could lead to distinct products uniquely suited to treat particular illnesses is beyond implausible.
Thus, until homeopathy's apologists can supply a plausible (nonmagical) mechanism for the "potentiation"-through-dilution of precisely one of the many substances in each of their products, it is impossible to accept that they have correctly identified the active ingredients in their products. Any study claiming to demonstrate effectiveness of a homeopathic medication should be rejected out-of-hand unless it includes a list of all the substances present in concentrations equal to or greater than the purported active ingredient at every stage of the dilution process, along with a rationale for rejecting each of them as a suspect.
The process of "proving" through which homeopaths decided which medicine matches which symptom is no more sensible. Provings involved taking various substances recording every twitch, sneeze, ache or itch that occurred afterward -- often for several days. Homeopathy's followers take for granted that every sensation reported was caused by whatever substance was administered, and that extremely dilute doses of that substance would then be just the right thing to treat anyone with those specific symptoms.

Dr. Park has noted that to expect to get even one molecule of the "medicinal" substance allegedly present in 30X pills, it would be necessary to take some two billion of them, which would total about a thousand tons of lactose plus whatever impurities the lactose contained.

Unimpressive "Research"

Since many homeopathic remedies contain no detectable amount of active ingredient, it is impossible to test whether they contain what their label says. Unlike most potent drugs, they have not been proven effective against disease by double-blind clinical testing. In fact, the vast majority of homeopathic products have never even been tested.

In 1990, an article in Review of Epidemiology analyzed 40 randomized trials that had compared homeopathic treatment with standard treatment, a placebo, or no treatment. The authors concluded that all but three of the trials had major flaws in their design and that only one of those three had reported a positive result. The authors concluded that there is no evidence that homeopathic treatment has any more value than a placebo [2].

In 1994, the journal Pediatrics published an article claiming that homeopathic treatment had been demonstrated to be effective against mild cases of diarrhea among Nicaraguan children [3]. The claim was based on findings that, on certain days, the "treated" group had fewer loose stools than the placebo group. However, Sampson and London noted: (1) the study used an unreliable and unproved diagnostic and therapeutic scheme, (2) there was no safeguard against product adulteration, (3) treatment selection was arbitrary, (4) the data were oddly grouped and contained errors and inconsistencies, (5) the results had questionable clinical significance, and (6) there was no public health significance because the only remedy needed for mild childhood diarrhea is adequate fluid intake to prevent or correct dehydration [4].

In 1995, Prescrire International, a French journal that evaluates pharmaceutical products, published a literature review that concluded:

As homeopathic treatments are generally used in conditions with variable outcome or showing spontaneous recovery (hence their placebo-responsiveness), these treatments are widely considered to have an effect in some patients. However, despite the large number of comparative trials carried out to date there is no evidence that homeopathy is any more effective than placebo therapy given in identical conditions.

In December 1996, a lengthy report was published by the Homoeopathic Medicine Research Group (HMRG), an expert panel convened by the Commission of the European Communities. The HMRG included homeopathic physician-researchers and experts in clinical research, clinical pharmacology, biostatistics, and clinical epidemiology. Its aim was to evaluate published and unpublished reports of controlled trials of homeopathic treatment. After examining 184 reports, the panelists concluded: (1) only 17 were designed and reported well enough to be worth considering; (2) in some of these trials, homeopathic approaches may have exerted a greater effect than a placebo or no treatment; and (3) the number of participants in these 17 trials was too small to draw any conclusions about the effectiveness of homeopathic treatment for any specific condition [5]. Simply put: Most homeopathic research is worthless, and no homeopathic product has been proven effective for any therapeutic purpose. The National Council Against Health Fraud has warned that "the sectarian nature of homeopathy raises serious questions about the trustworthiness of homeopathic researchers." [6]

In 1997, a London health authority decided to stop paying for homeopathic treatment after concluding that there was not enough evidence to support its use. The Lambeth, Southwark, and Lewisham Health Authority had been referring more than 500 patients per year to the Royal Homoeopathic Hospital in London. Public health doctors at the authority reviewed the published scientific literature as part of a general move toward purchasing only evidence-based treatments. The group concluded that many of the studies were methodologically flawed and that recent research produced by the Royal Homoeopathic Hospital contained no convincing evidence that homeopathy offered clinical benefit [7].

