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Meth You've never had racemic methamphetamine

According to the DEA, it's meth and the best it's ever been, lol.

My pupils stopped dilating from using it years ago. I never run into any newbees so I don't know if their pupils dilate or not but I would love to know.
I've used meth on and off for way longer than I should've (thank you fake adderall and teenaged naivety 😒), but I often take anywhere from 2-6 months off in between uses for all but three years of the last decade where I've been encountering it. I still experience pupilary dilation from it, even street meth that's likely somewhat poorly made, but my boyfriend's first 10-20 encounters with it he has also consistently experienced pupilary dilation. We don't smoke it, only eat/insufflate.
According to the DEA they need more tax dollars to fight this super meth (they’ll actually make drug use more rampant and worse on purpose and secretly assist the cartel so that they can point to the problem and say “see how bad it is” give us more money so we can fix it)

Hmm so your pupils stop dilating after using for a long while even though the gear is good?

Interesting to know.
I suspect that the same thing that happened with "Why isn't MDMA as good as it used to be" people is happening with ice, aka tolerance build-up and variations over one's life in their neurochemistry are leading to a drug landing differently, but they don't understand that so they begin to get all conspiratorial and say shit like "plandemic". The DEA is profoundly untrustworthy, but independent testing laboratories like drugsdata have verified that essentially all amphetamines are of overwhemingly high purity in the last 5 or so years. MDA, MDMA, methamphetamine, the only place I see it getting fucked up is that a ton of things sold as amphetamine are actually containing methamphetamine since it's cheaper and stronger, but I think that by now everybody's well aware that pressed Addys are meth tablets.
 
I think that by now everybody's well aware that pressed Addys are meth tablets.


I love that. Pressed Addie’s are meth tablets. Like the mainstream supply going to a bunch of college kids studying or partying is now meth instead of adderall.

The DEA could’ve let it be and just let them have their adderall fun.

Nope; had to crack down and now all the kids are consuming methamp that will probably be laced with fentanyl at some point.

It’s another perfect example of the failure of prohibition and how prohibition always results in people using more addictive and harder drugs more often. How prohibition always makes the problem worse.

It’s a good example but it won’t be reported on and most will never put 2 and 2 together so it’s frustrating in that sense.

It does seem like the US at least has moved on from caring about drugs. Oh your 22 year died of fentanyl in their cocaine? Nobody gives a shit anymore. Oh your whole neighborhood is infested by fent zombies walking like ancient Egyptians on dxm? Nobody cares anymore.

America seems to have come into its own and really accepted increased and easily preventable drug misery….kinda like how we don’t give a shit about school mass shootings anymore.

I don’t know if it’s a good thing or bad (the not caring about drugs anymore). The public has to at least realize that it’s totally futile and the drug war a fucking joke by now; maybe that’s why it isn’t in the media anymore. It’s just such an embarrassing L.
 
I love that. Pressed Addie’s are meth tablets. Like the mainstream supply going to a bunch of college kids studying or partying is now meth instead of adderall.

The DEA could’ve let it be and just let them have their adderall fun.

Nope; had to crack down and now all the kids are consuming methamp that will probably be laced with fentanyl at some point.

It’s another perfect example of the failure of prohibition and how prohibition always results in people using more addictive and harder drugs more often. How prohibition always makes the problem worse.

It’s a good example but it won’t be reported on and most will never put 2 and 2 together so it’s frustrating in that sense.

It does seem like the US at least has moved on from caring about drugs. Oh your 22 year died of fentanyl in their cocaine? Nobody gives a shit anymore. Oh your whole neighborhood is infested by fent zombies walking like ancient Egyptians on dxm? Nobody cares anymore.

America seems to have come into its own and really accepted increased and easily preventable drug misery….kinda like how we don’t give a shit about school mass shootings anymore.

I don’t know if it’s a good thing or bad (the not caring about drugs anymore). The public has to at least realize that it’s totally futile and the drug war a fucking joke by now; maybe that’s why it isn’t in the media anymore. It’s just such an embarrassing L.
I can definitely vouch that I've never even so much as heard of fent ending up in amphetamines, from public testing databases nor personal testing of countless batches of weird street amps. Prohibition definitely fucked these up, I used to just think that some amphetamine lasted 12-18 hours, occasionally I'd refer to them as "giga-Addies" as opposed to "normal Addies". Americans just need to use more reagent tests imo.
 
There is still a pretty huge amphetamine market in Europe and to the best of my knowledge, it's raecemic.

Now even in Europe, meth is now apparently being resolved, but not the plain amphetamine. I suggest the reason is one of simple economics - whizz is very cheap indeed.

In context 1 gram of methamphetamine is £50 whereas a gram of decent speed is £10.

In the UK at least, methamphetamine is a class A controlled drug. Amphetamine is class B. I didn't know why until I tried meth. Totally different. Much more potent. I won't say 'euphoric' because I hated it. But, evidently, some people like it.
 
Greetings folks. Like others in the meth community; methodists if you will... I've heard many a tale of a bright young tweaker scoring that fresh bag only to take a hit and be plagued with nasty side effects and no pleasurable euphoria. The dreaded racemic batch; a 50/50 mixture of the dextrorotary and levorotary methamphetamine isomers often abbreviated simply d-meth and l-meth (sometimes R-meth and S-)meth.

As many are aware the d-meth isomer is said to be responsible for the desired recreational effects, whereas the l-isomer is reportedly at best entirely inert causing no effect and at worst exacerbating the unpleasant peripheral nervous system side effects to a point where any euphoria or motivation is shrouded in unpleasantness. At a glance this makes sense, the dextro isomer has a massive affinity for dopamine neurotransmitter release often called the pleasure chemical or the reward chemical, whereas the levo isomer has nearly no dopamine affinity but rather a massive and lengthy surge of adrenaline via norepinephrine release. I mean, up until quite recently levomethamphetamine was the active ingredient in Vicks brand over the counter congestion inhalers. The DEA wouldn't let any old 12 year old walk into CVS and buy a stick of meth right? (Laughs nervously while chewing on a Benzedrix cotton)

I'm here to tell you all that the chances of accidentally scoring a bag of racemic methamphetamine on the street is near enough to absurd that most meth users have never had it happen; and if they did have it happen it would but quite obvious.

So how would this happen anyways? I'm going to skip the lesson on stereochemistry and isomers as I assume the Bluelight audience is familiar enough with the concept to understand this material. Why would anyone even synthesize racemic meth if it's possible to simply make pure dextromethamphetamine. It starts with the precursors, essentially the starting point when making methamphetamine. A precursor is simply the chemical that a chemist intents to transform into the desired product using other chemicals called reagents or reactants. Think of it like a square that a sculptor will chisel away into a triangle. You would start with a circle as that would be more difficult; so you pick a shape that is already somewhat close to the one you want.

In the case of methamphetamine, the known precursors chemists use are two alkaloids that are naturally present within certain species Ephedra bush called ephedrine and pseudoephedrine (I will use PSE to refer to both of these chemicals as in this write up they are essentially interchangeable) which have existed since the dawn of time, and a metabolite of methamphetamine discovered in the mid 20th century called 1-phenyl-2-propanone(P2P/phenylacetone) in the USA and is also called benzyl-methyl-ketone(BMK) in Europe. All three chemicals are closely monitored and or illegal/difficult for a consumer to aquire in meaningful quanitites pretty much globally. Thus, a common way to source these chemicals is to purchase legal and unmonitored essential chemicals and create PSE or P2P from scratch.

PSE are chiral molecules just like methamphetamine, and interestingly only one of the two isomers actually exists naturally. The other is never produced by nature and didn't exist until it was made artificially. As it happens; the natural isomers reduce in chemical reaction into simply d-meth, it is not possible to yield any l-meth from a PSE reduction therefore any meth made using PSE as a starting material can only be the pure desired recreational version of meth.

