Covid-19 Who's planning on getting a COVID-19 vaccine? (Poll)

[negrogesic]

Prove it? Do you have access to these hospitals personally? How can you account for specifically how many have died? Do you have records you can show us because as far as I know NONE of this is public information. If you work in a hospital or medical setting and you're providing this information you're breaking patient confidentiality for a start. How is a virus that has already been proven to affect 0.1-0.4% (this itself VISIBLY available on any coronavirus stats page) of the population severely somehow equating to 'full hospitals and morgues with people dying or dead from this virus'?

I took a walk through a Los Angeles area hospital when Los Angeles was the epicenter of the crisis a few months ago. It was packed, patients gasping for air on gurneys in the halls due to lack of space. Had a few nightmares of it since visiting. The median age of patients was younger than i had anticipated.

 

[cduggles]

I took a walk through a Los Angeles area hospital when Los Angeles was the epicenter of the crisis a few months ago. It was packed, patients gasping for air on gurneys in the halls due to lack of space. Had a few nightmares of it since visiting. The median age of patients was younger than i had anticipated.

I understand and I won’t forget it any time soon either.

 

[novaveritas]

I understand and I won’t forget it any time soon either.

The median age thing could be an observation bias, which should be be examined dispassionately and objectively if we are going to be scientific...... use the S in CEPS

There are clear confounding factors, younger people with covid on average spend longer in hospital recovering than older people who are often sicker and die more quickly and often. Mean time to outcome is longer in younger patients. If you look at in-patients at any time there are at first sight a surprising number of younger people but when you work it out it is less surprising, they have been there longer, have overall milder symptoms and they usually go on to recover. Dead people are not left on gurneys in the corridors. A higher proportion older people end up in high dependency which hospital coronatourists don't get to see. So what coronatourists see is the subset of people who are too sick to be discharged but not sick enough to be high dependency or critical care...and that is the younger subset.
Of course the younger people out in the community who are never sick enough to admit, you don't see them at all and there are lots of them.

The other factor is that the covid hospitalized younger people <60 disproportionately are less healthy than the general population, they have a biological age much greater than their chronological age, brutally fewer of them will see old age corona or no corona.

How many morbidly obese seniors are there? very few because those people die before they become old.

If your BMI is over 40 (morbidly obese) then you have 3.8x higher risk of ending up in critical care with covid if your BMI is 30-40 (obese) then the risk is 1.28x but if your BMI is merely overweight at 25-30 the risk is reduced to 0.75x

2015 and 2017 seasonal flu was more visually disturbing because that was disproportionately younger and fitter people hit harder, but overall both were milder than corona, causing significant bed demand from people who were not sick enough to require critical care but who were too sick to discharge.
Until you check for bias and confounders and try to remove them what you see might not be real.

This COVID thing is a very weird viral syndrome.
CFR and hospitalization rate for Covid aligns closely with hospitalization and all causes mortality rate by age in recent times. That makes it either the weirdest fucking viral disease ever seen based on who it kills and hospitalizes, or maybe all is not what it seems.....

There are relatively few deaths below 60, but the age-stratified risk of death following a coronavirus positive test result for the over 60s is easy to calculate

Based on 700 000+ people with positive tests, dead is dead within 28 days of a positive test. This is the pseudo CFR of positive testing people and includes people who died with coronavirus not of coronavirus.

60-69 Covid CFR = 0.97% historic annual (all causes) mortality rate =0.6%-2% Mid 1.3% (strong age skew)
70-79 Covid CFR 3.78% annual mortality = 2% - 5.5% Mid 3.7%
80+ Covid CFR 12.61% annual mortality = 5.5%- 15% Mid 10.5% (small sample skew in CFR)

30-59 CFR is 0.12% which is also pretty close to the all causes mortality for the group and is concentrated in the older 50-59 group where it is 0.24% which.....is almost exactly in line with annual all causes mortality for 50-59 year olds...... There is a clear pattern here

FWIW annual risk of death goes up predictably from 5 years old, roughly 3-4 fold per decade til 90s where it is still less than 50%.

