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Why is MDMA just not as good now? (Without abuse)

T

terarc

Bluelighter
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So... My first experience with MDMA (untested) was pretty f'in good but lacking I think because I ate a huge meal just before. I had another experience with the same batch 1 week later (dumb I know) about 8 hrs into an LSD trip which was absolutely LIFE CHANGING and I met my current partner who I know live with during the experience. Both these trips were 125mg roughly. 1 month later I had another experience with her, on the same batch again, at 125mg + a little bit that was left after crushing the crystals, probably totalling no more than 140mg. This absolutely blew my mind and was so intensely euphoric it felt like I was going to literally explode, my girlfriend is quite small and she actually fainted during the experience. Overall though it was incredible and we had an amazing afterglow after both these two experiences.

After this I took a two month break and we took another batch (tested) at 100mg. Come up was anxious, had lots of stomach pains, headache and ill feeling throughout, seemed to last forever and I had stomach pains for a few days after and really low mood. Bad experience. We took a 5 month break after this and the next time I took it was with just with an old friend of mine, first time taking it in a club setting (we had been doing it at home or in bars, just talking through life and our problems and desires etc). This was another different batch, tested, at 115mg. It took two hours to come up (??) for both of us, I was feeling it pretty good for an hour or so then I just started to think in a sober way again, had good sensory enhancement and body high for the rest of the roll but couldn't shake this sober thought process that quickly turned into a depressive mindset that lasted until I was fully down, then I just felt tired as per. Next time after this was one month later on another batch (tested, and lab analysed to 96% pure MDMA.HCl with no active cuts). This was in a club with my girlfriend and she had a very bad anxiety episode lasting the entire roll so this made me anxious too, I can't comment on what it would have been like if this situation hadn't occurred. The next (and last) time after this was the same batch again at 85mg at home, it was useful and therapeutic but not euphoric or really fun.

So this leads me to ask, why can't I access the experience I had those first few times even though I tried to keep my use in check? The first batch was untested, but how can it be that it would be better than MDMA if it was fake? It was also bought from an online vendor with reviews that claimed to have tested it, so if true it could only have been MDA or MDEA if not MDMA. After the third experience I have supplemented 5-HTP with after every roll for a few days and used most of the supplements from roll-safe, and even between rolls have tried supplementing 5-HTP, Rhodiola, Tryptophan and St Johns Wort for weeks at a time. And why does the thought of and effect of MDMA make myself and my girlfriend so anxious now? I should mention that between the third and fourth rolls we had a really bad experience with a series of 2C-B trips that left us in a bad way mentally, but as we recovered from that the MDMA experiences have not improved particularly. The 2C-B issues affected other drugs too but not to as great an extent, and they seem to be returning to as before more quickly. Sorry for the long post and I know nobody can definitively answer this, but any ideas? We are thinking of trying MDA (tested in a lab) next time and seeing if that's maybe what we got the first time. We did have some pretty incredible neon electronic visuals towards the end of the 140mg trip when vaping weed. I dunno... any help is appreciated. We just wanna be able to drop every 4 or 5 months and know we are off to that magical place and not some anxious and personal downer.

Edit:
I have a pretty good diet too (vegan, lots of fresh fruit and veg every day), not too much processed food and I take a _lot_ of vitamins and supplements every day and have done for the entire time span of this post. Not incredibly active but active enough to be pretty healthy, and I'm studying a maths degree so my brain is pretty in tune too... so I really don't know what else I could do. It's been nearly 4 months since the last experience
 
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Stop the St Johns Wort, it's most likely that, it's a reuptake inhibitor & up-regulates serotonin receptors, which will cause tolerance, similar to how SSRIs dull MDMA. Possibly stop the Rhodiola as well, that might be an MAOI. Don't mix MDMA with antidepressants even if they're herbal or seem mild. Avoid supplements in general unless you study exactly what they can do & how they might interact with other things you take, don't trust anybody called "roll-safe".

You don't need 5htp either, tryptophan is probably ok, but use it sparingly, not daily, you should get enough in your diet if you eat enough protein, there are good plant sources of typtophan too (legumes, cereals, etc). Also, MDMA has some cross tolerance with psychedelics like 2C-B, they all affect serotonin. Try to avoid other things that affect serotonin if you don't want it to affect your MDMA, if you have higher levels of serotonin in your brain all the time your brain will adjust to that, causing an MDMA tolerance. Need to stop pumping unnatural levels of serotonin in your brain & let those receptors down-regulate again.

If you've been really overdoing the serotonin affecting supplements you might even need to taper off them, like other SSRI users need to. St Johns Wort isn't totally benign, it could possibly cause withdrawals if you've been using it daily for a long time.

