Thorns Have Roses
Bluelight Crew
Apology: I am on methamphetamine, excuse my obscene wordiness.
Prelude (skip if you'd like): Alright, I mostly just read this subforum, since my only "advanced" knowledge would be the pop-pharmacology (as Jamshyd once put it) that is in vogue on internet drug forums such as this one. Now, even if I don't know much, I'm bothered by the all BDD level and drug-speculation/vendor fuel threads that clutter this forum, and contributed to some of ADD's best talents migrating from the site. So, I've been thinking about creating a couple of threads that should be within the scope of this forum, and hopefully allow y'all to have some fun, intellectual discussion. I'd also appreciate it if you'd be willing to explain clearly to those of us without significant backgrounds in chemistry/pharmacology the principles involved (I'm interested in this stuff to an extent, but am not interested enough to actually read through textbooks and build up my knowledge to gain your level of understanding, and yes I have tried). Please be patient with my ignorance and correct any glaring errors in logic or misused words (a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing, extrapolating without proper understanding leads to dumb ideas I know, but I mean well).
Actual content of my post: Alright, so there's this previous thread on the topic from 2008, but I was thinking maybe there might be more info known now than then. http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-390088.html
It is well known that zolpidem, zopiclone, and zaleplon can cause rather interesting side effects like hallucinations, and I'm hoping you can either tell me or speculate at me the pharmacalogical basis of these hallucinations. I have gained an interest based off of a recent experience with zaleplon, I was expecting a mediocre hypnotic, and ended up experiencing the most intense and vivid hallucinations of my life. It was amazing.
Recounting of experience, if you want to read it:
Now, theories I've read about this activity include the mind being half-asleep, but if these were hypnogogic hallucinations, why do I not experience them on other hypnotics, especially benzos, since the z drugs are agonists at the BZD receptors? The speculation was that it was because the z drugs are much mroe highly selective than benzos at these sites. Another theory is it having to do with GABA-C agonism, which is something I am entirely unfamiliar with.
[Just did some reading] Remembered the exitistence, and oddness of muscimol, and looked that up, and according to wiki this has to do with GABA-A and GABA-C receptor agonism, and that it is qualitatively similar to z hypnotic hallucinations.
So, explanations, speculations, known examples of the class, and everything related to GABA mediated hallucinations should be discussed here, I'd really appreciate it. Do we know enough how/what type of chemical structure produces these effects, or how tweaking it can change them, like you guys seem to do with more conventional drugs? What potential health issues may come with these drugs? Does anyone here have any experience with GABAergic hallucinations? (Crazy thought: Might other receptor complexes of GABA also have such properties? Like say any barbiturates? Or any GABA-B agonists? If BZD receptor Z hypnotics, and plain old GABA receptor targeting musicmol can do it, it seems possible others might as well. Perhaps some would produce a more reliably enjoyable, or less amnesiac experience.)
This seems to me to be an foolishly ignored class of drugs, and perhaps an actual example of society-at-large's idea of hallucinogens, which they innacurately throw at the seritogenic psychedelics. I know I for one have always wanted to be able experience such a thing.
My contribution: from the pharmacological fact sheet that came with the sonata samples (Incidence of treatment-emergent adverse effects in the long term (28 and 35 nights) placebo controlled clinical trials of sonata*), out of 297 people taking 20mg zaleplon, only 1% reported hallucinations as a side effect, and less than 1% reported them at doses of 5mg, and 10mg. So it seems that potentially anyone can experience them, if the dosage is high enough, though I worry that the amnesiac effects of the drug may leave one in delirium at higher doses, if this is the case, perhaps only individuals susceptible to hallucinations at lower doses will be able to really use these recreationally, but hopefully not. Perhaps a written reminder that one is hallucinating could help if so?
Edit: read some anecdotal reports, and a number of people seem to experience significant amnesiac effects from the z hypnotics, enough that they might be considered deliriant in these persons. I'd have to do some more reading about dosages though. In my one experience with A. Muscaria, come to think of it (it was a few years ago and not under the best circumstances), I didn't get any hallucinations but had significant impairment of short term memory. So perhaps at best GABAergic hallucinogens can best be described akin to hypnogogic hallucinations, which you may or may not realize as such depending on circumstance or individual chemistry. Hmm, perhaps there is a way to push the experience towards lucidity via set/setting/other drugs?
* edit:edit: Amnesia was reported at 1% in the 5mg group (344 people), 2% at 10mg (569 people), and 4% at 20mg. Confusion was reported with the same instance as hallucinations (haha, perhaps this related). Anyhow, it seems that it's easier to get amnesia than hallucinations (though I guess those humorous ambien walrus pictures would have told me that, I prefer legit studies...), which may leave these drugs about as deliriant as anticholinergics for many, and thus unsafe for use (maybe these will be less toxic though, and a better option for those individuals who feel they absolutely must experience delirium).
Maybe I should have done all my research before posting this, so I don't ask questions then answer them, I'll do that before my next topic, if this one does well.