In this study of people in the community with coronavirus positives tests, the 30+ years old CFR is 0.3% and for 5-30 years it is lower still.
It is reasonable to say the whole population 28 day CFR for people in the community testing positive for coronavirus is less than 0.3%

The infection fatality rate IFR which is much more important. It includes recovered people who were not tested is likely much lower than the CFR but is still one year on the IFR is an unknown number, it can be estimated.

for those that want to read the paper

Risk of mortality in patients infected with SARS-CoV-2 variant of concern 202012/1: matched cohort study

Objective To establish whether there is any change in mortality from infection with a new variant of SARS-CoV-2, designated a variant of concern (VOC-202012/1) in December 2020, compared with circulating SARS-CoV-2 variants. Design Matched cohort study. Setting Community based (pillar 2)...

dx.doi.org

Clearly almost all the risk is in the the older groups, who are pretty much getting vaccinated and with that almost all the risk is reduced so long as the vaccines actually work. So what the hell are people doing? If scared younger people people want to run around double masking or getting vaccinated whatever that is fine, it doesn't make much difference to their absolute risk but that is their choice.

The big question is how can the CFR be claimed to be 2% on a population basis when looking at the other way following people subsequent to a positive test gives a CFR is 8 times lower. One of these numbers is wrong, someone is lying or there is a serious problem in the hospitals and long term care facilities, take your pick.

stats can be dangerous if misused with an agenda......
If you make some guesses and do the Hazard Ratio calculation for being a Bluelight user and it doesn't look good.

There are approx 20k active registered BL users at any one time there are >100 deaths in the shrine covering the last 10 years, >10 per year, >1 in 2000 of the active population, the average age of BL users is 20-30 so being a BL member is associated with at least a 5 times higher than expected mortality. The MFR member fatality rate for BL members is >0.05% per year. The situation could worse than that because not all the Bluelighters who die end up being mentioned in the shrine.

Using the Covidian logic then we should ban Bluelight because it associated with hugely increased mortality rate. Better safe than sorry, can't be too careful the numbers don't lie, follow the science.....

 

[novaveritas]

You say that with the shadows of those defining your new reality behind you. Everything you're saying right now is what you're being told to say. I mean, you can just admit and say well yes I've watched the news, I've read articles, I've seen all the drama and I believe it - th

Trust me, you'll soon see the old life you once had return and you'll thank me for it. But don't thank me for it, that's just what people who actually care about the society they live in do. It's a service we all owe to ourselves.

Mark Twain said it was easier to fool someone than to convince them they had been fooled.

He also said never give a scotsman credit, if you give them an Insch they will take a royal mile, perhaps Twain didn't say that , no matter both apply here which is why no matter what don't give him any credit.

your mileage may vary.

People struggle with accepting their own mortality, rather than seeing it as an inveitable and unavoidable consequence of living. It is sad when people irrationally fear death so much that they are willing to cower trembling, hiding from an imaginary reaper, ultimately the reaper will still get them just a different way, they all still die but because of fear they don't live before they die. Fuck life after death, believe in life before death. Act accordingly.
Fear is the most potent tool for manipulating people it is way easier and cheaper than hope.

 

[cduggles]

coronatourists

I was inspecting a facility to report on workflow and the condition of the staff related to coronavirus. That involves looking at the entire spectrum of care, including critical.
And I wasn’t intentionally making a comment about the age of patients, I was just agreeing with a fellow BLer that seeing a hospital burgeoning with corona patients is something I won’t forget soon. Note that yes I had to travel to see it, but I think tourist is a touch inappropriate for the situation.
The patients I saw in critical care were older on average than the ones admitted through emergency care and discharged or admitted for supplemental oxygen, etc.
But I did see a few doctors who were treating and a couple of patients who were “long haulers” and that’s a difficult situation. Morbidity is significant and well documented in many of these individuals.

That makes it either the weirdest fucking viral disease ever seen based on who it kills and hospitalizes, or maybe all is not what it seems.....

I think it’s a weird fucking virus, but I think most viruses are fucking weird.

Using the Covidian logic then we should ban Bluelight because it associated with hugely increased mortality rate.

We both know BL membership correlates highly with drug use, some are “heavy” drug users, and hence the risk of death.
And just for accuracy, you aren’t counting the deaths not noted in the Shrine because the person is dead and no one tells us. It’s logical to assume this happens, because we only hear about certain deaths because a BLer knows a person’s real identity and their death was announced elsewhere, like an obituary or by the family on social media.
The Shrine is such a sad place.