P2P on the other hand is not chiral, it has no d and l isomer, and because of that it is randomly divided into d-meth and l-meth during the reaction process. This statistically gives you a racemic product; or an even half and half isomer content. It's somewhat puzzling why someone would then use P2P as a pecursor... ever. Even pharmaceutical compositions of meth for theraputic medical purposes requires the d isomer for best results, so there's really no meaningful reason to produce l-meth... it's not THAT good of a decongestant.

The reason pharmaceutical companies and clandestine Willy Wonkas like P2P over PSE come down to cost and efficiency; as it stands in 2024 P2P is much easier to make from legal chemicals than PSE, the reaction is consistently high yielding and pure regardless of your skill at chemistry, and most of all the most popular route from P2P to meth is the easiest one to scale up to a manufacturing level that can produce massive quantities of meth very quickly. All the major routes of reducing PSE either are impossible to scale up, or logistically far too risky either due to the destructive and dangerous chemicals that can't be handled in bulk, or the near impossibility of perform large reductions discreetly due to smells, sounds, or the size of facility required.

PSE is a good material to use as a precursor for an amateur "cook" in the garage making a few grams a month, but not for Cartels gangs, and the CIA to make in a large lab. Even in the popular fiction Breaking Bad; the process Walt uses in the superlab under the laundromat is a P2P reaction. Despite many inaccuracies or improbabilities in the show they do get this right.

In fact it is true that the Sinaloa Cartel in Mexico which sources almost all street meth for the United States alternates between a handful of reactions to make meth from P2P. "So hold on Dan!" You say while inserting a fat shard into your asshole with your Cheetah covered nubbins "then almost all the meth in the lower 48 is racemic!" No, you beautiful sweet stupid bastard. And I'll explain why.

Reductive Amination

The two most popular routes to make meth out of P2P are called Leuckhart and reductive amination. Leuckhart fell out of style, and generally you would choose reductive amination as your synthesis route because it's easy to get a high yield, relatively danger free, and the materials involved are painlessly easy to aquire for a consumer. This method was the one Walter White used to make his blue meth.

The process simply boils all the reagents together in one "pot", and the methamphetamine condenses from steam as the ketone and amine (P2P and methylamine typically) trade atoms. None of the chemicals are at a big risk of explosion or emitting deadly fumes, and as long as you can set a temperature on a burner, you really can't "overcook" or "undercook" the product by getting your measurements wrong or not watching the time. On paper the reaction looks much more complex and dorky than some of the popular PSE reductions, but anybody even moderately dedicated enough to purchase proper glassware and make the starting materials can pull it off anywhere with a heat source. In fact: THIS METHOD IS VERY POPULAR WITH INDIVIDUALLY OPERATING "COOKS". It isn't just the cartel who likes reductive amination.

But the product only contains 50% of the desired chemical still. And when competing with Billy Bob living in a Unibomber shed in the woods shaking up soda bottle bombs of PSE, you need a more powerful product than that.

Luckily since man began cooking up fat shards in the basement, optical resolution has existed. Yes, it's simple and cheap for anyone be it the cartel or grandma, to remove L-meth from a racemic product and be left only with d-meth. "WHAT?" You scream, both from the sweet sharp burn of your tight butthole flesh dissolving a point fiver of dirty crystal and in shock "but I thought it was like a super complicated procedure and a tight lipped secret?" No. Actually a liquid chemical called L-taurtaric acid is able to be simply poured over your racemic meth, and it dissolves and washed away only the L-meth and leaves behind only the D-meth.

But you do need to have high ranking laboratory and academic credentials to purchase L-taurtaric acid. Just kidding it's used in wine making and you can buy in cheaply online or in any high end liquor store anywhere. This procedure has been used forever, there's even an Erwoid article describing it from like the 1990s. Yes, you do waste half of the product you made but because of how cheap, easy, and consistently high yielding reductive amination is YOU LIKELY STILL WILL HAVE MORE, CLEANER, AND HIGHER QUALITY PRODUCT MADE IN A SHORTER SPAN OF TIME THAN PSE, EVEN WHEN THROWING HALF OUT.

I could go on about how there are various ways to convert the "wasted" l-meth back into a racemate and then do the process over and over again until you have all d-meth and waste 0 L-meth but that process is actually a bit more complex and expensive unless you're the cartel and can make meth by the tons. Oh but wait, there's a dumb as rocks easy method to convert L-meth into P2P and you can just use it again to make more meth so basically there's no reason you'd even be wasting anything at all.

In fact, for any chemist serious about making methamphetamine for the black market there's basically no reason at all to even consider using PSE. Reductive amination, resolving the product, and recycling the l-meth back into P2P is a money printing factory.

While meth makers and users are famously stereotyped for their honesty, virtues, and high standards of customer service, we have to assume there's at least one or two bad apples out there. What if a chemist makes meth from P2P and simply leaves the product racemic to save time and money, essentially selling a product that's pre-cut with L-meth and low quality in order to get more cash? Sounds unlike the peace loving and good hearted nature of stimulant users and dealers but suspend your disbelief and entertain this possibility for a minute.

There's no evidence what so ever that racemic meth is less potent in it's desirable high than D-meth, and there's no evidence whatsoever that it produces greater negative side effects than d-meth.

There is actually evidence though that racemic meths melting point is absurdly lower than the melting point of d-meth, and that forming shard like crystals from a racemate is insanely difficult and only a fine grained powder is achievable realistically.


The Truth about the Isomers


Without getting into insane detail here, most of the common street knowledge on meths isomers is entirely wrong. It's easy to understand why as I described early in the essay why at first glance one would think a racemate is only 50% as pleasurable as pure d-meth at best, shit I never even gave it much thought to research when writing my book initially. It was only after I tried a racemic product and a pure product back to back that I noticed "huh. These feel literally exactly the same."

There are a handful of animal studies that support the notion that racemic meth is weaker or unpleasant. But animal studies quite often don't reflect human reactions. There is only one single study I've found after days and days of researching this question that puts the effects of d-meth pure, l-meth pure, and racemic meth to comparison in humans. And this is what it found:

L-meth administered alone produced a pleasant high that was very short lived, followed by a long period of peripheral stimulation. The total effects of l-meth lasted the longest amount of time. WHEN HEART RATE AND BLOOD PRESSURE WERE MEASURED L-METH RESULTED IN THE SMALLEST CHANGE OF ALL THREE. IT HAD THE LEAST NEGATIVE PERIPHERAL NERVOUS SYSTEM IMPACT.

Racemic meth and d-meth were reported by subjects to feel EXACTLY THE SAME. The pleasurable effects, residual effects, peripheral effects and duration all were THE SAME. Blood pressure and heart rate readings were IDENTICAL TO D-METH. Essentially someone given a racemic product would be getting the exact same results as a pure d-meth product.

So d-meth alone had the worst side effects, the heaviest body load, and the shortest duration of effects. But if it's so heavy on dopamine, why?

It's pretty much exactly as potent at releasing norepinephrine as l-meth for one. It's not a simple matter of "d-meth is all dopamine no adrenaline, and l-meth is all adrenaline no dopamine". Beyond that, dopamine isn't as simple as people tend to treat it, and PLEASURE IS NOT CAUSED BY DOPAMINE. In fact ADRENALINE is more likely to induce euphoria than dopamine, and is responsible for the rush meth users tend to chase.

At high recreational doses, it doesn't matter whether it's d-meth or racemic YOU'RE MAXING OUT YOUR DOPAMINE AND ADRENALINE EITHER WAY. If a one product has the potential to release 200% of dopamine, and another only has the potential to release 125% of dopamine then YOU STILL ARE HAVING 100% OF YOUR DOPAMINE RELEASED. THE EXTRA POTENTIALL 100% OR 25% IS MEANINGLESS.


Besides, a smoker would notice immediately if their product was racemic as it would be sold as a fine powder only which is rather uncommon most places, and the melting point of racemic meth is 130 degrees rather than 175 degrees which any seasoned smoker would instantly notice. That's a MASSIVE difference



So then. Why does the meth from some bags make you feel like shit and some doesn't? Well, it's because your dealer put doo doo and piss and cum into it because it's a street drug. From the street. So it's dirty and yucky you spoon. Also meth makes you feel like shit.


