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Why do we have government?

Well said Sgt...
For many it is hard to make themselves think 'outside the box'...
It's a matter of applying concepts to life, and being able to ignore everything you've been taught and trully figuring things out from the raw materials at hand.
 
Originally posted by SgtD82:
Maybe i'm not being clear enough...
I guess what it comes down to is this...is government a necessity? No. Would existence cease to be if there were no governments? No. Would we be better off in many ways if we had never had government (which never could have happened)? Yes. Would we appreciate and see fit with doing only with that which matters? More than likely. Would we have the filthy society which we have today? I'm willing to bet not.

I'm not trying to patronize you, but is this opening statement an answer to my question or just evasive personal conjecture?
I would greatly appreciate a more clear and succinct answer to the simple question I previously posted.
Click to expand...
 
Freedom is never free, the politics of ecstasy are theese...
If we take a step back, and realize
Our world can be a perfect world, can be a perfect world...
-warrel dane
It is relavent if you find the connection. There is a reason not many people enter this forum...most of the time it requires thought.
nice!
Click to expand...
 
Well, this hypothetical postulation is a wonderful exercise in thinking, even if it will probably never be implemented on a global scale by any of its supporters.
I suppose the real trick then is to know that even if you do not buy into the system, that you are still an integral part of it and that the MAN/Machine of government can not truly control or diminish your own sense of spiritual independence and moral self guidance.
Fortunately, your probation is only a sentence with a finite time that you must only wait patiently through, before being ultimately released.
:)
A good friend of mine, after discussing this with me in some detail offline, thinks this subject is not even worth the discourse, but I disagree, as I have come away from all of this with a sense that my own ideas of unjust persecution and frustration with the thought control imposed upon many peoples thinking outside of the box are not completely unique to me or unfounded in reality.
Plus, I can always use more practice in organizing my thoughts into more cohesive and lengthy streams.
:D
~cheers~
[ 11 July 2002: Message edited by: Noodle ]
 
Setarcos and RainChild...as I said in my previous post...a society without government in all likelyhood would never have happened.
Hehe...Noodle...that was supposed to be an answer. Air, water, and food are necessities. Government is not. The way I define a necessity is to see whether or not life will continue without it. Nice last post thought ;)
I think many misread my previous post and therefore missed its meaning.
 
"Setarcos and RainChild...as I said in my previous post...a society without government in all likelyhood would never have happened."
Do you? I just read through it and couldn't find anywhere where you said that. Show it to me and I am very prepared to apologise for not reading your post thoroughly.
 
Originally posted by SgtD82:
Would we be better off in many ways if we had never had government (which never could have happened)? Yes.
[ 11 July 2002: Message edited by: SgtD82 ]
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Heh, ok I have to say I just glossed over what was in brackets earlier, sorry.
thanks for edit :) , thanks noodle :D
[ 11 July 2002: Message edited by: Setarcos ]
 
^
Some intelligent people let their Ego's get the best of them.
Don't even sweat it mate.
Tact, composure, and personal control all come with increased age and experiance.
 
Hehe...sorry actually I glossed over yours in your apology for not seeing it. Oops. And Noodle...yes those are some of my weaknesses. Hopefully with further practice I will be able to better channel my energy.
[ 11 July 2002: Message edited by: SgtD82 ]
 
is this social? apologees are cool but please try to add content to the thread in the same post.
resources required to live and prosper on this planet are not uniformly distributed acrossed its surface and we are creatures of the local. Governments define a way of distributing resources acrossed a land mass to serve the needs of the governed - and a way of controlling the use of said resources by the individual.
by this government is required to support a population acrossed varied local conditions - but i assert it is not required to support an individual in an environment that suites all the needs of the individual
 
Couldn't this be accomplished by trade? Proper management would come in one of two ways:
1. People would just realize that the vast majority of resources are in effect limited, and in order to preserve them for future generations they must regulate their use/consumption. This is not likely considering the seven deadly sins.
2. Lessons learned through mismanagement of resources...most everyone dies. The lesson is learned and eventually when things balance out they will properly distribute/manage the resources on their own.
[ 11 July 2002: Message edited by: SgtD82 ]
 