 

[Zephyn]

The median age thing could be an observation bias, which should be be examined dispassionately and objectively if we are going to be scientific...... use the S in CEPS

There are clear confounding factors, younger people with covid on average spend longer in hospital recovering than older people who are often sicker and die more quickly and often. Mean time to outcome is longer in younger patients. If you look at in-patients at any time there are at first sight a surprising number of younger people but when you work it out it is less surprising, they have been there longer, have overall milder symptoms and they usually go on to recover. Dead people are not left on gurneys in the corridors. A higher proportion older people end up in high dependency which hospital coronatourists don't get to see. So what coronatourists see is the subset of people who are too sick to be discharged but not sick enough to be high dependency or critical care...and that is the younger subset.
Of course the younger people out in the community who are never sick enough to admit, you don't see them at all and there are lots of them.

The other factor is that the covid hospitalized younger people <60 disproportionately are less healthy than the general population, they have a biological age much greater than their chronological age, brutally fewer of them will see old age corona or no corona.

How many morbidly obese seniors are there? very few because those people die before they become old.

If your BMI is over 40 (morbidly obese) then you have 3.8x higher risk of ending up in critical care with covid if your BMI is 30-40 (obese) then the risk is 1.28x but if your BMI is merely overweight at 25-30 the risk is reduced to 0.75x

2015 and 2017 seasonal flu was more visually disturbing because that was disproportionately younger and fitter people hit harder, but overall both were milder than corona, causing significant bed demand from people who were not sick enough to require critical care but who were too sick to discharge.
Until you check for bias and confounders and try to remove them what you see might not be real.

This COVID thing is a very weird viral syndrome.
CFR and hospitalization rate for Covid aligns closely with hospitalization and all causes mortality rate by age in recent times. That makes it either the weirdest fucking viral disease ever seen based on who it kills and hospitalizes, or maybe all is not what it seems.....

There are relatively few deaths below 60, but the age-stratified risk of death following a coronavirus positive test result for the over 60s is easy to calculate

Based on 700 000+ people with positive tests, dead is dead within 28 days of a positive test. This is the pseudo CFR of positive testing people and includes people who died with coronavirus not of coronavirus.

60-69 Covid CFR = 0.97% historic annual (all causes) mortality rate =0.6%-2% Mid 1.3% (strong age skew)
70-79 Covid CFR 3.78% annual mortality = 2% - 5.5% Mid 3.7%
80+ Covid CFR 12.61% annual mortality = 5.5%- 15% Mid 10.5% (small sample skew in CFR)

30-59 CFR is 0.12% which is also pretty close to the all causes mortality for the group and is concentrated in the older 50-59 group where it is 0.24% which.....is almost exactly in line with annual all causes mortality for 50-59 year olds...... There is a clear pattern here

FWIW annual risk of death goes up predictably from 5 years old, roughly 3-4 fold per decade til 90s where it is still less than 50%.

In this study of people in the community with coronavirus positives tests, the 30+ years old CFR is 0.3% and for 5-30 years it is lower still.
It is reasonable to say the whole population 28 day CFR for people in the community testing positive for coronavirus is less than 0.3%

The infection fatality rate IFR which is much more important. It includes recovered people who were not tested is likely much lower than the CFR but is still one year on the IFR is an unknown number, it can be estimated.

for those that want to read the paper

Risk of mortality in patients infected with SARS-CoV-2 variant of concern 202012/1: matched cohort study

Objective To establish whether there is any change in mortality from infection with a new variant of SARS-CoV-2, designated a variant of concern (VOC-202012/1) in December 2020, compared with circulating SARS-CoV-2 variants. Design Matched cohort study. Setting Community based (pillar 2)...

dx.doi.org

Clearly almost all the risk is in the the older groups, who are pretty much getting vaccinated and with that almost all the risk is reduced so long as the vaccines actually work. So what the hell are people doing? If scared younger people people want to run around double masking or getting vaccinated whatever that is fine, it doesn't make much difference to their absolute risk but that is their choice.

The big question is how can the CFR be claimed to be 2% on a population basis when looking at the other way following people subsequent to a positive test gives a CFR is 8 times lower. One of these numbers is wrong, someone is lying or there is a serious problem in the hospitals and long term care facilities, take your pick.

stats can be dangerous if misused with an agenda......
If you make some guesses and do the Hazard Ratio calculation for being a Bluelight user and it doesn't look good.

There are approx 20k active registered BL users at any one time there are >100 deaths in the shrine covering the last 10 years, >10 per year, >1 in 2000 of the active population, the average age of BL users is 20-30 so being a BL member is associated with at least a 5 times higher than expected mortality. The MFR member fatality rate for BL members is >0.05% per year. The situation could worse than that because not all the Bluelighters who die end up being mentioned in the shrine.