Thank you for your time
P2P meth is extremely detrimental to your health and there are articles about it from hospitals and addiction clinics. It doesn't matter if it's L or D. Replacing ephedrine, meth is now produced with chemicals like:

Acetone
Cyanide
Lye
Mercury
Sulfuric acid
Hydrochloric acid
Nitrostyerence
Racing fuel

This version of meth utilizes phenyl-2-propanone, or P2P, which is commonly used for several legal industrial applications, instead of ephedrine, a plant-derived compound used as a decongestant and stimulant. Also known as phenylacetone, this compound has long been used to create nasal decongestants like Benzedrex (propylhexedrine) and to create cleaning agents and stain removers.

The chemical makeup of any methamphetamine includes two separate isomerism (variants) of the main chemical compound: d-methamphetamine and l-methamphetamine. The d-meth causes euphoric psychoactive effects, while the l-meth typically increases heart rate but does little to provide a high.

Whereas previous versions of meth produced feelings of euphoria, alertness and elevated mood, P2P seems to drive users toward isolation and neurological descent—paranoia, psychosis, delusions, hallucinations—while precipitating more rapid physical deterioration.

Precursor chemicals like P2P are the main ingredient in synthetic drug processes. Making matters worse are binding agents like MSM or N-iso. Side effects of N-iso include sleepiness. lethargy, gastro intestinal problems, trouble urinating, irregular and strange bowel movements, headaches , nausea, dry skin, vasoconstriction, numbness, edema(swelling) heart problems and a whole mess of other ones including the risk of liver failure, even after relatively brief periods of substance use. Binders can give the meth a really harsh taste and can cover your teeth in a film that will immediately start melting the enamel off your teeth.

The formation of dark brown watery liquid with a high melting point that takes a minute or more to solidify is a good indicator the meth is heavily cut. P2P meth doesn't crack back like older formulations of meth. Instead of solidifying as soon as the heat source is removed and being mostly clear and shard-like it takes a very long time to solidify, turns brownish in color rather fast, and looks more like salt than crystal. White residue on the pipe has been attributed to MSM.

Previously, people who used meth were often able to hold down jobs, pay their bills, maintain a family and conduct their lives more or less without disruption. The toll of the ephedrine-based drug, by all accounts, wasn’t as great or swift as that of P2P. The psychological effects—what some have described, plainly, as “madness”—weren’t at the level of this new version. And because of P2P’s increased purity and accessibility, combined with its paltry cost, there seems to be no easy answer to untangling its harms.

P2P meth is increasingly being tied to growing homelessness, as well as rising harms within homeless communities, from giant tent cities in Los Angeles to teeming pods of people without shelter in Boston. And many experts claim that P2P is more difficult to treat because, in addition to there being no medication-assisted treatment (MAT) for meth, patients often aren’t stable enough for weeks (and even months) to accept help.
 
P2P meth is extremely detrimental to your health and there are articles about it from hospitals and addiction clinics. It doesn't matter if it's L or D. Replacing ephedrine, meth is now produced with chemicals like:

Acetone
Cyanide
Lye
Mercury
Sulfuric acid
Hydrochloric acid
Nitrostyerence
Racing fuel

This version of meth utilizes phenyl-2-propanone, or P2P, which is commonly used for several legal industrial applications, instead of ephedrine, a plant-derived compound used as a decongestant and stimulant. Also known as phenylacetone, this compound has long been used to create nasal decongestants like Benzedrex (propylhexedrine) and to create cleaning agents and stain removers.

The chemical makeup of any methamphetamine includes two separate isomerism (variants) of the main chemical compound: d-methamphetamine and l-methamphetamine. The d-meth causes euphoric psychoactive effects, while the l-meth typically increases heart rate but does little to provide a high.

Whereas previous versions of meth produced feelings of euphoria, alertness and elevated mood, P2P seems to drive users toward isolation and neurological descent—paranoia, psychosis, delusions, hallucinations—while precipitating more rapid physical deterioration.

Precursor chemicals like P2P are the main ingredient in synthetic drug processes. Making matters worse are binding agents like MSM or N-iso. Side effects of N-iso include sleepiness. lethargy, gastro intestinal problems, trouble urinating, irregular and strange bowel movements, headaches , nausea, dry skin, vasoconstriction, numbness, edema(swelling) heart problems and a whole mess of other ones including the risk of liver failure, even after relatively brief periods of substance use. Binders can give the meth a really harsh taste and can cover your teeth in a film that will immediately start melting the enamel off your teeth.

The formation of dark brown watery liquid with a high melting point that takes a minute or more to solidify is a good indicator the meth is heavily cut. P2P meth doesn't crack back like older formulations of meth. Instead of solidifying as soon as the heat source is removed and being mostly clear and shard-like it takes a very long time to solidify, turns brownish in color rather fast, and looks more like salt than crystal. White residue on the pipe has been attributed to MSM.

Previously, people who used meth were often able to hold down jobs, pay their bills, maintain a family and conduct their lives more or less without disruption. The toll of the ephedrine-based drug, by all accounts, wasn’t as great or swift as that of P2P. The psychological effects—what some have described, plainly, as “madness”—weren’t at the level of this new version. And because of P2P’s increased purity and accessibility, combined with its paltry cost, there seems to be no easy answer to untangling its harms.

P2P meth is increasingly being tied to growing homelessness, as well as rising harms within homeless communities, from giant tent cities in Los Angeles to teeming pods of people without shelter in Boston. And many experts claim that P2P is more difficult to treat because, in addition to there being no medication-assisted treatment (MAT) for meth, patients often aren’t stable enough for weeks (and even months) to accept help.
This just sounds like an AI summary of that article from The Atlantic

Meth is meth. The information is out there on the product coming into the country; but if folks want to stop using meth because they're concerned about P2P more power too them. Not a good drug
 
Haha @Methamphetanonymous I value your honesty. Your handle is the perfect combination of irony and stupidity. I love it.

I'm sure a lot of us have read material describing "New Meth". For those who don't know, there are a lot of people with knowledge and experience regarding Methamphetamine that describe the Methamphetamine wave that started ~7 years ago as more destructive than the drug was previously known to be.

There are Methamphetamine users who claim they have used the drug for decades. They claim that the Methamphetamine out on the street right now makes people go crazy faster. They claim that the Meth used to be "better" mainly in it being less harmful to the physical and mental health of the user.

There is a lot of conjecture.
 
Haha @Methamphetanonymous I value your honesty. Your handle is the perfect combination of irony and stupidity. I love it.
I really didn't intend it to take on such an ironic meaning, but the amusing way it's played out hasn't been lost on me either lol

I'm sure a lot of us have read material describing "New Meth". For those who don't know, there are a lot of people with knowledge and experience regarding Methamphetamine that describe the Methamphetamine wave that started ~7 years ago as more destructive than the drug was previously known to be.

There are Methamphetamine users who claim they have used the drug for decades. They claim that the Methamphetamine out on the street right now makes people go crazy faster. They claim that the Meth used to be "better" mainly in it being less harmful to the physical and mental health of the user.

There is a lot of conjecture.
The start of the issue I have with these claims is that they're rarely consistent. The issues you describe are lock step with Sam Quionnes and his lazy article written for the Atlantic titled 'the new meth', where Sam makes a lot of assertions about P2P (including that it is a new precursor... Which is just blatantly false) based mainly on the tales of a homeless meth addict he interviews on Skid Row. Most of his supporting evidence can be explained very easily with the reality that meth is more abundant, cheaper, and widely abused than ever before. Hacker I believe wrote a decent rebuttal.

However Sam's claims aren't exactly consistent with the community. N-isopropylbenzylamine has transformed throughout its history as a benign filler cut, to a tranquilizing 'sleepy' active cutting agent and finally a stimulant which induces negative effects which all conveniently are known to also be associated with amphetamine abuse. The reactions that users attribute to this 'widrspread' 'new' meth coming from 'Mexico' have never been consistent, nor have they even consistently identified a United problem. Is it that P2P somehow makes more toxic meth? (Hard to believe as d-meth is exceptionally toxic alone) Is it that the cartel doesn't perform a resolution of the enantiomers, and racemic meth is to blame? Is in MSM? Fentany? N-isopropylbenzylamine? Ask a random person on a random day and you'll hear a mix and match of answers and explanations, never with evidence...

