Heroin Withdrawal doesn't make sense.

[JackBurton89]

I am a member of bluelight I just can't login for some reason. I have been using opiates for years but over the last few months I could only use maybe twice or three times a week because of financial constraints. I was sick most of the time. I got clean in November for about 30 days used then got clean again for three weeks used, overdosed, got out of the hospital 5 days later used for three days (I found 8 bags in a DVD case) got sick but not horribly sick. Cleaned up until a few days ago got three bags did them over a 12 hour period. Around 24 hours after my last use I started to feel like shit and its getting worse. I don't know if I have a cold and it's just in my mind because I went to an NA meeting 2 days ago and shook a lot of hands and hugs. Is it possible to have minor withdrawal after being clean for 24 days and using for 12 hours? I guess I would have to wait like 90 days to be safe.

 

[Crashing]

Yep. Once your brain reorganizes your opiate receptor site, i believe it remembers that organization, and therefore when you add an opiate more than ONCE in a three day period, ever again in your life, you will feel withdrawal after.

 

[XThexXTank]

So wait if ya get clean and ever decide to use again for a lil bit (either few day binge or often but not often enough that would normally get ya hooked) that'll automatically get ya addicted again and you'll get withdraws?

 

[Crashing]

Once you're addicted you pretty much cannot use dosages consecutively again in your life without feeling some sort of withdrawal. At least that seems to be the general idea.

 

[sekio]

That's untrue. What generally happens, however, is addicts relapse "just this once", and then that one relapse begins a week-long heroin stint or something. Then of course you will get withdrawal.

If you stop using opioids for a long time (6 months plus) your tolerance will gradually drift downwards. It will never reach the same level as when you first took an opioid though - but it can get pretty low.
Ex-opioid addicts who get out of prison and decide to "resume their career" sometimes overdose and die when they dose however much heroin they would have used before they got arrested.

Generally withdrawal is proprotional to the length of time you've been using a drug, and the amount of drug used in that time. If you are not dependent (not withdrawing from opiates) and you take a huge amount of opioids, you may well withdraw afterwards, but if you eat 10mg of oxycodone you probably won't even get sick afterwards.

Of course this is pretty variable between people. But the myth that you "use heroin a few times and get addicted to it forever" is untrue.

 

[Crashing]

What i thought happened was that your brain alters the amount of opiate receptors available for the drug to bind to whilst addicted, and then after being clean for some time it goes back to normal (although not 100%). Then after that if you take one dosage of an opiate down the road, your brain picks up on it and reorganizes the receptor site back to how it was when you were addicted in full swing, so it primes you for that second dose which, if taken, leads to withdrawal effects. Is that not true?

 

[sekio]

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

 

[RedRum OG]

The more you get addicted, kick, and re-addicted, the worse the withdrawals are and the quicker it happens.

The only cure is time

 

[Swimmingdancer]

What i thought happened was that your brain alters the amount of opiate receptors available for the drug to bind to whilst addicted, and then after being clean for some time it goes back to normal (although not 100%). Then after that if you take one dosage of an opiate down the road, your brain picks up on it and reorganizes the receptor site back to how it was when you were addicted in full swing, so it primes you for that second dose which, if taken, leads to withdrawal effects. Is that not true?

It is not understood what exactly makes people get dependent/withdrawals far more easily when they have been dependent on opioids before. But it IS known that it happens. Once someone has been dependent on opioids their tolerance will go up far more rapidly than tolerance rises in someone who has never been dependent on opioids. In a matter of days a substantial portion of their old tolerance will return. Withdrawal symptoms upon stopping will happen with much shorter length of use than with someone who has never been dependent on opioids (exact length of time is highly variable depending on the person, their history with opioids, what opioid it is and what dose, their environment, mindset, etc, but it's definitely not unheard of for very short periods of use to trigger withdrawal symptoms).

It is theorized to likely be a combination of things like conditioning - which plays a big role in withdrawals and is not something you can choose to control -, some kind of metabolic setpoint and some sort of "physical memory" which triggers receptor changes.

With withdrawal symptoms after just one single day of use I would hazard a guess that conditioning could be the primary mechanism, and other mental stuff may be involved, like guilt, or a nocebo effect (attributing any unpleasant/sick feelings to the drug use, even if in reality they could be unrelated).

