LilbabiC
Bluelighter
What one person finds to be physically attractive the next person may not. There is no set standard for what's considered attractive. Like the old saying goes "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"
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SLR Moderators: Senior Staff
Why do you care about physical attractiveness in a relationship?
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HoneyRoastedPeanut
Bluelighter
As one who has their own standard of attractiveness (and Megan Fox/other models not being close to my ideal), I view attractiveness as a way of testing compatibility on an immediate timeframe, that split-second that makes you stop and consider someone in the first place. Really, it's our bodies and not our minds that make this connection, so if my body doesn't respond on at least some level, it's not going to accept what my logical brain is saying that I should want.
Once initial attraction is established, though, I'm basically satisfied and everything else becomes the real deciding factors. I think it's when you constantly have greater expectations of physical attractiveness, for example "well they look great, but what if they don't meet my standard in this or that respect once I get to know them better?", that it becomes more about your own shallowness than the real physical connection brought by attraction itself.
Once initial attraction is established, though, I'm basically satisfied and everything else becomes the real deciding factors. I think it's when you constantly have greater expectations of physical attractiveness, for example "well they look great, but what if they don't meet my standard in this or that respect once I get to know them better?", that it becomes more about your own shallowness than the real physical connection brought by attraction itself.
MyFinalRest - the universal standard for beauty is symmetry. while there may be individual preferences for eye or hair color, you're going to be more attracted to someone with a symmetrical face. additionally, since you "understand this shit", it might be wise to actually read the numerous studies and articles pertaining to the relationship between beauty and genetics. i've gotten you started:
The Science of Attraction: What makes a beautiful face?
Do facial averageness and symmetry signal health?
Looking Good: The Psychology and Biology of Beauty
Mixed Race, Pretty Face?
Secrets of Beauty and Attractiveness Revealed
that's not to say there aren't other factors involved during mate selection. though, i think many could make the point that you'll notice you're physically attracted to another person WAY before knowing if you like the way the person smells (per the wiki portion you quoted) or any of the other criteria (whether it be biological or otherwise) that appeal to you.
to answer the OP's question: sex is an important, pair-bonding experience to me and thus, in order to have sexual attraction, there must be physical attraction.
The Science of Attraction: What makes a beautiful face?
Do facial averageness and symmetry signal health?
Looking Good: The Psychology and Biology of Beauty
Mixed Race, Pretty Face?
Secrets of Beauty and Attractiveness Revealed
that's not to say there aren't other factors involved during mate selection. though, i think many could make the point that you'll notice you're physically attracted to another person WAY before knowing if you like the way the person smells (per the wiki portion you quoted) or any of the other criteria (whether it be biological or otherwise) that appeal to you.
to answer the OP's question: sex is an important, pair-bonding experience to me and thus, in order to have sexual attraction, there must be physical attraction.
MyFinalRest
Bluelighter
Oh I'm well aware of the symmetry and racial diversity concepts.
I even checked out your articles.
I still think human beauty is still quite a bit more complicated than symmetry and genetic diversity. People want solid explanations for phenomena such as physical attraction, but so far, there really isn't one IMO.
Still there is too much room for doubt left in the symmetry explanation because quite simply, I don't even notice minor deficits of symmetry and am looking for much much more in a face than that.
I've seen some very diversly mixed people that I found just simply unattractive too.
Trying to "scientifically" explain something like someone's personal taste is just going fall flat and "confound" the situation even more. Those articles you posted still fail to provide me with a standard to measure beauty or explanation for it. Enjoy the mystery. It's mysteriousness is truly a grand part of what makes admiration of beautiful people and things so splendid!
So far, I think this 1757 treatise still does a better job than anything these modern day charlatans can come up with.
I even checked out your articles.
I still think human beauty is still quite a bit more complicated than symmetry and genetic diversity. People want solid explanations for phenomena such as physical attraction, but so far, there really isn't one IMO.
Still there is too much room for doubt left in the symmetry explanation because quite simply, I don't even notice minor deficits of symmetry and am looking for much much more in a face than that.