I'm not prepared to dismiss that a significant portion of the community is having a good faith negative or underwhelming reaction to meth produced since 2017ish(the year meth changed also gets changed a lot) and that it's worthy of discussion, theorizing, and investigation. My issue is that there's simply assertion of myths as fact, and no one ever bothers with actually investigating and finding a real answer if not for harm reduction but for intellectual curiosity.

There is however plenty of evidence and plenty of plausible explanations for the issues happening that suggests meth is more pure and more potent than ever before; but is simply being used in new ways like massive mega dosing since a gram is a fraction of the cost it was in the 1990s-2000s; and that new inexperienced users are at a number never seen in the US before... So of course there's moee hoslitalizations and incidents of psychosis. There's simply way more users using way more drug than ever before.


If there is alternative evidence that can fill in all the gaps as well as that explanation, I'll be 100% on board. It's not about being right, it's about transparent and accurate information being provided to users. It's just that these N-isopropylbenzylamine claims date back over a decade, not just seven years. And yet here we are, still empty handed. As we are with all the other 'meth is meaningfully and significantly different now' hypothesis and theories.

So I just can't pretend to take the same old tired claims seriously when they always are backed by an anonymous forum member or Redditor's assertion that they were around and using meth in the 90s/00s, and 'trust me bro'. I don't trust it, tbh.
 
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Greetings folks. Like others in the meth community; methodists if you will... I've heard many a tale of a bright young tweaker scoring that fresh bag only to take a hit and be plagued with nasty side effects and no pleasurable euphoria. The dreaded racemic batch; a 50/50 mixture of the dextrorotary and levorotary methamphetamine isomers often abbreviated simply d-meth and l-meth (sometimes R-meth and S-)meth.

As many are aware the d-meth isomer is said to be responsible for the desired recreational effects, whereas the l-isomer is reportedly at best entirely inert causing no effect and at worst exacerbating the unpleasant peripheral nervous system side effects to a point where any euphoria or motivation is shrouded in unpleasantness. At a glance this makes sense, the dextro isomer has a massive affinity for dopamine neurotransmitter release often called the pleasure chemical or the reward chemical, whereas the levo isomer has nearly no dopamine affinity but rather a massive and lengthy surge of adrenaline via norepinephrine release. I mean, up until quite recently levomethamphetamine was the active ingredient in Vicks brand over the counter congestion inhalers. The DEA wouldn't let any old 12 year old walk into CVS and buy a stick of meth right? (Laughs nervously while chewing on a Benzedrix cotton)

I'm here to tell you all that the chances of accidentally scoring a bag of racemic methamphetamine on the street is near enough to absurd that most meth users have never had it happen; and if they did have it happen it would but quite obvious.

So how would this happen anyways? I'm going to skip the lesson on stereochemistry and isomers as I assume the Bluelight audience is familiar enough with the concept to understand this material. Why would anyone even synthesize racemic meth if it's possible to simply make pure dextromethamphetamine. It starts with the precursors, essentially the starting point when making methamphetamine. A precursor is simply the chemical that a chemist intents to transform into the desired product using other chemicals called reagents or reactants. Think of it like a square that a sculptor will chisel away into a triangle. You would start with a circle as that would be more difficult; so you pick a shape that is already somewhat close to the one you want.

In the case of methamphetamine, the known precursors chemists use are two alkaloids that are naturally present within certain species Ephedra bush called ephedrine and pseudoephedrine (I will use PSE to refer to both of these chemicals as in this write up they are essentially interchangeable) which have existed since the dawn of time, and a metabolite of methamphetamine discovered in the mid 20th century called 1-phenyl-2-propanone(P2P/phenylacetone) in the USA and is also called benzyl-methyl-ketone(BMK) in Europe. All three chemicals are closely monitored and or illegal/difficult for a consumer to aquire in meaningful quanitites pretty much globally. Thus, a common way to source these chemicals is to purchase legal and unmonitored essential chemicals and create PSE or P2P from scratch.

PSE are chiral molecules just like methamphetamine, and interestingly only one of the two isomers actually exists naturally. The other is never produced by nature and didn't exist until it was made artificially. As it happens; the natural isomers reduce in chemical reaction into simply d-meth, it is not possible to yield any l-meth from a PSE reduction therefore any meth made using PSE as a starting material can only be the pure desired recreational version of meth.

P2P on the other hand is not chiral, it has no d and l isomer, and because of that it is randomly divided into d-meth and l-meth during the reaction process. This statistically gives you a racemic product; or an even half and half isomer content. It's somewhat puzzling why someone would then use P2P as a pecursor... ever. Even pharmaceutical compositions of meth for theraputic medical purposes requires the d isomer for best results, so there's really no meaningful reason to produce l-meth... it's not THAT good of a decongestant.

The reason pharmaceutical companies and clandestine Willy Wonkas like P2P over PSE come down to cost and efficiency; as it stands in 2024 P2P is much easier to make from legal chemicals than PSE, the reaction is consistently high yielding and pure regardless of your skill at chemistry, and most of all the most popular route from P2P to meth is the easiest one to scale up to a manufacturing level that can produce massive quantities of meth very quickly. All the major routes of reducing PSE either are impossible to scale up, or logistically far too risky either due to the destructive and dangerous chemicals that can't be handled in bulk, or the near impossibility of perform large reductions discreetly due to smells, sounds, or the size of facility required.

PSE is a good material to use as a precursor for an amateur "cook" in the garage making a few grams a month, but not for Cartels gangs, and the CIA to make in a large lab. Even in the popular fiction Breaking Bad; the process Walt uses in the superlab under the laundromat is a P2P reaction. Despite many inaccuracies or improbabilities in the show they do get this right.

In fact it is true that the Sinaloa Cartel in Mexico which sources almost all street meth for the United States alternates between a handful of reactions to make meth from P2P. "So hold on Dan!" You say while inserting a fat shard into your asshole with your Cheetah covered nubbins "then almost all the meth in the lower 48 is racemic!" No, you beautiful sweet stupid bastard. And I'll explain why.

Reductive Amination

The two most popular routes to make meth out of P2P are called Leuckhart and reductive amination. Leuckhart fell out of style, and generally you would choose reductive amination as your synthesis route because it's easy to get a high yield, relatively danger free, and the materials involved are painlessly easy to aquire for a consumer. This method was the one Walter White used to make his blue meth.

The process simply boils all the reagents together in one "pot", and the methamphetamine condenses from steam as the ketone and amine (P2P and methylamine typically) trade atoms. None of the chemicals are at a big risk of explosion or emitting deadly fumes, and as long as you can set a temperature on a burner, you really can't "overcook" or "undercook" the product by getting your measurements wrong or not watching the time. On paper the reaction looks much more complex and dorky than some of the popular PSE reductions, but anybody even moderately dedicated enough to purchase proper glassware and make the starting materials can pull it off anywhere with a heat source. In fact: THIS METHOD IS VERY POPULAR WITH INDIVIDUALLY OPERATING "COOKS". It isn't just the cartel who likes reductive amination.

But the product only contains 50% of the desired chemical still. And when competing with Billy Bob living in a Unibomber shed in the woods shaking up soda bottle bombs of PSE, you need a more powerful product than that.

Luckily since man began cooking up fat shards in the basement, optical resolution has existed. Yes, it's simple and cheap for anyone be it the cartel or grandma, to remove L-meth from a racemic product and be left only with d-meth. "WHAT?" You scream, both from the sweet sharp burn of your tight butthole flesh dissolving a point fiver of dirty crystal and in shock "but I thought it was like a super complicated procedure and a tight lipped secret?" No. Actually a liquid chemical called L-taurtaric acid is able to be simply poured over your racemic meth, and it dissolves and washed away only the L-meth and leaves behind only the D-meth.

