Why did we stop inventing gods?

[Jabberwocky]

I'm still stuck at the statement that gnostic Christians saw Jesus as an vile and immoral demiurge. I gather with a username like yours you've studied Gnosticism a fair bit, but my story doesn't match yours. the few self proclaimed gnostic Christians I spoke to had only nice things to say of Jesus. Jesus attained gnosis of his divine origin and taught it to others during dark times. They could disambiguate message and messenger. I like what Philip k. Dick the writer had to say about it: http://montalk.net/PKD_principles.html

Mankind likes to deify things, everyone here seems to agree with that, and to some Jesus became a god outright, but perhaps you are speaking too broadly of what Gnostics actually believe as if they were one harmonious group with a consistent perspective. Your take on this does not compute. Feel free to elaborate.

 

[belligerent drunk]

Yeah that's what I was thinking also. We just have strange new gods that don't seem like gods but serve at least some of the same functions/purposes. Like we may worship science or something along those lines.

People who worship science and/or call it a religion, are misguided, and do not understand the basics of the scientific method. Science is not a religion - it's just our best attempt to describe the physical world. But a lot of people don't understand that.

I've even heard religious people calling some proponents of scientific theories such as evolution, "evolutionists" or "Darwinists" as if it's a religion. It is not. It's just how we explain, based on evidence we found so far, the diversification and history of life.

Fuck this subject annoys me somewhat.

The only belief you have to uphold in science is "believe it when I see it". As in, you prove hypotheses by showing that something works or is in a certain way, and that which can be detected with our senses. The rest just follows logically.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

When I said science could be someone's religion I did not mean science is sneaky of itself but rather traditionally we don't see it as a religious belief system.

Theists do apply that label to science, as the ultimate belief of non-theists, but I agree that it is a poor label as science continues to evolve while gods do not.

Largely because religion/mythology was a means to explain life in a world when our scientific understanding could not make meaning of.

No argument on this.

tldr science killed God

Indeed. Science and archeology.

Rather than seeing that one God is behind everything, and seeing everything as part of a whole, the world was divided into many other Gods in order to explain phenomena that have a singular Divine origin.

Except that nothing can be proven to have a divine origin. Only those with faith can delude themselves into thinking there is a divine connection.

I don't see it as a science vs. God thing, because there was science before there was science; rather, it is an evolution in understanding of the creative force and intelligent principle behind the universe.

Intelligent design was soundly defeated in court when the religious tried to use lies as facts.

Monotheist cultures tend to be a step forward from polytheistic ones, in a general way... though I've found in ritual practices it makes more sense to work with specific deities because they embody specific principles of the Divine. The other thing is that some of the Gods are actual living entities, and not just principles.

If we had living supernatural gods then we would all know it. Name any divine principle that has not been thought up by a person.

Maybe it's that the common man finally caught up with science.

Not when the vast majority of us are still affiliated with some religion. We still have a long way to go for common sense and intelligence to guide the vast majority.

People are still inventing gods, they're just not catching on as much.

True, other than money and statism.

Yeah that's what I was thinking also. We just have strange new gods that don't seem like gods but serve at least some of the same functions/purposes. Like we may worship science or something along those lines.

Not so much science but money and the state. Man has always craved stability and order and those wants are best served by money and the state.

People stopped inventing gods because as a species humans are becoming more intelligent. Religion only spread like it did because hundreds of years ago most people didn't have the intelligence to question things like gods and holy books.

True to a point. I see the main way that religions grew was by killing all who were weaker and opposed them. Note the Inquisitions and jihads.

As to intelligence, please see what I put above about not having much of that around.

I think that these gods simply match the prevailing morality of the times they were invented in. Perhaps that is one reason, that morality has advanced and the notion of a moral god who does not intervene in the enormous difficulty of existence is a very tough sell.

True.