If you're taking MDMA in low to moderate doses less than once a month then I think there's no need for supplements, it's better to let your brain/body find it's natural balance. Maybe supplements might help some addicts come off their daily MDMA habit, but they're not needed at all for normal use & can only cause more problems, since you shouldn't be having any problems to solve from that amount of MDMA use alone.

If you're vegan, then you might need B vitamin & iron supplements, along with anything else a vegan diet lacks, but don't be taking extra supplements because of MDMA.
 
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I didn't mean I am continuously using St johns wort, rhodiola, 5htp and tryptophan, I have simply done a few week course of each as a one off at various points in my mdma breaks, both to see if they helped with my general anxiety as well as help with my mdma experiences. I never saw any improvements so never took them for more than a week to a month. The only regularity of use of these is that I use 5htp for three days after every roll. As for vitamins and supplements, I take these due to my diet and not specifically because of mdma, I was just stating that I take them to clarify that I am covered by my diet and vitamin supplements in terms of nutrition so was ruling that out as a cause. I've had blood tests and keep track of the nutritional content of my diet and everything is fine, and this was before I started taking vitamins, so I don't see a problem there. I do take the supplements on roll-safe each time I take mdma though
 
Ask Dr. Shulgin Online

ARCHIVE: April 10, 2002

MDMA (Ecstasy) Tolerance

Dear Dr. Shulgin:

Can you explain to me why MDMA has what appears to be such a prolonged occurrence of tolerance? I've heard a bunch of my raver friends tell me they just don't roll as hard as they used to and I find it hard to believe this can simply be written off as a decrease in the quality of pills. Many of my friends even tell me the first few times they rolled were the best but they just don't feel the effects as much anymore.

I would feel a lot more confident in your assurances that MDMA isn't neurotoxic if I perceived a tolerance to MDMA that was similar to psilocybin or LSD...but I just don't. Can you help me out here Sasha? I'm worried!

-- Moecat



Dear Dr. Shulgin:
After my first 150 MDMA pills, with any MDMA pill I took the positive effects were very low and negative were high. I was still trying to get that loveable feeling but I get absolutely nothing but a nasty hangover. I quit for a couple of months then tried it again and nothing but an awful hangover...will I ever get the loveable feeling back or is it gone forever?

-- Specialist

Dear Moecat and Specialist:

I have combined your letters in that both of you are experiencing the same property that MDMA invokes with repeated usage, and you are both asking the same question looking for some explanation.

The property you are experiencing is what I call the loss of the magic of that first experience. My first experience with this drug was indeed magical. I was suddenly one with myself, one with the world; I was a person who had no secrets from himself and one who could trust others to be as honest with him as he was with himself. Almost everyone has a vivid recollection of his first experience. That is what I call the "magic." But that is usually lost after a few experiences and, I do believe, is never recovered. The stimulant properties are still there, and the eye-twitch and tooth-grinding are still there, and some of the warmth and comfortable interactions, but the magic is gone.

This is not tolerance from the pharmacological point of view. Tolerance is lost with time. I do not believe that this "magic" loss is itself ever recovered. It appears that, after a certain number of drug uses, the magic slips away. The exact number probably varies with the person.

Which brings up your second points, those regarding the reports that MDMA may be neurotoxic. Despite the extensive research that has been spent upon it, there is still no objective evidence that MDMA damages human nerves. But I certainly can't argue but that there are brain changes that could be assignable. Take this "loss of magic" thing. Some brain change has occurred, and it does not appear to be reversible. Is this evidence of "damage?" I don't think so, but I don't know. Change? Yes. We can never walk the same path twice so the assignment of responsibility, of causality, is uncertain. Definitions that would distinguish between damage and change might help.

-- Dr. Shulgin
 
Thanks for posting that it's very interesting. If it's the case that the feeling is never coming back, I might just explore MDA and Methylone a little (and I would like to try MMDA) and then give up on this class of drugs for good.
 
Since you started getting other reactions as soon as you switched from your first batch, it could also be a quality issue. Since both you and your girlfriend had the same reactions, my bet is that this thing is caused by bad quality MDMA (or "MDMA"), and not tolerance/loss of magic.

You say lab tested, did you send it to testing your self, or have people just told you that it's lab tested?

How did you test your other batches?
 
Personally I think that magic can come back. I think my very best time was perhaps my 4th or 5th and it was all about setting, and lack of pressure not the experience itself.

I was at a festival, I had a lot of good friends about, and I was very excited about the music I was going to see. I had drunk a couple of drinks, and smoked lightly...enough to put me at ease a little. Above all I was relaxed and excited before I started.