But you do need to have high ranking laboratory and academic credentials to purchase L-taurtaric acid. Just kidding it's used in wine making and you can buy in cheaply online or in any high end liquor store anywhere. This procedure has been used forever, there's even an Erwoid article describing it from like the 1990s. Yes, you do waste half of the product you made but because of how cheap, easy, and consistently high yielding reductive amination is YOU LIKELY STILL WILL HAVE MORE, CLEANER, AND HIGHER QUALITY PRODUCT MADE IN A SHORTER SPAN OF TIME THAN PSE, EVEN WHEN THROWING HALF OUT.

I could go on about how there are various ways to convert the "wasted" l-meth back into a racemate and then do the process over and over again until you have all d-meth and waste 0 L-meth but that process is actually a bit more complex and expensive unless you're the cartel and can make meth by the tons. Oh but wait, there's a dumb as rocks easy method to convert L-meth into P2P and you can just use it again to make more meth so basically there's no reason you'd even be wasting anything at all.

In fact, for any chemist serious about making methamphetamine for the black market there's basically no reason at all to even consider using PSE. Reductive amination, resolving the product, and recycling the l-meth back into P2P is a money printing factory.

While meth makers and users are famously stereotyped for their honesty, virtues, and high standards of customer service, we have to assume there's at least one or two bad apples out there. What if a chemist makes meth from P2P and simply leaves the product racemic to save time and money, essentially selling a product that's pre-cut with L-meth and low quality in order to get more cash? Sounds unlike the peace loving and good hearted nature of stimulant users and dealers but suspend your disbelief and entertain this possibility for a minute.

There's no evidence what so ever that racemic meth is less potent in it's desirable high than D-meth, and there's no evidence whatsoever that it produces greater negative side effects than d-meth.

There is actually evidence though that racemic meths melting point is absurdly lower than the melting point of d-meth, and that forming shard like crystals from a racemate is insanely difficult and only a fine grained powder is achievable realistically.


The Truth about the Isomers


Without getting into insane detail here, most of the common street knowledge on meths isomers is entirely wrong. It's easy to understand why as I described early in the essay why at first glance one would think a racemate is only 50% as pleasurable as pure d-meth at best, shit I never even gave it much thought to research when writing my book initially. It was only after I tried a racemic product and a pure product back to back that I noticed "huh. These feel literally exactly the same."

There are a handful of animal studies that support the notion that racemic meth is weaker or unpleasant. But animal studies quite often don't reflect human reactions. There is only one single study I've found after days and days of researching this question that puts the effects of d-meth pure, l-meth pure, and racemic meth to comparison in humans. And this is what it found:

L-meth administered alone produced a pleasant high that was very short lived, followed by a long period of peripheral stimulation. The total effects of l-meth lasted the longest amount of time. WHEN HEART RATE AND BLOOD PRESSURE WERE MEASURED L-METH RESULTED IN THE SMALLEST CHANGE OF ALL THREE. IT HAD THE LEAST NEGATIVE PERIPHERAL NERVOUS SYSTEM IMPACT.

Racemic meth and d-meth were reported by subjects to feel EXACTLY THE SAME. The pleasurable effects, residual effects, peripheral effects and duration all were THE SAME. Blood pressure and heart rate readings were IDENTICAL TO D-METH. Essentially someone given a racemic product would be getting the exact same results as a pure d-meth product.

So d-meth alone had the worst side effects, the heaviest body load, and the shortest duration of effects. But if it's so heavy on dopamine, why?

It's pretty much exactly as potent at releasing norepinephrine as l-meth for one. It's not a simple matter of "d-meth is all dopamine no adrenaline, and l-meth is all adrenaline no dopamine". Beyond that, dopamine isn't as simple as people tend to treat it, and PLEASURE IS NOT CAUSED BY DOPAMINE. In fact ADRENALINE is more likely to induce euphoria than dopamine, and is responsible for the rush meth users tend to chase.

At high recreational doses, it doesn't matter whether it's d-meth or racemic YOU'RE MAXING OUT YOUR DOPAMINE AND ADRENALINE EITHER WAY. If a one product has the potential to release 200% of dopamine, and another only has the potential to release 125% of dopamine then YOU STILL ARE HAVING 100% OF YOUR DOPAMINE RELEASED. THE EXTRA POTENTIALL 100% OR 25% IS MEANINGLESS.


Besides, a smoker would notice immediately if their product was racemic as it would be sold as a fine powder only which is rather uncommon most places, and the melting point of racemic meth is 130 degrees rather than 175 degrees which any seasoned smoker would instantly notice. That's a MASSIVE difference



So then. Why does the meth from some bags make you feel like shit and some doesn't? Well, it's because your dealer put doo doo and piss and cum into it because it's a street drug. From the street. So it's dirty and yucky you spoon. Also meth makes you feel like shit.


Thank you for your time
Greetings folks. Like others in the meth community; methodists if you will... I've heard many a tale of a bright young tweaker scoring that fresh bag only to take a hit and be plagued with nasty side effects and no pleasurable euphoria. The dreaded racemic batch; a 50/50 mixture of the dextrorotary and levorotary methamphetamine isomers often abbreviated simply d-meth and l-meth (sometimes R-meth and S-)meth.

As many are aware the d-meth isomer is said to be responsible for the desired recreational effects, whereas the l-isomer is reportedly at best entirely inert causing no effect and at worst exacerbating the unpleasant peripheral nervous system side effects to a point where any euphoria or motivation is shrouded in unpleasantness. At a glance this makes sense, the dextro isomer has a massive affinity for dopamine neurotransmitter release often called the pleasure chemical or the reward chemical, whereas the levo isomer has nearly no dopamine affinity but rather a massive and lengthy surge of adrenaline via norepinephrine release. I mean, up until quite recently levomethamphetamine was the active ingredient in Vicks brand over the counter congestion inhalers. The DEA wouldn't let any old 12 year old walk into CVS and buy a stick of meth right? (Laughs nervously while chewing on a Benzedrix cotton)

I'm here to tell you all that the chances of accidentally scoring a bag of racemic methamphetamine on the street is near enough to absurd that most meth users have never had it happen; and if they did have it happen it would but quite obvious.

So how would this happen anyways? I'm going to skip the lesson on stereochemistry and isomers as I assume the Bluelight audience is familiar enough with the concept to understand this material. Why would anyone even synthesize racemic meth if it's possible to simply make pure dextromethamphetamine. It starts with the precursors, essentially the starting point when making methamphetamine. A precursor is simply the chemical that a chemist intents to transform into the desired product using other chemicals called reagents or reactants. Think of it like a square that a sculptor will chisel away into a triangle. You would start with a circle as that would be more difficult; so you pick a shape that is already somewhat close to the one you want.

In the case of methamphetamine, the known precursors chemists use are two alkaloids that are naturally present within certain species Ephedra bush called ephedrine and pseudoephedrine (I will use PSE to refer to both of these chemicals as in this write up they are essentially interchangeable) which have existed since the dawn of time, and a metabolite of methamphetamine discovered in the mid 20th century called 1-phenyl-2-propanone(P2P/phenylacetone) in the USA and is also called benzyl-methyl-ketone(BMK) in Europe. All three chemicals are closely monitored and or illegal/difficult for a consumer to aquire in meaningful quanitites pretty much globally. Thus, a common way to source these chemicals is to purchase legal and unmonitored essential chemicals and create PSE or P2P from scratch.

PSE are chiral molecules just like methamphetamine, and interestingly only one of the two isomers actually exists naturally. The other is never produced by nature and didn't exist until it was made artificially. As it happens; the natural isomers reduce in chemical reaction into simply d-meth, it is not possible to yield any l-meth from a PSE reduction therefore any meth made using PSE as a starting material can only be the pure desired recreational version of meth.

P2P on the other hand is not chiral, it has no d and l isomer, and because of that it is randomly divided into d-meth and l-meth during the reaction process. This statistically gives you a racemic product; or an even half and half isomer content. It's somewhat puzzling why someone would then use P2P as a pecursor... ever. Even pharmaceutical compositions of meth for theraputic medical purposes requires the d isomer for best results, so there's really no meaningful reason to produce l-meth... it's not THAT good of a decongestant.