I think that these gods represent the evolution of human spirtuality as we have become more communal and globalised. Initially when we were wanderers, we had a sort of pantheism, where spirits were isolated to certain local animals and significant landmarks in our hunting grounds. When we discovered agriculture and no longer came into touch with these animals/landmarks, we started to invent the disembodied pantheon of gods, with gods that mirrored specific, isolated parts of human existence, such as certain stars/astronomical features, weather, specific emotions or human ideals. Again though, there could have been conflict when humans societies encountered other human societies with their own, different pantheon. It seems logical that humans than strove for a kind of way of replacing all of those and so we gave birth to the monotheistic religions, most of which believe that their god is the One True God. Its like we refined our inventions as a species to an ideology which is totally dominant but also infinitely adaptable to the varieties of human culture. Rather than deities with very narrow remits, monotheistic religion usually describes both vague and generalised positive ideals of human interaction ("Love thy neighbour") as well as detailing exactly how one should conduct the mundane aspects of their lives (diet, clothing, gender roles, etc.) to ensure a kind of homogenous monoculture amongst participants. To me, it seems like our inventions became more and more humanlike.

I agree and just see it as us returning to the original thinking about god by most before Christianity and Islam screwed things up by becoming idol worshipers of their human created gods.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

I'm not sure where we could go after this. The next refinement could be a removal of the external deity and the creation of a sort of inner divinity shared equally by all humans. I guess that may be humanism.

That insight was a large part of what Gnostic Christianity thought and continue to think.

All this is sppeculation of course. Needless to say.

Yes, but as compared to theists, it is intelligent speculation.

Are we really getting more intelligent or are we simply gaining more knowledge? Humans still appear to make the same petty mistakes made throughout our holy books. Things don't seemed to have changed all that much.

True but we are getting more intelligent as shown by how few of our young are buying into our myths being reality.

^It's true.

After all, we are only standing upon the shoulders of giants. What becomes of us when the arms are lopped off and the giant cut down?

Our real gods which are human. That follows nature quite well where the god of an ant is an ant. Where the god of a lion is a lion and where the gods of men should be men.

There are other gods out there, some very new. But mainstream, not so much.

I hope that time and our moral and intellectual growth changes that.

I'm still stuck at the statement that gnostic Christians saw Jesus as an vile and immoral demiurge.

There are more than one Jesus shown in the scriptures. Gnostic Christians like the mystical and esoteric one that frees us from religions. We do not like the Rome created one as he is an immoral wimp who wants to slave us to religions. He is a part of the Trinity concept and a part, sort of, of Yahweh, who is quite the immoral prick.

I gather with a username like yours you've studied Gnosticism a fair bit, but my story doesn't match yours. the few self proclaimed gnostic Christians I spoke to had only nice things to say of Jesus.

Then their focus was not morality. Take Jesus' no divorce for women policy. Do you think it moral to force women to stay in abusive marriages and to deny them the chance to find a loving life partner?

I would ask you the same question as it pertains to gays.

Jesus attained gnosis of his divine origin and taught it to others during dark times. They could disambiguate message and messenger. I like what Philip k. Dick the writer had to say about it: http://montalk.net/PKD_principles.html

Gnostic Jesus did, as you say, but the church never teaches it the way Jesus did. Have you ever heard them quote these lines?


Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if thereforethine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come untohim, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there!for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also didpredestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be thefirstborn among many brethren.

I never have.

Mankind likes to deify things, everyone here seems to agree with that, and to some Jesus became a god outright, but perhaps you are speaking too broadly of what Gnostics actually believe as if they were one harmonious group with a consistent perspective. Your take on this does not compute. Feel free to elaborate.

Gnostic Christians, depending on their focus, do sometimes think differently. That is not surprising but what brings us together is the fact that we are free thinkers and do not try to force everyone to think the same way as some religions do.

People who worship science and/or call it a religion, are misguided, and do not understand the basics of the scientific method. Science is not a religion - it's just our best attempt to describe the physical world. But a lot of people don't understand that.

True. But the differences are getting blurred because science, like religions, have now progressed to where they have created a god of the gaps with there conflicting theories of what was before the big bang, just as religions have created their god of the gaps.

I've even heard religious people calling some proponents of scientific theories such as evolution, "evolutionists" or "Darwinists" as if it's a religion. It is not. It's just how we explain, based on evidence we found so far, the diversification and history of life.

I agree in terms of science not having a god.

Fuck this subject annoys me somewhat.

The only belief you have to uphold in science is "believe it when I see it". As in, you prove hypotheses by showing that something works or is in a certain way, and that which can be detected with our senses. The rest just follows logically.

No argument on this last.

Regards
DL