Since then I have thought a lot about the best times, and I think that while there must always be a degree of planning part of the problem is the weight of expectation. It is in itself sobering.
 
Someone I know (not in real life, online) bought the same batch from the same vendor (this was the last stuff I had), and sent it to a dutch lab analysis service and sent me the results. It said 96% purity with no active cuts. The batch before that I sent to a government testing service and it came back as just containing MDMA. I tested both those batches with marquis also and the one I didn't send off I just tested with marquis, that was the one that made us feel quite ill. My friends have all had pretty amazing times on the same stuff though, although I guess none of them seemed as amazed as I did by my first times, as it was their first times too mostly. I guess the difference is that I didn't personally test the first stuff. It felt the same, but just so much more immersive, magical, rich.. just felt a lot 'more'. I agree that the anticipation of doing it must contribute to killing it a little, but no matter how hard I try I find it impossible to not get very anxious about doing it for a few days prior.
 
There is no way of knowing that's the same batch. Even tho you bought it at the same time from the same vendor.

And marquis is a very limited test, that doesn't tell you anything other then whether or not your substance contain MDxx.

You won't get sick of MDMA, if you have a tolerance you just won't feel it. Same with loss of magic.
 
I know I can never be sure that the 96% pure stuff was the same batch, but I personally sent my sample to another lab and although they didn't analyse purity they did say it contained nothing but MDMA. I've sent samples of all the drugs I've bought off to this lab and not one has ever been anything other than what I wanted apart from some amphetamine which had caffeine in it which was from a different supplier. So I really have no reason to doubt the guy and my source is in my and others experiences absolutely impeccable, so I'm 99% sure it was the same sample (the vendor said it was too) and 100% that it wasn't cut. Like I said, there was only one batch of MDMA (the one that made us feel sick) that I tested with marquis alone and didn't send to the lab, and the first batch I tried that I didn't test was the one that had the magic to it. I don't think the issue is that I'm not getting MDMA.
 
The effects of substances are longer than their duration and downcomming. Especially your thoughts are the real dominant controllers for your neurons. Thoughts effect both sides of the synapse and how your neurons work, thoughts are also the mayor mastermind behind the MAO controller.

And thoughts are both conciouss and subconciouss. An experience of drugs, is added to your mindfullness and can effect the way you feel about stuff for very long periods of time.

Feelings and thoughts are by the most part in symbiosis. Like u want to watch a movie, your nervoussystem works to achive and reward you for your experience. What you expect is also sometimes not the correct outcome, excited for a moovie and after the show very depressed and dissapointed.

The perception of things is a total of all neurotransmitters, thoughts, and the avalibility of neurotransmitters. If you dont have enough seretonin, you might not feel the same motivation, while motivation could increase seretonin release. Its complicated. And thus.. It is possible, with your mix of different drugs you have changed the way you experience your neurotransmitters.

And by worse.. The Rhodiola which is a MAOI is not a good idea to mix in. Some users might experience something good about it, but the thing you have done is regulated the working space on different parts of your neurons. Which is not dangerous, if you dont feel any changes in yourself while sober and clean. Your genes will always work to revert into their original state. But the brain and nervous system takes a longer time.

If you want to MDMA. dont use it to frequent, and dont use other drugs between the experiences, what is okay to use is cannabis, amphetamines, and lsd and psilocobin. As they dont work against each other. I would recomend to not use tramadol or other special ssri's that work on the same receptors. Mdma works primarily on the seretonin receptors. Amphetamines on the dopamine. Primarily. And lsd works on a wider veriety of receptors but lsd dosnt work the same way as amphetamines or mdma. Tramadol works on the seretonin receptors.

Lsd changes the way you perciece things aswell as it increase levels of neurotransmitters without inhibiting the reuptake. Lsd is known to not harm you, but can change the way you percieve things forever. This is where i would call the difference of a bad trip, and a good trip.

Mdma makes your receptors release seratonin. And inhibits the reuptake. Benzos increase the tolerance of reaction in the synaptic cleft. Benzos are okay for comedown when overdose. But for recreational use not very smart. But can be a good experience for some. Benzos make you feel less, as the tolerance of reaction in the neuron is hightened, it needs a stronger impulse to send the information. While combined with mdma, the feelings of more stuff are dampened and seretonin reactions are there, i would say. For a pure mdma experience you would still need to experience yourself fully with all neurotransmitters. Seretonin left alone, is not very nice.