The reason pharmaceutical companies and clandestine Willy Wonkas like P2P over PSE come down to cost and efficiency; as it stands in 2024 P2P is much easier to make from legal chemicals than PSE, the reaction is consistently high yielding and pure regardless of your skill at chemistry, and most of all the most popular route from P2P to meth is the easiest one to scale up to a manufacturing level that can produce massive quantities of meth very quickly. All the major routes of reducing PSE either are impossible to scale up, or logistically far too risky either due to the destructive and dangerous chemicals that can't be handled in bulk, or the near impossibility of perform large reductions discreetly due to smells, sounds, or the size of facility required.

PSE is a good material to use as a precursor for an amateur "cook" in the garage making a few grams a month, but not for Cartels gangs, and the CIA to make in a large lab. Even in the popular fiction Breaking Bad; the process Walt uses in the superlab under the laundromat is a P2P reaction. Despite many inaccuracies or improbabilities in the show they do get this right.

In fact it is true that the Sinaloa Cartel in Mexico which sources almost all street meth for the United States alternates between a handful of reactions to make meth from P2P. "So hold on Dan!" You say while inserting a fat shard into your asshole with your Cheetah covered nubbins "then almost all the meth in the lower 48 is racemic!" No, you beautiful sweet stupid bastard. And I'll explain why.

Reductive Amination

The two most popular routes to make meth out of P2P are called Leuckhart and reductive amination. Leuckhart fell out of style, and generally you would choose reductive amination as your synthesis route because it's easy to get a high yield, relatively danger free, and the materials involved are painlessly easy to aquire for a consumer. This method was the one Walter White used to make his blue meth.

The process simply boils all the reagents together in one "pot", and the methamphetamine condenses from steam as the ketone and amine (P2P and methylamine typically) trade atoms. None of the chemicals are at a big risk of explosion or emitting deadly fumes, and as long as you can set a temperature on a burner, you really can't "overcook" or "undercook" the product by getting your measurements wrong or not watching the time. On paper the reaction looks much more complex and dorky than some of the popular PSE reductions, but anybody even moderately dedicated enough to purchase proper glassware and make the starting materials can pull it off anywhere with a heat source. In fact: THIS METHOD IS VERY POPULAR WITH INDIVIDUALLY OPERATING "COOKS". It isn't just the cartel who likes reductive amination.

But the product only contains 50% of the desired chemical still. And when competing with Billy Bob living in a Unibomber shed in the woods shaking up soda bottle bombs of PSE, you need a more powerful product than that.

Luckily since man began cooking up fat shards in the basement, optical resolution has existed. Yes, it's simple and cheap for anyone be it the cartel or grandma, to remove L-meth from a racemic product and be left only with d-meth. "WHAT?" You scream, both from the sweet sharp burn of your tight butthole flesh dissolving a point fiver of dirty crystal and in shock "but I thought it was like a super complicated procedure and a tight lipped secret?" No. Actually a liquid chemical called L-taurtaric acid is able to be simply poured over your racemic meth, and it dissolves and washed away only the L-meth and leaves behind only the D-meth.

But you do need to have high ranking laboratory and academic credentials to purchase L-taurtaric acid. Just kidding it's used in wine making and you can buy in cheaply online or in any high end liquor store anywhere. This procedure has been used forever, there's even an Erwoid article describing it from like the 1990s. Yes, you do waste half of the product you made but because of how cheap, easy, and consistently high yielding reductive amination is YOU LIKELY STILL WILL HAVE MORE, CLEANER, AND HIGHER QUALITY PRODUCT MADE IN A SHORTER SPAN OF TIME THAN PSE, EVEN WHEN THROWING HALF OUT.

I could go on about how there are various ways to convert the "wasted" l-meth back into a racemate and then do the process over and over again until you have all d-meth and waste 0 L-meth but that process is actually a bit more complex and expensive unless you're the cartel and can make meth by the tons. Oh but wait, there's a dumb as rocks easy method to convert L-meth into P2P and you can just use it again to make more meth so basically there's no reason you'd even be wasting anything at all.

In fact, for any chemist serious about making methamphetamine for the black market there's basically no reason at all to even consider using PSE. Reductive amination, resolving the product, and recycling the l-meth back into P2P is a money printing factory.

While meth makers and users are famously stereotyped for their honesty, virtues, and high standards of customer service, we have to assume there's at least one or two bad apples out there. What if a chemist makes meth from P2P and simply leaves the product racemic to save time and money, essentially selling a product that's pre-cut with L-meth and low quality in order to get more cash? Sounds unlike the peace loving and good hearted nature of stimulant users and dealers but suspend your disbelief and entertain this possibility for a minute.

There's no evidence what so ever that racemic meth is less potent in it's desirable high than D-meth, and there's no evidence whatsoever that it produces greater negative side effects than d-meth.

There is actually evidence though that racemic meths melting point is absurdly lower than the melting point of d-meth, and that forming shard like crystals from a racemate is insanely difficult and only a fine grained powder is achievable realistically.


The Truth about the Isomers


Without getting into insane detail here, most of the common street knowledge on meths isomers is entirely wrong. It's easy to understand why as I described early in the essay why at first glance one would think a racemate is only 50% as pleasurable as pure d-meth at best, shit I never even gave it much thought to research when writing my book initially. It was only after I tried a racemic product and a pure product back to back that I noticed "huh. These feel literally exactly the same."

There are a handful of animal studies that support the notion that racemic meth is weaker or unpleasant. But animal studies quite often don't reflect human reactions. There is only one single study I've found after days and days of researching this question that puts the effects of d-meth pure, l-meth pure, and racemic meth to comparison in humans. And this is what it found:

L-meth administered alone produced a pleasant high that was very short lived, followed by a long period of peripheral stimulation. The total effects of l-meth lasted the longest amount of time. WHEN HEART RATE AND BLOOD PRESSURE WERE MEASURED L-METH RESULTED IN THE SMALLEST CHANGE OF ALL THREE. IT HAD THE LEAST NEGATIVE PERIPHERAL NERVOUS SYSTEM IMPACT.

Racemic meth and d-meth were reported by subjects to feel EXACTLY THE SAME. The pleasurable effects, residual effects, peripheral effects and duration all were THE SAME. Blood pressure and heart rate readings were IDENTICAL TO D-METH. Essentially someone given a racemic product would be getting the exact same results as a pure d-meth product.

So d-meth alone had the worst side effects, the heaviest body load, and the shortest duration of effects. But if it's so heavy on dopamine, why?

It's pretty much exactly as potent at releasing norepinephrine as l-meth for one. It's not a simple matter of "d-meth is all dopamine no adrenaline, and l-meth is all adrenaline no dopamine". Beyond that, dopamine isn't as simple as people tend to treat it, and PLEASURE IS NOT CAUSED BY DOPAMINE. In fact ADRENALINE is more likely to induce euphoria than dopamine, and is responsible for the rush meth users tend to chase.

At high recreational doses, it doesn't matter whether it's d-meth or racemic YOU'RE MAXING OUT YOUR DOPAMINE AND ADRENALINE EITHER WAY. If a one product has the potential to release 200% of dopamine, and another only has the potential to release 125% of dopamine then YOU STILL ARE HAVING 100% OF YOUR DOPAMINE RELEASED. THE EXTRA POTENTIALL 100% OR 25% IS MEANINGLESS.


Besides, a smoker would notice immediately if their product was racemic as it would be sold as a fine powder only which is rather uncommon most places, and the melting point of racemic meth is 130 degrees rather than 175 degrees which any seasoned smoker would instantly notice. That's a MASSIVE difference



So then. Why does the meth from some bags make you feel like shit and some doesn't? Well, it's because your dealer put doo doo and piss and cum into it because it's a street drug. From the street. So it's dirty and yucky you spoon. Also meth makes you feel like shit.