Setarcos and RainChild...as I said in my previous post...a society without government in all likelyhood would never have happened.
he is right, however it doenst HAVE TO BE THAT WAY, which was my point...as well as Sgt's
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Sgrtd82:
in response to what you've said...
your basically saying that the things the government does do for us which maybe useful are not necessary for life. I agree. Food shelter are the only true necessities and of course someone to procreate with to keep the species going.
I firmly believe that humans cannot and would not reach there full potential with out an organized government. I dont recall the govt. ever seeking out individuals that chose to live the life of a recluse and not participate in the governed society. So you do have a choice, you always have a choice on how you want to live. If you choose to live in a society, which you clearly are choosing,(how else would you be posting now? internet does not come from nature) then you often times have to sacrifice some things in order to obtain the things you do value such as saftey, education and affluence. If there were no government would things be better than if there was a hypothetical un-corrupt government that served to protect its citizens human rights and did not act in ways to advance the interests of those with the most money? I believe the obvious answer would be society would benefit from this type of system and those that rejected money and whatnot always have the choice to travel to the middle of nowhere and do as they please without the harrassment of the govt. It depends on your view of life, you only live once so would i rather spend my life struggling to make ends meet living off the land or would I prefer doing things that make me the happiest, none of which include working all day just to survive. So the government is a tool for me, assisting myself and others in the ability to live their lives as they wish and be as happy as they wish 2 b.
to deny affluence as an important aspect of ourlives is utter nonsense. Art, books and all other creations of the human intellect were created because there was liesure time. time to sit and ponder ideas and discus things with other individuals. How can you have time for the arts and whatnot when you work all day hunting for food ect... The government resulted in people to attain the bassic neccisties food/shelter without dedicating every waking moment to the task. I can goto the store and buy a tent and food and I'd have until my food supply ran out to spend my time developing ideas, creating things inventing things, having fun, reading books. It all leads back to a government. I am not willing to sacrifice all that crap, as superfulous as you may think it is, just because its not "necessary" for me to live. So all in all as corrupt and unjust as every government is and will be, as long as I am able to persue my most of the things which make me happy, I will continue to be a part of society and support government.
if none of that is your cup of tea or you idea of a good life then perhaps you should practice what you preach and abandon society(first things first get off of bluelight!) with a group of followers and retreat to a seculded wilderness where you can be free from the constrains that you feel the government places on you.
 
governed bodies can give the individual the power of the group - for constructive or destructive purposes.
 
I think fundamentally, the reason why we have government, even on the smaller scale tribal level, is because humans are social creatures. We rely on one another for self-regulation since we are not skilled enough to survive solo. A lot of people will counter that and say "I can survive solo." Maybe you can... but everything you use, all your tools, your equipment, your food, your resources, more often than not initially come from civilization or were handed down to you by other humans. Humans don't tend to survive alone forever.

So, because we are social, we must be interact. Because we interact and have different opinions on things and which values are more important, chaos can occur. We appoint government (or government appoints itself by force) to dictate, organize and enforce values in order to reduce chaos and produce order. It also forces a group of people to cooperate, despite their differences, otherwise groups would splinter into far more vulnerable individuals, or they would be in-fighting.

Think about how much discussion it takes for a group of five people to reach consensus. Now multiply that by orders of magntitude... by 10, then 100, then 1000, then a million. I think it was the Dunbar study which suggested that 150 people is the ideal size of a community for good social cohesion. Beyond that, reaching consensus is almost impossible without a governing body. So the group appoints leaders to make important decisions, sacrificing some of their freedom and agreeing to the rule of law, in exchange for an administration that will make its sole purpose the regulation and governing of society.

Government limits your freedom, but at the same time it gives you freedom that would otherwise be curtailed by all the time it would take for all of the social actors to organize themselves. Freedom is exchanged for a sub-group to focus on organizing more highly complex systems, which makes life better for everyone.

I do realize the flaw of what I'm saying though... which is that when we are born, we're not really given a choice about who governs us. They just do. Democracy tries to offset this a bit, but it's not ideal. I don't agree with some earlier posters in this thread who say that religion is responsible for governance. Most tribal societies are not governed by religion, but by the eldest people, and they are appointed for their lived wisdom.
 
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