Who actively practices harm reduction when using drugs?

[Sykik]

Does inforcing HR attitudes on your friends /drug-friends count as extra HR brownie points!

 

[MrIbis]

lecturing people seldom helps, and in most cases - makes you look like a goose. People less often respond to spoken word, only what they see and experience. A lifetime of lessons can be told in one book, and the person reading can learn not one of them. Let that person experience that lifetime, and the effect is totally different - unless the lessons are immersive enough to stimulate those points of the mind that would make you think differently about them. generally, lecturing - isn't a good way to achieve these ends.

it's why people write notes at school.

 

[Luude]

Thats exactly why you dont lecture them.

Informing them of the risks and precautions is definitely warranted, but there are many ways to go about it and being confrontational rarely helps.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Well thanks for that rant.

Firstly, the point i was making regarding polydrug use is that some combinations are more dangerous than others. Alcohol and Cocaine do produce cocaethylene in the liver (BTW i appreciate you trying to school me with things i've known for 20 years).

i realise the point you were trying to make but i dont understand why one deadly combination is any more dumbshit than the other? i dont understand your moral high ground or whatever it is but were going to have to agree to disagree on the matter.

However GENERALLY on one occassion this isn't going to be severely damaging.

neither is taking some valium and oxy together. alcohol is toxic to the body, opiates and benzos are not. we could go on with the blanket statements...

A combination such as opiates and benzodiazepines is completely foolish. I wont school you on the issue as you did with me because you seem to be rather irritated or something and i have no patience to reply like this again with someone such as yourself.

i may not be as old as your but im aware of just as much as you are, everything you quoted is nothing i havent read about. what youre trying to spread is fear mongering - dont ever mix opiates and benzos, youll be sure to die!!!

Just to highlight my point on the dangers of opiate/benzo combo's:

i could pull up a thousand cases of deadly outcomes and what from of many combinations other than opiates and benzos.

So smoking a joint on MDMA is inherently dangerous?

maybe the user flips out on the weed and has an anxiety/panic attack? they get god awful paranoia and flip out. ive seen this happen to people on mdma alone, they didnt need to smoke any weed.

i just dont get the whole fear mongering attitude of "dont mix benzos and opiates, youll die!!!" i dont get why you took my post so personally either, where did i get personal?

i dont care if i look like an idiot, i stand behind everything ive said. you look like an idiot for trying scare tactics on bluelight.

 

[Luude]

neither is taking some valium and oxy together. alcohol is toxic to the body, opiates and benzos are not. we could go on with the blanket statements...

Alcohol is toxic, fine. Long term health implications might come up. Don't really have time for that when you asphxiyate on your own vomit because you've knowningly taken 2 CNS depressants (opiates/benzo's).

what youre trying to spread is fear mongering - dont ever mix opiates and benzos, youll be sure to die!!!

Have you lost anyone to this combination? You'd be fucking heeding caution if you had like myself, with the same stereotypical ignorant attitude you hold. Not only that, where did i every say you'd be sure to die? Quoting someone usually means you reply to their comment, not make it up to suit your argument.

i could pull up a thousand cases of deadly outcomes and what from of many combinations other than opiates and benzos.

Congratulations, i can use Google too.

maybe the user flips out on the weed and has an anxiety/panic attack? they get god awful paranoia and flip out. ive seen this happen to people on mdma alone, they didnt need to smoke any weed.

So what part of that is directly life threatening? Yeah, they flip out, lose their shit, do whatever. People dont die just because they flip out, so that was fairly idiotic.

Me, scare tactics? Im hear to spread information so i don't have to witness more people dying becuase they are too fucking stupid to understand the risks they are taking.

Also, notice how i said "Just to highlight my point on the dangers of opiate/benzo combo's:.

DANGERS. I didn't put a blanket statement over the combination saying you will die, so try and reply to comments i've actually made, otherwise it just gets too hard to reply to beligerant people like yourself.