Thank you for your time
This was truly a pleasure to read. Highly literate, well punctuated. I wish I liked stims or cared about the content. But still 10/10. You’re a gifted writer.
 
My pupils stopped dilating from using it years ago. I never run into any newbees so I don't know if their pupils dilate or not but I would love to know.
I doubt it's particularly meaningful but figured I'd share my experience; dopaminergic drugs have never resulted in my pupils dilating strictly on their own... Meth actually constricts my pupils initially. The only drug I've taken that dialated my pupils during the come up are psilocybin mushrooms... Even serotonin dominant drugs like LSD and MDMA don't consistently get the dialation

With meth however I noticed that my pupils began to dialate progressively the longer I continued an uninterupted binge and accumulated sleep debt. By day three with two nights of sleep being missed my eyes would typically be saucers and it is around day three that I'd become sensitive enough to stress that it would cascade into delusions. Therefore I speculated that D2 slowly accumulating and upregulating receptors as the binge carried on was the culprit of pupil dialation... And you do see that response in bipolar type 1 patients experiencing psychotic episodes amidst mania of which multi day insomnia is a Hallmark.

The only other person I'd ever used meth with, her pupils did dialate immediately from the same batch that mine did not. I suspect it must be a biochemistry thing that depends more on the individual than on the drug itself but beats me. To your point I also was not using meth pre "Combat Meth Epidemic Act" of 2005 so it could support that the drug has changed

Edit: a word
 
I understood that at least some Mexican-made methamphetamine was raecemic but with a change of precursors and the need to make the most of the precursors available, they now resolve the isomers so that the enantiopure compounds is now the benchmark.

Mind you, I tried a small (40mg) dose of the enantiopure compound and thought someone was chasing me around Amsterdam. A friend had given be a decent amount of the stuff - 7 or 8 grams. I gave the rest away.

I CAN see why it appeals to the US mindset. We noted that when desoxypipradrol was an RC and we kept track of orders, it was mostly people in the US who were buying it.

Anyone who has tried desoxypipradrol will tell you that it's a very long-lived derivative of methamphetamine. I mean 72+ hours after a single dose.

We also noted that many if not most were also ordering diclazepam - which is, to the best of my knowledge, the longest-lived benzo thus far discovered. We often wondered if users were pairing the two. I used to enjoy the occasional sidewinder (mix of an upper and a downer) myself.

My tipple was dexamphetamine tablets (SKF-5s) and Valium (diazepam). Because the latter has the longer half-life, you start off speedy but without that bothersome locostimulation (diazepam being a muscle relaxant) and gently segue into relaxed sleep. A favourite for clubbing at higher doses (50mg of each).
 
I understood that at least some Mexican-made methamphetamine was raecemic but with a change of precursors and the need to make the most of the precursors available, they now resolve the isomers so that the enantiopure compounds is now the benchmark.

Mind you, I tried a small (40mg) dose of the enantiopure compound and thought someone was chasing me around Amsterdam. A friend had given be a decent amount of the stuff - 7 or 8 grams. I gave the rest away.

I CAN see why it appeals to the US mindset. We noted that when desoxypipradrol was an RC and we kept track of orders, it was mostly people in the US who were buying it.

Anyone who has tried desoxypipradrol will tell you that it's a very long-lived derivative of methamphetamine. I mean 72+ hours after a single dose.

We also noted that many if not most were also ordering diclazepam - which is, to the best of my knowledge, the longest-lived benzo thus far discovered. We often wondered if users were pairing the two. I used to enjoy the occasional sidewinder (mix of an upper and a downer) myself.

My tipple was dexamphetamine tablets (SKF-5s) and Valium (diazepam). Because the latter has the longer half-life, you start off speedy but without that bothersome locostimulation (diazepam being a muscle relaxant) and gently segue into relaxed sleep. A favourite for clubbing at higher doses (50mg of each).
Interesting observations...

I would like to amend my post as a kind stranger demonstrated to me that one can recrystallize D,L-methamphetamine into dense small shards with a little bit of know how. The shards looked appreciably different from what we are typically of the cartel but not so drastically different that a buyer who did not scrutinize his stash could be forgiven for not noticing at all.

You're correct that there was a period of a year or two shortly after China banned pseudoephedrine and ephedrine exports and imposed harshed penalties where 90% of the US meth supply was racemic... That's when the cartel switched to P2P and they took a long period of adjusting before working out their current system. So my clickbait title is wrong; there are likely many people who've bought racemic meth on the streets. Just not since around 2011-2012
 
A major paradigm shit for me came when I discovered how different generic forms of the same pharmaceutical can have such radically different effects. I've used a lot of different drugs in my life, both licit and illicit. This is really the first time in my life that I've been on pharmaceuticals for an extended period of time, changing brands and such.

I had always assumed that the conjecture regarding generic drugs was a mental thing i.e. not real. I've now experienced this first-hand. How can one form of Lisdexamfetamine (Vyvanse) be so radically different in terms of effects? I've heard different arguments, including such variables as the dyes used to produce the capsules.

This whole experience has made me much more open to the idea of these subtle differences producing noticeable differences in how drugs are experienced. If these generic drugs can be so different from one another, I can believe that different forms of Methamphetamine can also have differing effects.
 
A major paradigm shit for me came when I discovered how different generic forms of the same pharmaceutical can have such radically different effects. I've used a lot of different drugs in my life, both licit and illicit. This is really the first time in my life that I've been on pharmaceuticals for an extended period of time, changing brands and such.
And see given all the evidence and everything I understand about how genetics are regulated by the FDA... this just doesn't make sense.

I think it's somewhat telling that I only ever see these complaints about pharmaceuticals specifically in the context of amphetamine preparations though; not any other drugs whether they be psychiatric or not.

I had always assumed that the conjecture regarding generic drugs was a mental thing i.e. not real. I've now experienced this first-hand. How can one form of Lisdexamfetamine (Vyvanse) be so radically different in terms of effects? I've heard different arguments, including such variables as the dyes used to produce the capsules.
I can't and won't invalidate your experience, but where I stand in my thinking here is that there has to be some explanation outside of the drugs inherent molecular makeup and potency... At least until someone can prove it.

I do believe it's possible that cheap genetics supplied from India or China could absolutely contain inactives that interfere with the potency... Or even be completely ignoring FDA standards while the FDA doesn't hold them to high enough scrutiny. But it just hasn't been proven yet

This whole experience has made me much more open to the idea of these subtle differences producing noticeable differences in how drugs are experienced. If these generic drugs can be so different from one another, I can believe that different forms of Methamphetamine can also have differing effects.
I think at this stage it's clear that substituted amphetamines for whatever reason create wildly variable subjective effects of subjective responses to the same neurotransmitter release.

For example my entire life, every amphetamine pharmaceutical I was prescribed as a kid thru college has always induced dysphoria and blunted libido for me. Just a hollow empty robotic sortof productive state, with complete loss of desire to socialize and shit. Meth does the exact same thing; and it's clear that the cause of meth inducing dysphoria in me has nothing to do with the physical drug quality itself, but rather with my biochemistry and my unique neuroplasticity that has been developed and learned by my experiences in life

It's without a doubt 100% possible that there's something going on with both street meth AND pharmaceutical amphetamines but... That's starting to demonstrate an isolated pattern to me where maybe we just need to question whether amphetamines are all that consistent of drugs
 
A major paradigm shit for me came when I discovered how different generic forms of the same pharmaceutical can have such radically different effects. I've used a lot of different drugs in my life, both licit and illicit. This is really the first time in my life that I've been on pharmaceuticals for an extended period of time, changing brands and such.

I worked in the pharmaceutical industry for some years and one of the key tests for generics is that they are supposed to behave in precisely the same manner as the original patented and branded product. If memory serves, the total dose must be within 5% of the stated dose. I suggest that in the months or even years leading up to loss of patent protection, makers of the branded product er on the side of +5% so patients will note the difference. Not charity. A cynical way of maintaining brand loyalty.