Proponents trumpet the few "positive" studies as proof that "homeopathy works." Even if their results can be consistently reproduced (which seems unlikely), the most that the study of a single remedy for a single disease could prove is that the remedy is effective against that disease. It would not validate homeopathy's basic theories or prove that homeopathic treatment is useful for other diseases.

Placebo effects can be powerful, of course, but the potential benefit of relieving symptoms with placebos should be weighed against the harm that can result from relying upon -- and wasting money on -- ineffective products. Spontaneous remission is also a factor in homeopathy's popularity. I believe that most people who credit a homeopathic product for their recovery would have fared equally well without it.

Comments?
 
I didnt read the article (sorry!) but i just wanted to comment that i think homeopathy is'nt such a bad idea with the 'like cures like' and all that.

I know alot of the tissue salts (eg mag phos) can be great to cure some minor ailments like the muscle cramping and spasms. But i think the overall concept of treating the whole person is pretty valid and a good way of thinking.

I'm not too sure whether or not the main benefits result from a placebo effect but hey if it works for that person then whats it matter. I'd much rather take a homeopathic product then a pharmaceutical drug.

Having said that i've not actually taken many homeopathic products myself, aside from a few bach flower remedies (which are great!) but i dont see any problem with them.
 
I agree that you should treat the person. Far too many people these days rely solely on blood tests, though they do have their place.

For instance, many people can have TSH and T3 (thyroid hormones) levels within the proper ranges, and yet still have symptoms of hypothyroidism which resolve when treated appropriately (to bring them to the upper level of the normal range).

Magnesium helps muscle cramps and clenching due to it's effect on nerve firing. The mechanism for that is completely understood. Homeopathy, on the other hand, contradicts hundreds of years of well-established physics and chemistry.

The problem with the "like cures like" concept is that it's wrong. If you research the origins of homeopathy enough it's manifestly clear that the principles thereof are not only wrong, but internally inconsistent. The quote above makes a great point about the "potentiation" step, and how (if the homeopathic principles were right) you're much more likely to get the effects of dinosaur poo remnants in the solution than the intended molecule, because you can practically guarantee there's more dinosaur poo in there than whatever they claim.
 
I think like any other treatment, there will be good doctors and there will be quacks.

Granted, we should trust the most advanced methods of science to expose ineffective methods and ideas, but history has proven that even the most modern knowledge and technology can be completely wrong.

And just like any other source of healing, I wouldn't take it as the end-all, but part of the process. At least Western and Eastern medicine in general are coming closer to merging , because members of both sides are seeing the validity in the other.
 
Just read those articles... wow. It's even more of a scam than I thought it was before!

It's amazing how once you dig under the covers of these areas of "science" that there is so little basis for credibility.

I think like any other treatment, there will be good doctors and there will be quacks.

I guess we are using a very broad definition for "doctor" if it is a Doctor of Homeopathy given the articles above.

I know we all want there to be "magic" and "wonderful" things in the world, but in the end we further our own misery in this world by believing in things like Homeopathy*


*I speak of commercialized Homeopathy as described in these articles. I think there are alot of plant/natural chemicals that would cure many diseases in our world. Before I read these articles I believed Homeopathy to be the science of plant/natural cures of various illnesses as passed down from generation to generation that have not been tested by proper clinical trials. It looks very clear that the industry of Homeopathy has been taken over by quacks and that "grandma's cure for excema" does not have anything to do with Homeopathy anymore.

.
 