I've seen some very diversly mixed people that I found just simply unattractive too.
Trying to "scientifically" explain something like someone's personal taste is just going fall flat and "confound" the situation even more. Those articles you posted still fail to provide me with a standard to measure beauty or explanation for it. Enjoy the mystery. It's mysteriousness is truly a grand part of what makes admiration of beautiful people and things so splendid!
So far, I think this 1757 treatise still does a better job than anything these modern day charlatans can come up with.
wizekrak
Bluelight Crew
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Looks are important to me. A girl doesn't have to be a knockout but she has to fulfill enough of my physical requirements in a mate for me to be satisfied, otherwise I know I'll just keep looking for someone who meets or exceeds my threshold for satiation. While there are many women I can find attractive there are only a handful that I've seen that make me think "god damn". But those women aren't usually the type stereotypically coveted by mainstream society.
Very well stated
Methadone84
Bluelighter
How did i not win this thread yet?
Nothing is random.
No such thing as randomness.
Name one thing that you know is random.
Nothing can happen unless its caused.
Example, the throw of a die, a human is unable to predict what it lands on, and so calls it random.
However the dice lands according to the sum of all the forces acting apon it, the tilt of the hand, the breath of air, its weight, so on, because obviously all of its movement comes from things acting apon it, causing its movements.
Therefore if you had godlike knowledge of the exact forces and interactions at play, you would be able to predict the throw of a die, everytime.
Attraction in humans, as well as other emotions, feelings and thoughts, are exactly the same.
While the underlying causes are multiple, differing, and complex beyond our ability to predict, they are not random.
All things that happen have a physical, non random, cause, even if science doesnt understand all of that cause, therefore physical attraction obeys these unknown and known physical rules.
You dont choose who you are attracted to, you just are. (And anyway choice itself is deterministic, because nothing can happen without a cause, so something must cause your choice, therefore despite the fact that it feels like YOU are making a free choice, it is nothing of the sort)
But nor is it random. Random things CANNOT exist, because if something is not caused, then how does it come to be so?
Your unconcious mind crunches a string of data from your senses and your body, and if everything adds up, you feel varying degrees of attraction.
Everything can be explained through natural and physical interactions of forces and matter, and Science doesnt cause this, it just finds out about it.
MyFinalRest
Bluelighter
Okay, you win!
I think personal experience and perception leads to people making real choices about who they are attracted to. You will obviously end up associating certain physical characteristics with memories of experiences - you can't simply seperate the two can you?
A shitty personality can make a pretty girl seem ugly too.
Likewise, outside pressures (like other's opinions and media opinions) can influence who you think is hot too. As for the rest of it, who knows...why do you care?
Well Africanus what you say about "nothing being random" just might be true, but also as you said, nobody has this super fucking "godlike" knowledge to accurately predict anything so to us normal humans, it can't seem anything else but random.
The point is that our genes determine who we find attractive, yeah sure some minor things are set by environmental factors, but all the major choices (like species, gender, health, so on), are set by our genes.
Our genes are honed by millions of years of evolution of survival of the fittest, they dont program us do stuff for no reason.
We are attracted to the best matches for us.
There is also a little thing called settling, for a less desirable but more obtainable match.
A bird in the hand....
Our unconscious makes these calculations for us constantly.
We are organic robots.
MyFinalRest
Bluelighter
^Fucking prove it!
I agree that the differentiation between attractive and unattractive is something that is done by our bodies and is a mostly subconscious process. But just because it's subconscious doesn't mean it has no real causes, there is a science behind everything, and the standards of symmetry and beauty are mathematical. Just because it seems like a random mystery to us doesn't mean that it is objectively, we just don't have the time to perform all our functions on the conscious level, so like 90% of what we do or why we do it is unconscious, just to save time.
And while we might disagree about who are the most attractive (of those who meet the standards of attactiveness) most would be able to agree who can be put in the attractive and unattractive categories. The ones who prefer fat or ugly people are more like freaks and it doesn't have anything to do with what the majority thinks. A fat woman would have to wait a long time for someone who prefers someone like her, and then you could say that it's purely subjective. Yes, it can be, but only rarely so how much does it count for?