Now I'm aware of several generics being removed from the market because they failed such simple requirements. If you have ever seen the licencing form (in fact it comes as of two ring bound books each with >1000 pages) required to obtain a GSL for a generic, there is a simply vast number of requirements. Everything from livery (both packaging and product) to the PIL to the excipients to physical properties such as stability.

Even then, we still saw several common medications containing unacceptable quantities of nitrosoamines which are extremely potent carcinogens! That one I can make an informed guess - the manufacturers altered the synthesis to reduce the volume of solvent used. It's happened before. Tryptophan was removed from the market because it contained a toxic impurity caused by synthesis using insufficient amounts of solvent.

But I suppose bupropion is the most infamous example with the generic modified (sustained) release formulation dose-dumping which resulted in a number of patients suffering tonic-clonic (grand mal) seizures!

Only a few months ago a BLer noted that the oral morphine tablets they were prescribed had been mis-labelled with the 30mg tablets containing 60mg and vice versa. In that case it's likely that the two formulations were produced using a single press and someone confused the dies.

Before that I recall patients prescribed buprenorphine buccal films opening the package to discover that the film was absent and in it's place was a simple piece of thin cardboard. That must have been awful because I suppose some pharmacists are suspicious of people undergoing opioid detoxification asking for more opioids. Patients may feel they wouldn't be believed. Luckily someone opened a film IN the pharmacy thus proof in the form of video evidence expedited recall and replacement.

In that last case it's hard to know if that was a production error or someone stealing the stuff. IS there a market for the stuff? I have no idea.

In short, it's not supposed to be the case and yet we see it again and again. Presuming it's equally likely to occur in the formulation of non-psychoactive medicines, it seems likely that people have needlessly died because their generic medication turned out to be unreliable.

I have said this before but if anyone decides to have instrumental analysis carried out on a sample, I am experienced in GC-MS (and related technologies), NMR as well as X-ray crystallography (still widely used in China) and I WILL interpret such data for BLers gratis. I'm not saying that the product sold as tilmetamine is toxic, but the instrumental analysis posted on BL clearly showed that it was not, in fact, the N-methyl homologue of tiletamine i.e. 2-(methylamino)-2-(thiophen-2-yl)cyclohexan-1-one. It was the positional isomer, 2-(methylamino)-2-(thiophen-3-yl)cyclohexan-1-one, a compound I could find no data on.

To me, CMXE (2-(2-chloro-5-methoxyphenyl)-2-(ethylamino)cyclohexan-1-one AKA SMILES COc1ccc(Cl)c(c1)C1(CCCCC1=O)NCC) seems likely to be the last 'great' arylcyclohexylamine NMDA antagonist/DRI that has yet to be seen on the RC market. It's more potent than K and MXE. It's also a good option because if the balance of the two discrete actions isn't favourable, the N-ethyl can be substituted with an N-methyl to reduce NMDA activity OR with an N-isopropyl which will increase NMDA activity. It can be 'tuned'. On top of that, the way Parke-Davis hurridly patented that specific compound suggests that they felt it was of particular utility.

So take care and consider it to be my own small part in keeping all BLers in the loop, in the community and safe from harm.
 
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Theres also a somewhat more recent method that's been discussed in literature from the United Nations which forces P2P into an optical stance, thus when the reaction occurs the product is already entirely dextromethamphetamine without having to resolve or recycle anything. I'm not sure how complex this process is, but there's evidence it does see use in Southeast Asia although Myanmar has recently converted their entire operation into a growing in popularity Emde reduction of PSE, a process that leaves behind almost 0 waste and 0 synthesis byproducts and can be scaled up. It's a fascinating development I'm happy to discuss privately with anyone interested academically
I'd love to talk with you about this. And so much more. I've just started my research in this direction over the past two weeks and I love it. Love to learn about the drug that has occupied my mind and choices more times than not...
 
I'd love to talk with you about this. And so much more. I've just started my research in this direction over the past two weeks and I love it. Love to learn about the drug that has occupied my mind and choices more times than not...

Well, you hydrogenate P2P with (1R)-1-phenylethan-1-amine and then increase the pressure which performs the debenzylation. That's how dexamphetamine was made - may still be the way dexamphetamine is made.
 
I really didn't intend it to take on such an ironic meaning, but the amusing way it's played out hasn't been lost on me either lol


The start of the issue I have with these claims is that they're rarely consistent. The issues you describe are lock step with Sam Quionnes and his lazy article written for the Atlantic titled 'the new meth', where Sam makes a lot of assertions about P2P (including that it is a new precursor... Which is just blatantly false) based mainly on the tales of a homeless meth addict he interviews on Skid Row. Most of his supporting evidence can be explained very easily with the reality that meth is more abundant, cheaper, and widely abused than ever before. Hacker I believe wrote a decent rebuttal.

However Sam's claims aren't exactly consistent with the community. N-isopropylbenzylamine has transformed throughout its history as a benign filler cut, to a tranquilizing 'sleepy' active cutting agent and finally a stimulant which induces negative effects which all conveniently are known to also be associated with amphetamine abuse. The reactions that users attribute to this 'widrspread' 'new' meth coming from 'Mexico' have never been consistent, nor have they even consistently identified a United problem. Is it that P2P somehow makes more toxic meth? (Hard to believe as d-meth is exceptionally toxic alone) Is it that the cartel doesn't perform a resolution of the enantiomers, and racemic meth is to blame? Is in MSM? Fentany? N-isopropylbenzylamine? Ask a random person on a random day and you'll hear a mix and match of answers and explanations, never with evidence...

I'm not prepared to dismiss that a significant portion of the community is having a good faith negative or underwhelming reaction to meth produced since 2017ish(the year meth changed also gets changed a lot) and that it's worthy of discussion, theorizing, and investigation. My issue is that there's simply assertion of myths as fact, and no one ever bothers with actually investigating and finding a real answer if not for harm reduction but for intellectual curiosity.

There is however plenty of evidence and plenty of plausible explanations for the issues happening that suggests meth is more pure and more potent than ever before; but is simply being used in new ways like massive mega dosing since a gram is a fraction of the cost it was in the 1990s-2000s; and that new inexperienced users are at a number never seen in the US before... So of course there's moee hoslitalizations and incidents of psychosis. There's simply way more users using way more drug than ever before.


If there is alternative evidence that can fill in all the gaps as well as that explanation, I'll be 100% on board. It's not about being right, it's about transparent and accurate information being provided to users. It's just that these N-isopropylbenzylamine claims date back over a decade, not just seven years. And yet here we are, still empty handed. As we are with all the other 'meth is meaningfully and significantly different now' hypothesis and theories.

So I just can't pretend to take the same old tired claims seriously when they always are backed by an anonymous forum member or Redditor's assertion that they were around and using meth in the 90s/00s, and 'trust me bro'. I don't trust it, tbh.
So I'm in the feds right now for meth. I came down in late 2017 and the stuff was no good to me but others loved it. I did not understand whatt made them different. It had the brown puddle that stayed wet longer and I used to just kinda roll it fast and throw it to the side. I used meth every few months on the weekend from 2014 up until 2017 when I got heavily involved. Dope was getting worse and worse but still just as pretty. I was not knowledgeable then I've learned alot from several forums I want to know so much more kinda just like your questions so much answers but no proof. We need a chemist to get 20 batches from all over the US and bring them down to each separate cut or type of meth. That would be so interesting. I live in ga. We are flooded with dope I eat sleep and it's so weird. I mean I like it because of that but I miss the real high. Gram used to last all weekend between 2 people. Now I can smoke 2 grams a day I just went 5 years sober in here and relapsed Inyo the weakest meth. It's probably showing 98 percent pure like when I got locked up. But whatever purity there looking into is not the purity of what we get that euphoria from. And that's a fact because I'm not used to mth after 5 years sober. After 2 weeks every day I don't miss. Meal and I get atleast 4 or 5 hours of sleep and I alone am doing a gram a day.... if there is videos I can watch I'd love to know where I can see them and learn more, even other forums. It's terrible we have to deal with this 30 a gram shit I'll pay 100 all day just to get that good high back...
 
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