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I never really had first hand experience with homeopathy, but my 2c : try it, if it helps use it.
 
lifeisforliving said:
I speak of commercialized Homeopathy as described in these articles. I think there are alot of plant/natural chemicals that would cure many diseases in our world. Before I read these articles I believed Homeopathy to be the science of plant/natural cures of various illnesses as passed down from generation to generation that have not been tested by proper clinical trials. It looks very clear that the industry of Homeopathy has been taken over by quacks and that "grandma's cure for excema" does not have anything to do with Homeopathy anymore.

.

You're thinking of Naturopathy, which is what you described there. Some of the things in it possibly have merit, but many don't. That's the whole point of double-blind studies -- to work out which things do work (e.g. St Johns wort, which DOES work for light to *maybe* moderate depression) and which doesn't (like ecinachea, which has no effect on the duration of colds)
 
da_sense said:
I never really had first hand experience with homeopathy, but my 2c : try it, if it helps use it.

That's the entire point of the article.

Say I get a cold. Say I take antibiotics, and then get better a few days later. I could quite easily proclaim that the antibiotics made me better. But the fact is that they didn't.... The common cold is caused by a viral infection, and antibiotics have absolutely no effect on viruses.

Just because you're sick, take something and then get better doesn't mean that the relationship is CAUSAL. I could have spent $0 and would have got better anyway (in the above example). Proper studies need to be conducted to try and demonstrate whether the relationship is causal.

Moreover, the placebo effect is a very powerful thing. It's well known that, in patients with major depression, about 1/3 will recover completely when given a placebo. Never underestimate the placebo effect.

There's studies on people acting (and feeling!) really drunk when given vodka-flavoured drinks with no alcohol. They had to see a breath analysis before they believed they had nothing to drink.
 
panty said:
And just like any other source of healing, I wouldn't take it as the end-all, but part of the process. At least Western and Eastern medicine in general are coming closer to merging , because members of both sides are seeing the validity in the other.

There is some validity in eastern medicine. Accupuncture, for instance, seems quite effective in some people despite the fact we have no idea how it works. Yet there's studies backing this. Same thing with SOME naturopathic products. But other aspects of alternative medicine are complete bullshit.

The thing that people often forget is that drugs do something to your body. The reason that you get side-effects from pharmaceutical treatments is because the drugs aren't perfect; they treat the illness, but they affect other parts of your body. The more serious the drug, the more serious the side-effects can be. And yet people are quite happy to accept that nature has provided medicinal compounds (e.g. herbs) that completely treat a problem with no side-effects whatsoever. i.e. that nature has ready-made the perfect compound in some plant to treat a human disease. It's entirely possible, but you need to investigate such claims very closely. Most alternative medicine has no side effects because it has no effects at all...
 
Does anyone have an explanation for why this shit is taking over Germany? I've not been living here very long but it seems the pharmaceutical industry is becoming increasingly dominated by homeopathic and "new age" type remedies.

Walk into a pharmacie and ask about meds and they will break out the homeobullshit, at least they did both times I asked advice, once for a cough and once for flu. "Oh, ja, diesen ground up flowers in gelcaps here, diesen best for cough!"

How about some fucking syrup?

Then I went to a doctor, an actual practicioner of medicine. And guess what? She got her homeopathic license last year, after 15 years of convential medicine, and couldn't wait to take me off the psychiatric meds that were prescribed by a team of eminent psychiatrists and put me on some herbal remedies instead!

I don't think it should even be legal for an MD to also be a homeopath who pimps her tinctures to patients seeking honest medical advice. The worst part is that my whole family just loves her and we now have a cabinet full of magic beans that I get harassed to take every time I sneeze.

--- G.
 
In its February 17, 1997, issue, U.S. News & World Report noted that only one duck per year is needed to manufacture the product, which had total sales of $20 million in 1996. The magazine dubbed that unlucky bird "the $20-million duck."