Using the Covidian logic then we should ban Bluelight because it associated with hugely increased mortality rate. Better safe than sorry, can't be too careful the numbers don't lie, follow the science.....

Of course being a blueligjt member is more likely to lead to death, this is obvious and doesn't make it any less TRUE

 

[ions]

If you’re not confident about the vaccine. Don’t worry. The third stimulus includes 1billion to boost confidence through advertising. Forget that that there may be ill affects.

 

[novaveritas]

I was inspecting a facility to report on workflow and the condition of the staff related to coronavirus. That involves looking at the entire spectrum of care, including critical.
And I wasn’t intentionally making a comment about the age of patients, I was just agreeing with a fellow BLer that seeing a hospital burgeoning with corona patients is something I won’t forget soon. Note that yes I had to travel to see it, but I think tourist is a touch inappropriate for the situation.
The patients I saw in critical care were older on average than the ones admitted through emergency care and discharged or admitted for supplemental oxygen, etc.
But I did see a few doctors who were treating and a couple of patients who were “long haulers” and that’s a difficult situation. Morbidity is significant and well documented in many of these individuals.

I think it’s a weird fucking virus, but I think most viruses are fucking weird.

We both know BL membership correlates highly with drug use, some are “heavy” drug users, and hence the risk of death.
And just for accuracy, you aren’t counting the deaths not noted in the Shrine because the person is dead and no one tells us. It’s logical to assume this happens, because we only hear about certain deaths because a BLer knows a person’s real identity and their death was announced elsewhere, like an obituary or by the family on social media.
The Shrine is such a sad place.

TBH I know you Know.
I have dealt with far too much death and too much stupid over the last few years and it makes you pretty jaded.

I was being facetious about the member fatality rate, MFR in BL but it was to illustrate stats can be twisted to anything people want them to be.

An experiment would be to shut down bluelight and see if the MFR went up in the former members the difference would be the harm reduction effect of BL but of course over time the MFR would rise because there would be no new members. So by judicious use of stats and observation periods you could generate two completely different answers. The confounder is drug use and therefore a proper correct control group would be a matched group of people who were similar drug users and were not members of Bluelight, that is actually the biggest sleight of hand with what I did. I used to see this done professionally all the time, gaming the results it is still commonplace.

Deaths of bluelighters not mentioned in the Shrine would be referred to as cryptic deaths in the parlance but I did mention that.

 

[novaveritas]

If you’re not confident about the vaccine. Don’t worry. The third stimulus includes 1billion to boost confidence through advertising. Forget that that there may be ill affects.

cool! Is sleepy Joe going to use some of the billion it to improve his confidence and public speaking skills?

 

[ions]

Lol glass joe u know punch out. But I’ve already started seeing the bullshit on fb.

cool! Is sleepy Joe going to use some of the billion it to improve his confidence and public speaking skills?

 

[novaveritas]

Lol glass joe u know punch out. But I’ve already started seeing the bullshit on fb.

Corn Pop for president 2024! he was a bad dude.....it is clear the propaganda is going to be turned up to 11. The truth is what they tell you it is, It clearly works on susceptible people I bet it doesn't work on corn pop cos he is a bad dude with a chain.

 

[ions]

As much as he wants a Tony baloney sandwich. I want a sloppy joe.

Corn Pop for president 2024! he was a bad dude.....it is clear the propaganda is going to be turned up to 11. The truth is what they tell you it is, It clearly works on susceptible people I bet it doesn't work on corn pop cos he is a bad dude with a chain.

 

[finitelifeform]

Of course being a blueligjt member is more likely to lead to death, this is obvious and doesn't make it any less TRUE

What's your point? If you're agreeing with what was said then you're also agreeing that the insanity going on around you is unfounded and contributing to the catastrophe that is the so-called global pandemic and that it's not representative of reality, only a very skewed and deliberately manipulated portion that serves to render one point legitimate over literally denying everything else. It's like taking a grand of sand and saying it is real but then removing the entire fucking desert and saying the desert isn't real just so you can believe in your twisted deluded mind that the desert is just one individual grain of sand. Do you also believe a car is simply one individual tyre and then refuse to acknowledge the rest of the car and try and convince others the reality of a car is down to one relatively insignificant portion of the bigger picture in comparison to the sum of all it's parts? So when you buy a car do are really instead seeking to buy one individual tyre? How does that work out for you when you try and take your kids to school? You'll find you can't fit a family on a fucking tyre and drive the kids to school. The obvious part of this logical fallacy is the fact that a tyre is not a car! Who would have known that? Is your house just a single brick or is your house really the street lamp outside of the house?

