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  • PD Moderators: Esperighanto | JackARoe |

why do plants produce alkaloids?

One: They don't have zero mescaline, just not enough to make a 75kg human trip. Think about how the small quantities of mescaline in a young peyote button would effect a jackrabbit, though. Much smaller than you, much more likely to be effected by a smaller quantity.

Mescaline production occurs constantly. The older the plant gets, the more it collects.

Notice how there seem to be almost no animals that eat peyote as a regular part of their diet. I wonder why that is?
 
You're missing the point. The older plants contains massively more mescaline. Older plants are much less likely to be eaten by predators. If the mescaline was a defence against predators it would NOT carry on producing it as the threat from predators decreased.

Think about how the small quantities of mescaline in a young peyote button would effect a jackrabbit, though.

Do jackrabbits eat cacti?

And remember, mescaline isn't a poison. To kill a jackrabbit with mescaline it would have to eat an awful lot of cactus. And you're assuming animals don't enjoy tripping. There are cases of sheep targeting psilocybin mushrooms exclusively to the exclusion of all other food sources and running around having a great time.

Notice how there seem to be almost no animals that eat peyote as a regular part of their diet. I wonder why that is?

Because it's a small tough cactus? Do animals eat small tough cacti that don't contain mescaline?
 
And remember, mescaline isn't a poison. .


Mescaline isnt a poison to you or I, because we'd have a grand time on it. I doubt lower herbivores would feel the same. We don't consider the capscaicin in peppers a poision for the same reason... but it definately wards off predators.


And you're assuming animals don't enjoy tripping. There are cases of sheep targeting psilocybin mushrooms exclusively to the exclusion of all other food sources and running around having a great time


I've never heard of this. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but Id like to see something written on it (not being an ass, i would enjoyu readin it).

However, there are probably more reports of sheep eating phalaris grass and getting the "staggers," and dying from compounds in it (DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, bufotenine). There have been low-alkaloid content phalaris grasses breed specifically for this reason. We don't really consider these poisons, with the possible exception of bufotenine... and that is debatable. They seem to be doing a good job of defending the grass against sheep, though.

Do jackrabbits eat cacti?


No that I'm aware of. But food is scarce in the deserts, as is water. Other animals eat cacti. Larger cacti obviously represent a larger food/water source. So, it would make sense that they have more alkakoid if it is defensive. They can be spotted easier. They cannot run and hide. Smaller cacti probably evolved smaller forms at least in part because they are harder to see, and thus eat.
 
Quite a few animals eat psychoactives knowingly. I wish I knew more examples, but for example, reindeer commonly eat amanitas. If you look it up, you'll find many animals eat certain psychoactives. Some plants/fungi evolved psychoactives because it aids in spreading the seeds, reproduction.

Also about the claim against these alkaloids just occuring pointlessly, perhaps these chemicals are vestigal remains of other chemicals. Maybe in some cases, the "parent" chemical was not psychoactive. Other cases, they may be byproducts of their metabolism. Pointless, but still there. We have no use for the acne you see on some people. But it occurs.

Also, as you said small and tough cacti aren't eaten, it could be because animals recognize the psychoactivity of certain small and tough cacti, and them being undesirable to the animals, they avoid all cacti resembling the psychoactive cacti. An example of this kind of evolution, benefitting from another species, is a certain snake (king snake I believe, but im not sure about the name at all) that has red/orange, yellow, and black bands. It is extremely poisonous and animals avoid it. There is another species of snake with red/orange, yellow, and black bands but is not at all poisonous. Still, animals avoid it.
 
Yeah, I don't really buy that most of the naturally occuring 5-HT2A agonists are their for their deterent properties. Firstly, they're not really poisoness enough.
They also don't -tend- to be at very high concentrations.
They're also not usually concentrated in the way that natural poisons are, around fruits, seeds and flowers.

I also think it's interesting that most of these compounds are very similiar to amino acids, and there are only a couple of enzymatic steps needed to get from the expected amino acids (or their corrisponding amino), to the hallucinogenic drug. The production of DMT is a classic example. Tryptamine is a naturally occuring molecule, N-methyl-transferase is a naturally occuring enzyme. When they bump into each other, you get DMT.

Indeed, if our expression of the metabolic enzyme CYP2D6 got changed so that we had significant amounts in our neurons, it is quite possible that we could endogenously form 4-HO-DMT.
 
What do you think is the evolutionary advantage to having such alkaloids, if you do not think they are defensive?

I cant really think of anything else, unless animals wishing to eat them to get high propagated the organism somehow... which I don't really see happening, in general. Cattle definately spread spores around, but I just don't see them eating enough mushrooms to get any effects.