Prelude (skip if you'd like): Alright, I mostly just read this subforum, since my only "advanced" knowledge would be the pop-pharmacology (as Jamshyd once put it) that is in vogue on internet drug forums such as this one. Now, even if I don't know much, I'm bothered by the all BDD level and drug-speculation/vendor fuel threads that clutter this forum, and contributed to some of ADD's best talents migrating from the site. So, I've been thinking about creating a couple of threads that should be within the scope of this forum, and hopefully allow y'all to have some fun, intellectual discussion. I'd also appreciate it if you'd be willing to explain clearly to those of us without significant backgrounds in chemistry/pharmacology the principles involved (I'm interested in this stuff to an extent, but am not interested enough to actually read through textbooks and build up my knowledge to gain your level of understanding, and yes I have tried). Please be patient with my ignorance and correct any glaring errors in logic or misused words (a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing, extrapolating without proper understanding leads to dumb ideas I know, but I mean well).
Actual content of my post: Alright, so there's this previous thread on the topic from 2008, but I was thinking maybe there might be more info known now than then. http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-390088.html
It is well known that zolpidem, zopiclone, and zaleplon can cause rather interesting side effects like hallucinations, and I'm hoping you can either tell me or speculate at me the pharmacalogical basis of these hallucinations. I have gained an interest based off of a recent experience with zaleplon, I was expecting a mediocre hypnotic, and ended up experiencing the most intense and vivid hallucinations of my life. It was amazing.
Recounting of experience, if you want to read it:
NSFW:
Now, theories I've read about this activity include the mind being half-asleep, but if these were hypnogogic hallucinations, why do I not experience them on other hypnotics, especially benzos, since the z drugs are agonists at the BZD receptors? The speculation was that it was because the z drugs are much mroe highly selective than benzos at these sites. Another theory is it having to do with GABA-C agonism, which is something I am entirely unfamiliar with.
[Just did some reading] Remembered the exitistence, and oddness of muscimol, and looked that up, and according to wiki this has to do with GABA-A and GABA-C receptor agonism, and that it is qualitatively similar to z hypnotic hallucinations.
So, explanations, speculations, known examples of the class, and everything related to GABA mediated hallucinations should be discussed here, I'd really appreciate it. Do we know enough how/what type of chemical structure produces these effects, or how tweaking it can change them, like you guys seem to do with more conventional drugs? What potential health issues may come with these drugs? Does anyone here have any experience with GABAergic hallucinations? (Crazy thought: Might other receptor complexes of GABA also have such properties? Like say any barbiturates? Or any GABA-B agonists? If BZD receptor Z hypnotics, and plain old GABA receptor targeting musicmol can do it, it seems possible others might as well. Perhaps some would produce a more reliably enjoyable, or less amnesiac experience.)
This seems to me to be an foolishly ignored class of drugs, and perhaps an actual example of society-at-large's idea of hallucinogens, which they innacurately throw at the seritogenic psychedelics. I know I for one have always wanted to be able experience such a thing.
My contribution: from the pharmacological fact sheet that came with the sonata samples (Incidence of treatment-emergent adverse effects in the long term (28 and 35 nights) placebo controlled clinical trials of sonata*), out of 297 people taking 20mg zaleplon, only 1% reported hallucinations as a side effect, and less than 1% reported them at doses of 5mg, and 10mg. So it seems that potentially anyone can experience them, if the dosage is high enough, though I worry that the amnesiac effects of the drug may leave one in delirium at higher doses, if this is the case, perhaps only individuals susceptible to hallucinations at lower doses will be able to really use these recreationally, but hopefully not. Perhaps a written reminder that one is hallucinating could help if so?
Edit: read some anecdotal reports, and a number of people seem to experience significant amnesiac effects from the z hypnotics, enough that they might be considered deliriant in these persons. I'd have to do some more reading about dosages though. In my one experience with A. Muscaria, come to think of it (it was a few years ago and not under the best circumstances), I didn't get any hallucinations but had significant impairment of short term memory. So perhaps at best GABAergic hallucinogens can best be described akin to hypnogogic hallucinations, which you may or may not realize as such depending on circumstance or individual chemistry. Hmm, perhaps there is a way to push the experience towards lucidity via set/setting/other drugs?
* edit:edit: Amnesia was reported at 1% in the 5mg group (344 people), 2% at 10mg (569 people), and 4% at 20mg. Confusion was reported with the same instance as hallucinations (haha, perhaps this related). Anyhow, it seems that it's easier to get amnesia than hallucinations (though I guess those humorous ambien walrus pictures would have told me that, I prefer legit studies...), which may leave these drugs about as deliriant as anticholinergics for many, and thus unsafe for use (maybe these will be less toxic though, and a better option for those individuals who feel they absolutely must experience delirium).
Maybe I should have done all my research before posting this, so I don't ask questions then answer them, I'll do that before my next topic, if this one does well.
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