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

We are not rats and I don't think that's evidence to disprove that once you have been dependent on opioids you can get dependent again with much shorter periods of use. The only thing that research showed that I assume you are connecting with this thread, unless I missed something(?), was that rats who were made physically dependent on morphine for the first time (given morphine for just under 2 months) who had never quit before and were moved into the luxurious "rat park" upon quitting did not show signs of mental addiction and did show dependence and withdrawal symptoms but had milder withdrawal symptoms than "one hears about". It's simply showing the connection between environment and addiction. I would feel better than usual during withdrawal if I moved to a tropical island, that doesn't mean that physical dependence (or symptoms mimicking it) isn't more likely once you've been dependent before. Moving someone to an unfamiliar environment is also known to decrease their tolerance to opioids and is responsible for a fair number of overdoses. Opioid tolerance, dependence and withdrawal and complex and poorly understood. I don't see how Rat Park proves that receptor changes are not involved in the rapid tolerance and dependence people experience when they have been dependent on opioids in the past?

 

[Toz]

That's untrue. What generally happens, however, is addicts relapse "just this once", and then that one relapse begins a week-long heroin stint or something. Then of course you will get withdrawal.

If you stop using opioids for a long time (6 months plus) your tolerance will gradually drift downwards. It will never reach the same level as when you first took an opioid though - but it can get pretty low.
Ex-opioid addicts who get out of prison and decide to "resume their career" sometimes overdose and die when they dose however much heroin they would have used before they got arrested.

Generally withdrawal is proprotional to the length of time you've been using a drug, and the amount of drug used in that time. If you are not dependent (not withdrawing from opiates) and you take a huge amount of opioids, you may well withdraw afterwards, but if you eat 10mg of oxycodone you probably won't even get sick afterwards.

Of course this is pretty variable between people. But the myth that you "use heroin a few times and get addicted to it forever" is untrue.

I find that time is not on your side if you have been addicted before (even if you had a whole 6 month break) when it comes to using. These days I get withdrawal if I use 3 days in a row. If I do that, I might get a week of bad withdrawal. Use on the 4:th day and it's the whole thing again with PAWS etc. Then I am screwed and it will feel like I've used for a whole month either way.

Opiate addiction is not forgiving once you've been dependant over and over and over...

I tried using tramadol on 2 days a week, like friday/tuesday. That worked for a month, then same thing happened.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

A single day of moderate opiate usage shouldn't get you psychically dependent again after you're fully clean. However, IME it doesn't take much more than that to get screwed again... 2-3 days of not even super heavy use is more than enough time for a lot of us to get strung out again. I suppose one day of very heavy usage could be enough to make you feel a little shitty the next day, but for me it usually takes about 2-3 days of using again at basically any level to be fucked again.

 

[Crashing]

Well i mean, just look at what the OP said. He had been clean 24 days, used a couple times over 12 hours and experienced withdrawal after. Whether the specifics of what i said are totally true or not, it's a good idea not to do this, because i have experienced the same phenomena!

 

[Captain.Heroin]

A single dosage isn't enough to get you dependent again.

Some people get an opiate hangover, where they don't feel that great the next day, but this is far from legitimate psychological and physical heroin withdrawals.

 

[Znegative]

^true.

However, I think that it is possible to get addicted again from using for only one day, if you use multiple times in that day (as the OP did), I feel that its probably more likely that someone who's been clean and uses 3-4 times a day for two days will get a habit than someone who uses once a day for even as long as five days. When you never allow your body to even begin to come down, you're setting up a pattern that your brain will begin to expect. If you use only once a day at different times, you can probably avoid dependency a little bit longer, but either way, you'll end up hooked again in a matter of time.

 

[punkboi26]

The brain itself can induce withdrawal symptoms regardless of how long you have been clean. I was clean for a very long time and during that period of sobriety I found that certain triggers that caused cravings subsequently induced quite a few symptoms of withdrawal. Cold sweats, runny nose, the yawns, RLS and nausea. Now, the fact that you slipped or whatever could have easily caused your brain to induce these phantom withdrawals. This also happens with my mother who has been clean from drinking for 10 years. She will also get symptoms when the right triggers come along. I think this might even go hand in hand with IV drug users that feel euphoria before the needle even penetrates the skin. The latter obviously being the opposite of the former. I know when I think about opiate withdrawal it will make me anxious, my heart will race, my nose will start getting runny and so on. These things aren't directly related to your environment. I think they can be directly related to the state of the brain at that exact moment. I think there is so very much more to be learned about the human brain. Scientists and doctors haven't even remotely come close to scratching the surface of what the brain is really capable of. The human brain is the final frontier. There might come a time when we might even be able to think our way into a heroin high by releasing endorphins at will. Anyway, I have also suffered from withdrawals from a 2 day slip. The Rat Club Med experiment really only shows one thing. Rats do stuff and shit and things and some of that data can be used in lieu of using human experimentation but the thing is.... they aren't humans. Many drugs work on humans that don't do anything for rats.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^true.