Wouldn't now agree we are verging into delusion and perhaps even something akin to psychosis? Or is it simply acceptable to turn reality on it's head and live in a delusion and for our entire lives to be one great big lie that we're not interested in challenging because it's far too easy to simply hide under the rug and assume a cretinous pathetic subhuman existence scared of the shadows being cast on the wall? Much like believing our entire evolution has culminated in us not knowing the difference between ourselves and our reflection in the mirror?

Mark Twain said it was easier to fool someone than to convince them they had been fooled.

He also said never give a scotsman credit, if you give them an Insch they will take a royal mile, perhaps Twain didn't say that , no matter both apply here which is why no matter what don't give him any credit.

your mileage may vary.

People struggle with accepting their own mortality, rather than seeing it as an inveitable and unavoidable consequence of living. It is sad when people irrationally fear death so much that they are willing to cower trembling, hiding from an imaginary reaper, ultimately the reaper will still get them just a different way, they all still die but because of fear they don't live before they die. Fuck life after death, believe in life before death. Act accordingly.
Fear is the most potent tool for manipulating people it is way easier and cheaper than hope.

Not just mortality but the innate connection to the human condition as a whole. I completely agree that death comes under my broad definition of the human condition but it's much more than just death. Death is of course the main motivator in life, this is simply a fact regardless of how much we try and twist the reality to reflect our own delusions. In fact you could say that our modern world is built around the denial of death, particularly in the West where it is shrouded in relative secrecy and the theme is of darkness and black colours and drab environments. Much of life is spent making a fuss over nothing in comparison to the cosmic plan you are destined to be assigned to, whether you like it or not. This inevitably ends up in yep, death. But before this stage of life there are far more going on.

Universally there is a desire to understand who we are and what we belong to and who everyone else is in relation to us. Psychology, philosophy, sociology, anthropology etc have all built their academic fields of study around core fundamental questions like this. Who are you? Who am I? What is life about? What direction should I be going in? What direction should my community be going in? What really matters? What do values mean, morals, ethics? What are my core beliefs? There is a monopoly over all these things because very clever people have capitalized on these innate human vulnerabilities for a very long time. This stretches back throughout human history whereby the masses have been goaded like cattle (hence why we call these people sheep) towards an outcome that benefits those leading them in that general direction. Whether it's to build huge monuments like the pyramids in Egypt or go to war over religious ideology, say with the Christian Crusades, or to marginalize a particular group because of something as benign and trivial as skin colour, to stoke the fire for the persecution of people who want to practice their own universal right to consume drugs. Behind it all there is the ability to understand and most importantly, exploit, the human condition.

Behind this you have to look at the fundamental makeup of these individuals being exploited. Who they are as individuals and what makes them who they are will open up the truth, and it likely won't be a pretty sight. In order to find people like you do today posting on forums like this adamantly and vehemntly defending the destruction of their own realities, you're talking about a HUGE disconnect from themselves as self governing, self actualizing individuals with a solid grounding in who they are and their role in life. You will find they will exhibit particular traits that are valuable to those in power and you can be certain these traits have been conditioned from an early age. So this then begs the question - how many people REALLY define themselves? I guess it's coming down to free will and determinism to some extent but also developmental factors, societal and cultural conditioning and the overarching environment in which these people live. Some will simply be burned by the smoldering furnace of life and essentially die before they die physically, and some will see the smoldering furnace as opportunity for growth, understanding, knowledge and potential. You'll find most people aren't actively defining themselves at all nor have they ever really expressed the urgency to do so beyond what is considered acceptable in the culture ie go to university, have kids, get a mortgage, get a credit card, assume their identity is based on their political leaning etc. What are these peoples identities beyond the smoke and mirrors, beyond the conditioning? Very little.