 

[MrIbis]

^dude.. dont tell me you've never taken oxy and xanax together, because i know you have.. so practice what you're preaching here please.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Have you lost anyone to this combination? You'd be fucking heeding caution if you had like myself, with the same stereotypical ignorant attitude you hold. Not only that, where did i every say you'd be sure to die? Quoting someone usually means you reply to their comment, not make it up to suit your argument.

no i havent, i myself have overdosed and was fortunate enough i woke up after my fall. my father has also been revived from a heroin overdose. im sorry you have and that helps explain your reaction. of course i heed caution otherwise i would be dead, i havent made it this far by luck. im aware of the risks im taking but that doesnt stop me avoiding the combination.

Congratulations, i can use Google too.

obviously

So what part of that is directly life threatening? Yeah, they flip out, lose their shit, do whatever. People dont die just because they flip out, so that was fairly idiotic.

people dont just die from mixing opiates and benzos together either. flipping out may not result in death but theres always the possibility, right? someone flipping out could harm another person or themselves rather easily.

Me, scare tactics? Im hear to spread information so i don't have to witness more people dying becuase they are too fucking stupid to understand the risks they are taking.

thats good, im here to spread information as well. i know that opiates and benzos can be used responsibly together and neednt have the whole "theyre so bad to take in combination" stigma. i also can admit that they can be a dangerous combination. its not that people dont understand the risks, people who actively seek out dangerous doses are careless and they ruin the image for those who are responsible

so many other combinations pose exactly the same dangers yet theyre the "cool" thing to do between different using groups. who doesnt know someone going out every weekend taking e and meth together in large amounts and then going home and blowing out on g to help comedown and having a few drinks throughout the night? i see a lot more stupidity in those actions then then mixing opiates and benzos. we share different opinions and thats totally fine, im not ignorant to your side of the argument.

DANGERS. I didn't put a blanket statement over the combination saying you will die, so try and reply to comments i've actually made, otherwise it just gets too hard to reply to beligerant people like yourself.

i never stated you said youll die from opiates and benzos, you have that kind of attitude though (below quote). people can make their own informed decisions, not everyone is as stupid and minsinformed as you seem to think. i see plenty of bluelighters taking benzos and opiates everyday with no problems at all.

Alcohol is toxic, fine. Long term health implications might come up. Don't really have time for that when you asphxiyate on your own vomit because you've knowningly taken 2 CNS depressants (opiates/benzo's).

oh ok so you will absolutely have the wit about yourself to call for the paramedics when youre dying of alcohol poisoning?

i think youre failing to see that opiates and benzos can be taken together safely.

 

[Cheech73]

I always was careful taking blotter acid. I never mix too many benzos with my heroin. Dope quality is so shitty lately that i never shoot more than 12 bags. I have a pretty high tolerence in regards to opiates. I wish I could cop something to knock me on my ass..

 

[MrIbis]

On the same note;

We aren't all the same - some of us have different survival instincts than others, what killed heath ledger seems like something could have taken without dropping to me - it's all relative.

mixing CNS depressants is dangerous, hell Luude witnessed me drop from just smack alone... allbeit it wasn't fatal or dangerous, paramedics were called - and told to fuck off by me, who luckily woke up enough to tell em to do so.

still, im thankful people like luude were present at the time, or such an outcome may not have occured, who can say.

No need to bash on eachothers POVs here - everyone is entitled to their opinion based ideals.

 

[lil angel15]

Guys,

I don't think I really need to explain why posts were unapproved.

Play nice or don't post in the thread.

The personal attacks are not needed in the thread.

Cheers

 

[Sustanon]

I always was careful taking blotter acid. I never mix too many benzos with my heroin. Dope quality is so shitty lately that i never shoot more than 12 bags. I have a pretty high tolerence in regards to opiates. I wish I could cop something to knock me on my ass..

Not encouraging drug usage here but i find oxys to be way more better than H. Most H quality isnt that great around here and if it is the price is thru the roof and i mean more expensive than ice by far. Oxys are cheaper and atleast u know what u are getting. No wonder why so many people OD on H. Its russian rulette all the time. Be careful man.