The MAO controller is a different story. The infomation of a neuron passes into the MAO before it says, hey seretonin, now you are gonna release this much seretonin. So using anything that is a MAOI especielly MEDICINES that are MAOI, will inhibit your maoi while the mdma is stressing your receptors, can lead to very bad changes inside your axons. And its know that excessive use of Maoi and ssri are very very dangerous. And MAOI are the last thing a doctor would want to prescribe.

Hope i given you some thoughts. Dont mix drugs that are a bad idea to mix.

Mdma today, 2cb tomorow,Rhodiola rest of the week, mdma next week.. Is not okay.

If you are gonna jump, genre of drugs. Wait 2 months. Be prepared with your thoughts. Have expectations. Dont expect the drug to give you the experience. Expect the experience. Not the drug <3

While drug hightens your perception of things, thought become more powerfull to affect you.

While on lsd, realizing connection between people, how to achive it etc is a good thing.. But for example if you realize, something wierd, like being watched or how society is trying to hurt you.. You might have a focus on ideas you dont really want. As said, experiences can cause trauma. Like being robbed by someone who has a mask, you might feel edgy everytime u see someone that wear a mask. Its not that the robbery damaged your brain. It changed your thoughts and how you experience them.

Drugs though, can alter your way of experiencing too withouth your permission of thoughts.
 
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Ok, so here's the story short, might be easier to find the culprit this way:

1) 125mg -- batch1 -- good experience
1 week break
2) 125mg+LSD-- batch1 -- good experience
1 month break
3) 140mg -- batch1 -- good experience
2 months break
4) 100mg -- batch2 -- bad xp, stomach pains
5 months break
5) 115mg -- batch2 -- sub par xp (high but sober thinking)
1 month break
6) ? mg -- batch3 -- gf had anxiety, otherwise could've been good xp
? months break
7) 85 mg -- batch3 -- sub par xp

I hope I got it right :)

Comments:
I think the 5th time is normal, it happened to me once too. I had great expectations for the night, that may have killed it. I was high but left the dancefloor wandering around, I felt disconnected from the vibe.
The 6th time you didn't mention the dose.
The 7th time it was the low dose perhaps. It was 30% less than 120mg which made you roll nicely.
Weed tends to bring out the psychedelic properties of MDMA, the visuals are reported from others too.
I'd be interested in your 2C-B related problems and what triggered them. The anxiety thing when you think of rolling is definitely a mental problem that can trigger even physical symptoms.
 
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Take a larger dose. I myself would definitely be getting subpar experiences too if i was only taking 85-115mg.. And that would explain why your first couple times were good, cuz they were larger doses.
 
Its good to have breaks. But what you are expecting is not the same thing as your feeling. Its known that drugs can give different experiences. Maby you are not spiritually ready. Or your somach is not in tune to melt down the substance. It a huge veriety of things. Mdma is not nice everytime ;p you can take mdma.. Have high seretonin in your blood.. But your body says, maaan im to tired for this. I dont want this. And thus, you dont get a good experience.

And i agree with cdilly. Tolerance does happen.

I would say, 150 - 200mg mdma is a good dose.

80mg is to low. If you weight 70kg.. 160mg is ideal. Didnt calculate now, but thats kind of what it is. Maby someone can post the mg/kg dosage for recreational use. I think its around 1.8mg per kilo.
 
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Just going to put out the negatives. Bk MDMA being rerocked with MDMA. MDMA synthesis being... of somewhat poor quality vs back in the day. MDMA being adulterated with a whole bunch of shit. As long as it fools the Marquis test (which is all most bother with) it's gold.

84% MDMA max purity is a joke. Thing is to make HCL from any free base you need to add equal molecular weight HCL to freebase. This applies to meth, cocaine, hell any amine etc. Your not adding 16% of HCL and that binds to the MDMA creating MDMA HCL. I've seen the BS sales pitch and I can say MDMA well made is over 84%. Find out the freebase weight of say meth and add the weight of HCL and then get the percentage meth- to HCL I think using this BS formula Meths max purity is in the 70% and cocaine is high 80%... enough said. Fuck this argument if you want to believe brown poo looking rocks of 84% MDMA are the SHIT... well think again.
 
mb-909 said:
Ask Dr. Shulgin Online

ARCHIVE: April 10, 2002

MDMA (Ecstasy) Tolerance

Dear Dr. Shulgin:

Can you explain to me why MDMA has what appears to be such a prolonged occurrence of tolerance? I've heard a bunch of my raver friends tell me they just don't roll as hard as they used to and I find it hard to believe this can simply be written off as a decrease in the quality of pills. Many of my friends even tell me the first few times they rolled were the best but they just don't feel the effects as much anymore.