There's also a difference between beauty and physical attractiveness. While the judgement of physical attractiveness is more something the body or physical brain makes, the love of beauty belongs more to the soul and can generate powerful feelings of love, just made by the combination of beauty and the human consciousness alone. Like when you're going to choose a kitten, you will most likely fall in love with the most beautiful one and feel it will give you more joy.
And while we might disagree about who are the most attractive (of those who meet the standards of attactiveness) most would be able to agree who can be put in the attractive and unattractive categories. The ones who prefer fat or ugly people are more like freaks and it doesn't have anything to do with what the majority thinks. A fat woman would have to wait a long time for someone who prefers someone like her, and then you could say that it's purely subjective. Yes, it can be, but only rarely so how much does it count for?
There's also a difference between beauty and physical attractiveness. While the judgement of physical attractiveness is more something the body or physical brain makes, the love of beauty belongs more to the soul and can generate powerful feelings of love, just made by the combination of beauty and the human consciousness alone. Like when you're going to choose a kitten, you will most likely fall in love with the most beautiful one and feel it will give you more joy.
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Simple:
Nothing can happen without something to cause it, else what makes it happen.
There, proven.
MyFinalRest
Bluelighter
^That's real good Africanus.
Ninae, I still differ, I think it is a highly conscious thing. What could be more distracting to your mind than seeing someone who's attractive? Certain aspects of basic sexual arousal certianly seem to be subconscious, but physical attractiveness is about more than just sex.
Your body is not subconsciously aware of anything mathematical such as symmetry. You can look at a side view of a face, where it is impossible to discern frontal symmetry and still be attracted.
I highly don't think we are subconciously aware of our genetics too. We are only consciously aware of this scientific concept after many years of rigorous scientific exploration and discoveries. When I see pretty girl and she thinks I'm pretty too, I don't really think we are having a subconscious genetic conversation. Whatever I (or anybody else) can tell about a person by looking at them is very, very limited.
Ninae, I still differ, I think it is a highly conscious thing. What could be more distracting to your mind than seeing someone who's attractive? Certain aspects of basic sexual arousal certianly seem to be subconscious, but physical attractiveness is about more than just sex.
Your body is not subconsciously aware of anything mathematical such as symmetry. You can look at a side view of a face, where it is impossible to discern frontal symmetry and still be attracted.
I highly don't think we are subconciously aware of our genetics too. We are only consciously aware of this scientific concept after many years of rigorous scientific exploration and discoveries. When I see pretty girl and she thinks I'm pretty too, I don't really think we are having a subconscious genetic conversation. Whatever I (or anybody else) can tell about a person by looking at them is very, very limited.
Of course your sub conscious is not aware of your genes, not to be insulting but even to suggest that I am suggesting such a thing, is moronic.
I thinks you need a better grounding in how genes actually work, and not whatever fantasyland material you've been taught/learned from gods knows where.
We are machines made of hydrocarbons and calcium, with water as the lubricant for the microscopic moving parts. Our genes are the programming that determines how this machine is made.
Genes determine the makeup of our brain.
Genes include software which runs on our brains, eg: instincts just like animals, instincts are programs running on the computers that are our brains.
These pre installed software, called I suppose our personality or behavioral traits, both determined by genes and environmental influences, completely determine anyones makeup, animals, and the human animal alike.
Love.
Perception of beauty.
All emotions and even conscious thought itself.
The brain doesn't communicate with the genes for this effect anymore than a round hole communicates with the square shape that it cannot fit.
It just does what it has to do by the physical strictures in place.
MyFinalRest
Bluelighter
No, were're not machines. Well, some people come close, and that's called autism.
Genes determine a basic recipe for your physical makeup. They do not control our destiny or the choices we make. You are shaming real science by trying to liken genetics to pre-installed software. But, maybe people like you are different from me.