And here you have the very obvious disconnect with modern Western society (deliberately created by those in power) to their own human condition and to in many ways spirituality ie the bigger than I, bigger than we connection to something much deeper and much more meaningful that throughout history has acted as a safety net through testing times. Many are empty and do not understand themselves. Their world view is not compatible with the reality of life itself. Now we don't have anything to fall back on other than, yup, you guessed it, the so-called 'safety' apparatus provided by the beloved mom and pop government. Coincidentally safety appratus and the biosecurity state paradigm we are not experienced are conveniently interwoven. Notice the need for safety in todays world? WE MUST BE SAFE. WE MUST PROTECT ONE ANOTHER. WE MUST NOT BE UNSAFE AND FOR LIFE TO NATURALLY HAVE RISKS AND IN MANY CASES BE DANGEROUS. LIFE CANNOT HAVE RISKS. WE MUST MITIGATE THEM ALL AND FOREVER BE SAFE AND IF THAT MEANS TO LIVE A LIFE OF SUFFERING FOREVER MORE TO BE WRAPPED IN COTTON WOOL, SO BE IT.

That's something a tyrant wants you to believe, or an abusive partner, when they lay the foundations for the abusive relationship you're now about to be a part of.
And it's all par for the course when you have the masses conditioned for this very relationship. Death is part of it, but there is also a lot more going on. Death might be the last frontier, at least physically, but there is the life in between and that's where the gold mine is for whoever can capitalize on it. It should be the individual capitalizing on it because it's their gold mine to dig in but all the gold ever found is ciphened off by those who want you to believe all the carts coming and going are full of dirt and all the shit you don't want and need. In reality, they've built their empires off YOUR resources. And why? Because you never could be bothered to understand them, harness them and utilize them for greater good in your life and everybody else's.

And now you're somewhere close to the growing probems we have in the West and how for a long time now we have been on a collision course with destruction. Much of what sustains does isn't actually sustainable. It's got very little to do with the shit we put in the air but with our actual behaviour and our connection to ourselves, to society and to the planet. Again, don't blur the lines too much there and assume I'm talking about climage change. Climate change is another paradigm built on top of the understanding around our own destructive tendencies, climate change was actually the first narrative the so-called elites were planning to use for global lockdowns before they sprung upon the long recommended narrative of pandemic. Climate change is the trap to suck people in who believe what we have to do to change our world is to enact more laws and more insanity to fix the insanity we already have.

The problem is at the foundations and that involves the people, individuals, families, communities, the very essence of the what makes up human society and their unwillingness to hold those responsible for their actions, the people who they put confidence and trust in to run their countries. And because it's so hard to get these things to change because it involves waking people the fuck up and realizing their own innate responsibilities and what they are helping to support by going along with it, and to actually accept that the realities they live in are not fit for purpose, here we are. These are issues that strike deep at the heart of society because the people who are the victims are the ones who need to act. They are the ones who need to heal from the generational trauma inflicted and the damage done to them politically, economically, financially, socially and otherwise and start rebuilding seperate to the dark forces who have done this. And well, now we're talking about really seeing our relationship to the authorities we put in charge of our lives and we're onto making big changes. And that's a scary place because it involves accepting much of what you believe and thought is actually wrong. And people don't want to go through that experience because, as stated above, they have no identity to fall back on beyond the assumed role they've played all their life being good little citizens and not innately valuable individuals who are responsible for their own lives and to their own communities.

Use of 'your' or 'you' implied figuratively.

 

[alasdairm]

you know pretty much nothing about me @finitelifeform but you make an awful lot of assumptions about me...

alasdair

 

[cduggles]

Knock it off with personal comments and stick to the debate at hand.

 

[neversickanymore]

first round of vaccine done

 

[cduggles]

Take the prison experiments done by Zimbardo

Zimbardo has been largely debunked.

The Lifespan of a Lie

The most famous psychology study of all time was a sham. Why can’t we escape the Stanford Prison Experiment?

gen.medium.com

 

[finitelifeform]

Zimbardo has been largely debunked.

The Lifespan of a Lie

The most famous psychology study of all time was a sham. Why can’t we escape the Stanford Prison Experiment?