I would feel a lot more confident in your assurances that MDMA isn't neurotoxic if I perceived a tolerance to MDMA that was similar to psilocybin or LSD...but I just don't. Can you help me out here Sasha? I'm worried!

-- Moecat



Dear Dr. Shulgin:
After my first 150 MDMA pills, with any MDMA pill I took the positive effects were very low and negative were high. I was still trying to get that loveable feeling but I get absolutely nothing but a nasty hangover. I quit for a couple of months then tried it again and nothing but an awful hangover...will I ever get the loveable feeling back or is it gone forever?

-- Specialist

Dear Moecat and Specialist:

I have combined your letters in that both of you are experiencing the same property that MDMA invokes with repeated usage, and you are both asking the same question looking for some explanation.

The property you are experiencing is what I call the loss of the magic of that first experience. My first experience with this drug was indeed magical. I was suddenly one with myself, one with the world; I was a person who had no secrets from himself and one who could trust others to be as honest with him as he was with himself. Almost everyone has a vivid recollection of his first experience. That is what I call the "magic." But that is usually lost after a few experiences and, I do believe, is never recovered. The stimulant properties are still there, and the eye-twitch and tooth-grinding are still there, and some of the warmth and comfortable interactions, but the magic is gone.

This is not tolerance from the pharmacological point of view. Tolerance is lost with time. I do not believe that this "magic" loss is itself ever recovered. It appears that, after a certain number of drug uses, the magic slips away. The exact number probably varies with the person.

Which brings up your second points, those regarding the reports that MDMA may be neurotoxic. Despite the extensive research that has been spent upon it, there is still no objective evidence that MDMA damages human nerves. But I certainly can't argue but that there are brain changes that could be assignable. Take this "loss of magic" thing. Some brain change has occurred, and it does not appear to be reversible. Is this evidence of "damage?" I don't think so, but I don't know. Change? Yes. We can never walk the same path twice so the assignment of responsibility, of causality, is uncertain. Definitions that would distinguish between damage and change might help.

-- Dr. Shulgin
Click to expand...

Damn, this is exactly what happened to me. I remember my first trip very clearly even though it was about 9 years ago, and I've never been able to get to that same magical state again no matter what I did. Even if I took a 2 year break or took over 10 at once, it was never as good as my first time when I only took 1.

I've always suspected that there is some kind of other tolerance even if you spaced out trips by even months or years. I simply saw it as the brain already knowing what to expect, or that it got use to the effects, so that it wouldn't ever be the same as the first time. Kind of like skydiving, where after the first time it's still scary and you get the adrenaline rush, but it's somewhat muted and none of the "holy shit!" anxiety.

I'm saddened that this doc passed away (and I think Hoffman did too a year ago or so). RIP.
 
I have rolled with 130 last time and it is as high as I am willing to go, it was pretty intense. Anyhow, it should be between 1,5-2,0mg/kg. For a 70kg person (like myself) it's between 105-140mg, so a dose of 115mg is ok for a roll in my book. The problem seems to be psychological.
 
Kl519 said:
Damn, this is exactly what happened to me. I remember my first trip very clearly even though it was about 9 years ago, and I've never been able to get to that same magical state again no matter what I did. Even if I took a 2 year break or took over 10 at once, it was never as good as my first time when I only took 1.

I've always suspected that there is some kind of other tolerance even if you spaced out trips by even months or years. I simply saw it as the brain already knowing what to expect, or that it got use to the effects, so that it wouldn't ever be the same as the first time. Kind of like skydiving, where after the first time it's still scary and you get the adrenaline rush, but it's somewhat muted and none of the "holy shit!" anxiety.

I'm saddened that this doc passed away (and I think Hoffman did too a year ago or so). RIP.
Click to expand...
Haha, yes, skydiving is a good example ! Actually for me all my rolls (except one) was just like the first time. 5 rolls spaced 1-2 months apart.
Btw, Hoffmann passed away in '08 at the age of 102 and Shulgin this year at the age of 88.
 
myr said:
Haha, yes, skydiving is a good example ! Actually for me all my rolls (except one) was just like the first time. 5 rolls spaced 1-2 months apart.
Btw, Hoffmann passed away in '08 at the age of 102 and Shulgin this year at the age of 88.
Click to expand...

Ah, I see, I wasn't sure when he passed but I heard about how he lived til 102 (was arguing with someone that thought you could die on lsd, where it's bad for your health...and pointed out the "creator" lived that long. Smh. I'm assuming he took his own substance a lot). Yeah, rolling use to be my fave past time, but that magic never came back for me. I'm envious but happy for those who were able to keep it. It makes me remember my own experience when I see someone peaking like crazy, lol.
 
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