Hehehe. Well if they think it works.. then doesn't it? :)

That's a great marketing scheme. It goes directly to the source of bullshit.
 
Exactly, people will literally pay them money for nothing. I love how this remedy has less than one molecule of the original duck PER EVERY MOLECULE OF KNOWN MATTER IN THE UNIVERSE, lol. That's... not much. In fact, I believe that's very nearly less than nothing.

--- G.
 
homeopathy is far from ineffective. And it is not placebo either. can't be bothered to get into the reasons for this, but I have experienced firsthand how one particular homeopathic product worked wonders on me when another didn't. Didn't work in the way I had hoped, but it had a profound effect that simply cannot have been placebo.

There is far more to matter and energy than what "science" can measure.

Science took yonks to finally see that acupuncture is more than mumbo-jumbo, and they wouldn't acept qi gong as anything but exercise until they were able to measure the "qi".

Homeopathy works very powerfully on bodies that are open to and in tune with energetic resonance.
 
Ximot said:
homeopathy is far from ineffective. And it is not placebo either. can't be bothered to get into the reasons for this, but I have experienced firsthand how one particular homeopathic product worked wonders on me when another didn't.


That sounds exactly like every placebo ever described in history.

Didn't work in the way I had hoped, but it had a profound effect that simply cannot have been placebo.

Placebo doesn't mean you imagined it, it's an actual effect, and it can produce FAR more startling and observable phenomena than simply "feeling better" - which one almost always does eventually anyway.

There is far more to matter and energy than what "science" can measure.

So basically you believe in magic, fair enough, but at least admit homeopathy isn't based on any rational science.

Science took yonks to finally see that acupuncture is more than mumbo-jumbo, and they wouldn't acept qi gong as anything but exercise until they were able to measure the "qi".

They can't actually measure the "qi" as the concept is described in Chinese tradition, what they can measure is something which some people have chosen to equate with it. There is a lot more going on in the body than is currently understood, I will certainly admit that, but to suggest that science has vindicated acupuncture and will eventually prove that taking tiny doses is more effective than taking large ones is totally illogical.

If you believe in magic, or rather the paranormal, that is fine, most people do. But don't put it on the same level as something that is based on rational scientific inquiry - it's plainly obvious that the logic of homepathy is internally contradictory for one thing.

Homeopathy works very powerfully on bodies that are open to and in tune with energetic resonance.

"In tune with energetic resonance" in the way you are using the term means absolutely nothing outside spirituality and religion. It's another word for "feeling the vibe".

--- G.
 
My father has advocated homeopathy since before I was born. I was treated with homeopathic drugs my whole life, and had never been put on a prescription(besides antibiotics.) The fact remains that their benefits are not scientifically proven, but it has always worked on me. Even before I knew what I was taking or what it was for. My dad is not completely against the use of phamacudicals, but believes that they should be used as a last resort. I sent him the articles, and I will post what he has to say.
 
i'll second Ximot on this one.

homeopathic remedies, at least some, are definitely not placebo.

we can all agree that all things "physical" vibrate, and as such leave a vibrational or energetic signature - however, what science has proven relatively recently (1990s), is that even when there is no longer the physical essence, there is still an energetic trace.

those who are quick to doubt are well advised to read Gariaev and Poponin's work on the vacuum DNA phantom effect and its subsequent implications on such things as quantum bioholographics and homeopathics.

Drs Kumar and Kurup in India are doing some fascinating work on energetic medicine and quantal perception models for brain function, looke here

btw, my own perspective is from over 15 years of experience in the medical field, including work with terminal cancer patients, pharmaceuticals design, high energy scanners (MRI, etc) and other less conventional therapeutic and diagnostic modalities.

and frankly, if a patient can be treated on an energetic / vibrational level, i would rather not introduce additional toxicity to the body via other (pharmacological) means.

imnsho, magick is just science we havent yet figured out.
 
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