gen.medium.com

You'll need to provide more than a glorified hipster blog post to back that up. The academic field of psychology argues with itself all the time. It's nothing new. If you can find research papers, and not some dude who makes a living off writing overly pretentious look at me with my Mac in Starbucks articles, I'll entertain what you have to say.
To say you're saying his research has been debunked it doesn't take much to see the groupthink, double talk and cognitive dissonance in action today. You agree with what everybody else agrees with simply because it's not cool to agree with the minority who are seen as inferior. The minority are the ones who need controlling and coralling and dominating because to you they appear like the minority. Because the current social landscape has been cultivated and mandated by the government, the average person assumes no responsibility over how they behave to others who might not be conforming to the nuanced insider group rules ie the 'good guys'.
You would rather side with the version of reality that you're accustomed to be comfortable with and to live your life according to the rules set before you because you're conditioned to do so and because the ability to able to inflict suffering onto someone else and for this to be acceptable given the current world we live in affords you the temporary ability to do so. That itself is among the main premises for what Zimbardo was attempting to highlight. People act very differently when they are allowed to get away with things. Moreover, they act very differently when in a group and when the responsibility of every individual is distorted so that no one person is held accountable. Also, there's a lot of research on what people do in times of desperation and out of irrational decision making and impulsivity. This is when people will become the opposite of what they have aligned with themselves for their entire lives in order to reach an outcome they consider beneficial for their continued survival. Take the basic example of being on a desert island and having to make certain choices that involve the classical stereotypical sacrifices we see survivors having to make in those situations.

As humans we can be very tribalistic and very barbaric. Our human history depicts this very graphically. It wasn't so long ago we were living in times like this. In fact during the medieval era (not lightyears ago) the life expectancy for a person was just 30 years old. You can attribute this to lack of medicine, healthcare, science, technology and understanding of ourselves and the world we live in but it's also attributable to the lives we lived which involved LOTS of violence. Just think also that around this time most people either followed Christanity or they were burned at the stake or consequently punished in horrible ways. We haven't dropped down from a silver cloud my friend. Our history backs up the way in which we can act, think and feel, specifically when we are under the illusion we are among many who consider it acceptable to do so and therefore hidden among the masses.

The wheels were very much set in motion when Zimbardo released his landmark study. It's very difficult to argue with what he posited in his research because it's just so evident in everyday life. The psychology of crowds for example is one prime example of mob rule. But who is actually leading the mob and if they commit crimes, who accepts responsibility? How long before the illusion of strength of numbers is reduced down to a lone individual where the power dynamic has been completely reversed? Do you see a difference in that persons behaviour now? We that play out all the time in our modern society. There's a big moment where everybody bands together and they really believe they are doing the right thing and the false sense of security they get from doing it with others makes them believe they are impervious to justice. And then WHAM... Justice is served and all those people are now suddenly very isolated and vulnerable, just like they were before it all happened. During those moments though? They no doubt felt like they were on top of the world.

Look at the psychology of civil unrest and the riots that ensue. Many people never intend to riot and cause harm to others or damage property. They are simply there to capitalize on the fact that there are SO MANY people present that it would seem almost impossible for each and every person to be held accountable for their actions in those given moments. And what eventually happens? Precisely what they expected would not happen. Either way, the psychology of what culminated proves the point that people when given the chance will do things they perhaps otherwise wouldn't do.

Think of that when you're making everyday decisions. You'll be surprised to see that what you're arguing against is actually present throughout life. Just go to your nearest city and watch how most people simply behave according to how others are behaving and respond in tune with their environment. They are unconsiously responding to their environment based on the smallest cues. Watch how if you queue outside a shop others will assume that they too have to queue there as well without thinking for themselves. Watch how power dynamics shift based on the amount of people present in particular social situations. When you're with 10 friends you feel differently to when you're on your own and you're able to make decisions that otherwise you wouldn't make as easily, perhaps rash decisions.

The truth is when people believe they are allowed to act in certain ways and are given very little prospect of punishment, they will very likely continue to act in those ways to benefit from the perceived advantage they have other than given situation, person and/or relationship dynamic. The whole idea of what you would do to a murderer if you could get away with it. Or a nasty ex-girlfriend/boyfriend. We all have these thoughts. We have them for a reason. All it takes is for the external environment to faciliate those thoughts, beliefs and largely primitive behaviours and we have what you discredit.

As for deleting my posts, I find that pathetic. Perhaps you shouldn't passively aggressively attack members of this forum who are simply providing their perspective. And yes, it was a moderator who did that. Actually, I'm pretty sure it was you.

 

[cduggles]

Voila:
Academic paper debunking Zimbardo’s Stanford Prison Study.

https://www.gwern.net/docs/psychology/2019-letexier.pdf

 

[Deru]

As for deleting my posts, I find that pathetic. Perhaps you shouldn't passively aggressively attack members of this forum who are simply providing their perspective. And yes, it was a moderator who did that. Actually, I'm pretty sure it was you.

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