Maybe you don't actually have the ability to make decisions in life and instead, you follow simple impulses in your brain. If that's true, you have become so de-evolved that you are lesser being than my dog. You operate on the level of bacteria.
The Scientism going on here is quite frankly, disgusting. Trying to reduce all human actions into things that can currently be explained or measured is not really a subsitute for true understanding. There are limits to human understanding, and i'm sorry it's so painful for you to face up to it.
Genes determine a basic recipe for your physical makeup. They do not control our destiny or the choices we make. You are shaming real science by trying to liken genetics to pre-installed software. But, maybe people like you are different from me.
Maybe you don't actually have the ability to make decisions in life and instead, you follow simple impulses in your brain. If that's true, you have become so de-evolved that you are lesser being than my dog. You operate on the level of bacteria.
The Scientism going on here is quite frankly, disgusting. Trying to reduce all human actions into things that can currently be explained or measured is not really a subsitute for true understanding. There are limits to human understanding, and i'm sorry it's so painful for you to face up to it.
No, I'm afraid you're the one who doesn't get it. I'm not saying that to argue, but just because you seem to be looking at this in the wrong way. Some people prefer things to remain a mystery, but I can't relate to that as I don't like being kept in the dark about anything, I just assume there must be something for them to gain from it. Either way, I don't really care as I feel people are generally better served learning how things work. If you don't like that you could also just ignore it when someone else are trying to accomplish something like that.
Either way, we were only talking about the human body and how it works and not the human soul. If you prefer to focus on that perspective you can also do that. But the human soul is still limited by the human body as a biochemical machine to some degree, by our chemical processes, by the brain and nervous system. Otherwise there would be no fascination with various chemicals. They can obviously produce profound emotions and has a strong effect on the human being, even if they "only" work on our body. And if real emotions can originate in the body why can't also feelings of attraction to another body, or even another personality, originate in the body? You don't know how much of your feelings for the opposite sex comes from you as an individual consciousness and how much of it is a result of instincts hardwired into your genes. This also goes for strong feelings of love and higher-level emotions (because those feelings are a part of our biology).
Of course you are not consciously aware WHAT makes someone attractive, you are only aware THAT you find them attractive. People generally aren't able to point out the small differences between a symmetrical and unsymmetrical face with their normal consciousness, but that doesn't mean they're not there or can't be seen and measured out. The rules of symmetry are quite streightforward, although symmetry is only one aspect of beauty, but all other things being equal someone with better symmetry will be more pleasent to look at.
Either way, we were only talking about the human body and how it works and not the human soul. If you prefer to focus on that perspective you can also do that. But the human soul is still limited by the human body as a biochemical machine to some degree, by our chemical processes, by the brain and nervous system. Otherwise there would be no fascination with various chemicals. They can obviously produce profound emotions and has a strong effect on the human being, even if they "only" work on our body. And if real emotions can originate in the body why can't also feelings of attraction to another body, or even another personality, originate in the body? You don't know how much of your feelings for the opposite sex comes from you as an individual consciousness and how much of it is a result of instincts hardwired into your genes. This also goes for strong feelings of love and higher-level emotions (because those feelings are a part of our biology).
Of course you are not consciously aware WHAT makes someone attractive, you are only aware THAT you find them attractive. People generally aren't able to point out the small differences between a symmetrical and unsymmetrical face with their normal consciousness, but that doesn't mean they're not there or can't be seen and measured out. The rules of symmetry are quite streightforward, although symmetry is only one aspect of beauty, but all other things being equal someone with better symmetry will be more pleasent to look at.
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Good post.
However do we really consciously freely decide anything ever?
Thoughts are biochemical reactions, physical things.
We know all physical things must be caused.
So if external and internal states and factors, like drugs for example, cause your emotions thoughts and therefore ultimately your decisions, this means free will is an illusion.
We are free to do as we will, but our will is not free.
Our subconscious crunches all the numbers with its software, potentials increase in the correct neural pathways, then walla a thought of decision bubbles up into your conscious mind and you THINK YOU MADE A DESCISION!!!