As far as DMT synthesis occuring by chance in plants due to its simplicity... I'll buy that. Its a small enough mutation to happen relatively quickly. But what of more complex chemicals like salvinorin?
 
Well I'd have to know about the biochemical synthetic route of salvinorins to comment.

When it comes to most tryptamines (excluding toad alkaloids) and phenethylamines, I reckon its a fluke, or more accurately, that the enzymes are needed for something else and that these products are side effects.
 
"These chemicals aren't poisons" is a bit

They aren't OUTRIGHT poisonous, but they're definitely dangerous to an unsuspecting animal. A tripping animal is a vulnerable animal. A vulnerable animal is a fucking dead animal in the wild.

All (or at least almost all) desert herbivores are very small. Anything that WOULD eat a peyote button would end up feeling effects, and in such a disoriented state would be vulnerable to a predator's attack. That can't be denied.

Also, another thing. Let's assume the animal survives the experience. What would anyone here say the odds are of a small desert rodent having a great time while tripping are? Rodents are pretty jumpy, and even a human has a pretty high chance of getting freaked out if unknowingly dosed with psychedelics. He is unlikely to eat that cactus again, I would say (if he makes the connection, although I'd imagine those that didn't would die rather quickly. natural selection at work.)
 
I have a slightly different idea.

These compounds are (IMO) spiritual catalysts for humans. Perhaps the plants that produce them spiritually benefit from them as well?
 
It could be scientifically sound, assuming he has gathered evidence of a spirit, and also evidence that the human spirit can be affected by the ingestion of psychoactives. Of course, said evidence hasn't been gathered by ANYONE, so nevermind.

Regardless, jamshyd, do me a favor. I want you to look up Ocaam's Razor. I want you, whenever coming up with ideas, to do your best to make them <i>fit</i> ocaam's razor.

I promise it will make you sound like less of a loony.
 
The Weekly World News. October 3, 1989. Page 43.


SHEEP EAT LSD AND GO BONKERS!


Sheep are tripping like Woodstock hippies thanks to a crop of hallucinogenic mushrooms that sprouted on islands off the coast of Scotland.

Authorities say the animals can't resist the mushrooms, which contain a natural type of LSD and cause them to hallucinate for hours.

According to reports, the sheep:

*Stumble and fall like drunks.

*Run in terror from imaginary predators.

*Wander into roads and refuse to move, even for speeding traffic.

*Have lost all interest in sex.

Walk sideways and backwards, bleating crazily.

*Won't eat anything but mushrooms even though they have no nutritional value and taste like old leather.



The sheep even let other barnyard animals like chickens, roost on their backs without flinching.

"They're wrecked," Dr. Phillip Johnston of the North of Scotland Agriculture College, told reporters.

I have never seen sheep behave like this/ They're litterally out of their minds.

"But as long as the mushrooms are growing, the sheep are going to eat them. They must like the way they feel when they're tripping.

"They act crazy -- but they look like they're having a good time."

Shepherds alerted authorities after their herds began to behave strangely in August.

Animal experts traced the problems to the mushrooms, which grow wild and in great numbers in the Shetland Islands when weather conditions are right.

"In a few more weeks the mushrooms will be gone and the sheep will return to normal," said Dr. Johnston. "In the meantime, the shephers are going to have to keep a close eye on their flocks.

"As long as they're under the influence of drugs, they're in danger of hurting themselves."
To the right center is the photograph which came with the above article.
 
They aren't OUTRIGHT poisonous, but they're definitely dangerous to an unsuspecting animal.

To be honest I don't think many animals are interested in eating small tough cacti with little nutritional value. The main threat to peyote and san pedro are scale insects belonging to the superfamily Coccoidea, and nematodes who lay their eggs in the cacti.
 
Authorities say the animals can't resist the mushrooms, which contain a natural type of LSD and cause them to hallucinate for hours.


wtf. Jesus christ that kind of thing irritates me.

Sheep are pretty dumb though, as far as animals go. I wish i had the article I read on the phalaris grass. Maybe I'll see if i can dig it up and edit this post.
 
There's a book out on animals and intoxicants - says there are countless examples of animals seeking out plants that alter their consciousness.
 
It's also the weakly world news, hardly a reliable source.

Meanwhile, just because an animal seeks out a drug, it doesn't mean it likes it.
Two examples:
-Humans and life long heroin addiction.
-Worms/fruit flys for cocaine or alcohol. I normally get flamed for this one, but a worm (with a total of like 1000 brain cells), or a fruit fly (with maybe 10-100 times that), doesn't hav ea conciousness, or even anything resembling one, and hence can't -like- anything. Now I know I can't say that for sure, but come on...
 
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A good mystery to ponder:
Why does the Iboga plants produce both Ibogaine AND MAOIs in their roots??

That mystery seems to be deeply rooted, pun intended.
 
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