However, I think that it is possible to get addicted again from using for only one day, if you use multiple times in that day (as the OP did), I feel that its probably more likely that someone who's been clean and uses 3-4 times a day for two days will get a habit than someone who uses once a day for even as long as five days. When you never allow your body to even begin to come down, you're setting up a pattern that your brain will begin to expect. If you use only once a day at different times, you can probably avoid dependency a little bit longer, but either way, you'll end up hooked again in a matter of time.

Yeah I have had seriously heavy single days of using (full day of using, not just one dose) lead to withdrawal symptoms the next day. But, with normal usage it takes a couple days to get re-strung out. Thank god.. hah. If it happened in just one day we'd all be even more fucked than we are now.

 

[scottd420]

The more you get addicted, kick, and re-addicted, the worse the withdrawals are and the quicker it happens.

The only cure is time

Just as Sekio said, the only thing that makes the withdrawals worse is if you get part way through them and then use again, or you've been using for a longer period of time than the last time you kicked. Other than that, this is untrue. Even if you continue to use on and off, only each time you stay clean for longer or reduce your doses you will notice your withdrawals getting shorter and/or less intense.

The brain itself can induce withdrawal symptoms regardless of how long you have been clean. I was clean for a very long time and during that period of sobriety I found that certain triggers that caused cravings subsequently induced quite a few symptoms of withdrawal. Cold sweats, runny nose, the yawns, RLS and nausea. Now, the fact that you slipped or whatever could have easily caused your brain to induce these phantom withdrawals. This also happens with my mother who has been clean from drinking for 10 years. She will also get symptoms when the right triggers come along. I think this might even go hand in hand with IV drug users that feel euphoria before the needle even penetrates the skin. The latter obviously being the opposite of the former. I know when I think about opiate withdrawal it will make me anxious, my heart will race, my nose will start getting runny and so on. These things aren't directly related to your environment. I think they can be directly related to the state of the brain at that exact moment. I think there is so very much more to be learned about the human brain. Scientists and doctors haven't even remotely come close to scratching the surface of what the brain is really capable of. The human brain is the final frontier. There might come a time when we might even be able to think our way into a heroin high by releasing endorphins at will. Anyway, I have also suffered from withdrawals from a 2 day slip. The Rat Club Med experiment really only shows one thing. Rats do stuff and shit and things and some of that data can be used in lieu of using human experimentation but the thing is.... they aren't humans. Many drugs work on humans that don't do anything for rats.

While it is true that we aren't rats, ample studies have been done that shows we have similar receptor profiles in a lot of our brains, and they all start at the same form while developing (neural tube), if you look up brain development you will see this. It's almost impossible to tell them apart until they take their fully developed shape, hence why so many of the drugs that we give for studies have the very same, if not very close effects on rats as they do on humans.
I must say the whole issue you experienced with phantom withdrawals is very interesting, though not unbelievable.

Also, OP, if you took a very small dose of oxycodone, maybe 5-10 milligrams after a night of usage it will probably kill the hangover effects, but not set you up for a second one. Maybe try 5mg and smoke a joint next time, this should eliminate that problem. Just make sure you don't go past 10mg or you may feel shitty for a second time. You won't get dependent from a couple days, or even a few days, but you don't want to push it.
Anyway man, good luck and let us know how it goes. Peace!

 

[blight12]

I like your title, this is exactly what i thought encountering a form of withdrawals, though my trip report was titled Withdrawals are Flawed. Close enough.

 

['medicine cabinet']

sounds to me like you are having mild WD from those bags. so much of it is mental, and i could be wrong but from what you are saying, the 24hr mark not feeling well and getting wrose, sounds like you caught a mini habit after kicking. it really dose take a while to get "clean" doing dope during that recovery phase is kinda like getting sent back to first base to start over again, its not as bad, but your body knows it had its opiate receptors turned on again in the specific way heroin does, and they are cranky for lack of a better word (personalizing opiate receptors, hiallarious) it just takes time. i bet in a day or two you will be feeling much better.

unless you did catch the flu or a cold in one of those dirty ass meetings, then, get some zinc. its good for your immune system.

 

[down508]

this is what makes heroin so insidious, and one of the many reasons why sometimes all it takes is one use to get you back into the cycle. if you dont want to experience withdrawal you should stop doing opiates. that's the price we pay. like my mom told me new years day a couple years ago, "if you want to play you have to pay"

and I know what you're thinking... no my mom isn't a prostitute, she was talking about drugs.