 

[madmick19]

this is a great thread psytaco- and a good point that attitudes dont always correspond to behaviours.

For me harm reduction plays a better role in peoples lives if it becomes a value- much like say moderation of taking substances/drinking etc. I nearly always practiced harm reduction at the start of my career and incorporate harm reduction style of counselling into my practice with people at the clinic.

Harm reduction as a value i find breeds practices of harm reduction and makes people take an interest in their own health and saftey. i guess one of the best bit of harm reduction advice i follow is dont mix substances, take half of what you think you'll need and make sure you know as much as possible about the drug your taking.

the most helpful generic knowledge that was useful for me was by a guy norman zinberg- the drug set and setting model and how these different parts of a night out contribute/influence each other. knowing the above always made even unpredictable nights out eaiser. As for the person who asked if you get brownie points for spreading HR to your friends i believe so- thats how enlighten, ravesafe and code blue came about

the discussion about opiates and benzos is correct- both are CNS depressants and potentiate each others affects- add alcohol and you have another potentiating substance inthere which increases the risk higher again- its the main concern of people who prescribe opiates for pain relief of maintenance therapies

 

[Sustanon]

this is a great thread psytaco- and a good point that attitudes dont always correspond to behaviours.

For me harm reduction plays a better role in peoples lives if it becomes a value- much like say moderation of taking substances/drinking etc. I nearly always practiced harm reduction at the start of my career and incorporate harm reduction style of counselling into my practice with people at the clinic.

Harm reduction as a value i find breeds practices of harm reduction and makes people take an interest in their own health and saftey. i guess one of the best bit of harm reduction advice i follow is dont mix substances, take half of what you think you'll need and make sure you know as much as possible about the drug your taking.

the most helpful generic knowledge that was useful for me was by a guy norman zinberg- the drug set and setting model and how these different parts of a night out contribute/influence each other. knowing the above always made even unpredictable nights out eaiser. As for the person who asked if you get brownie points for spreading HR to your friends i believe so- thats how enlighten, ravesafe and code blue came about

the discussion about opiates and benzos is correct- both are CNS depressants and potentiate each others affects- add alcohol and you have another potentiating substance inthere which increases the risk higher again- its the main concern of people who prescribe opiates for pain relief of maintenance therapies

To be honest id never really combine opiates and benzos. There has been so many reports on deaths by mixing the two and yea ur right bout them potentiating eachother not to mention how both would slow ur breathing down which is not cool. Opiates and benzos should be taken with care.

 

[mona]

When I used to use Bluelight oh so many years ago, it was under the guise of harm minimisation... well ultimately I guess we did TRY and minimise harm. We tested everything, researched everything, educated on everything etc etc but it all ended with the same result. How to get as fucked as we could possibly get, with as many different substances as we could get hold of, without suffering too much on the other side. So we armed ourselves with knowledge about dosing, successful combinations, vitamin pre- and post-loading, using 5htp, eating bananas and turkey and what not. We thought we were doing good, but really, we were pushing some boundaries. We got really really fucked. Every week. And we still had shitty comedowns. We still called ourselves ambassadors of harm minimisation.

Saying all that though, I've been privy to almost zero dodgy drug experiences with friends. Maybe we're all just generally smart people, with a curiosity that goes beyond 'suck it and see' and perhaps that what basic harm minimisation is about?

Now though... I live in the UK and the drug situation is pretty different. I don't take pills because generally, they're not MD** based, and they always make me vomit (in a bad way). Besides, MDMA crystals are pretty common and why wouldn't you just buy those? I try not to take K after drinking alcohol because it makes me feel sick, and I like to take a dab of the coke before I buy because I don't wanna get ripped off. Oh and I never take more than one tab of acid at a time... because I just don't want to! Is that harm minimisation?

I've just bought G for the first time in aaaages though, and naughty me, tonight I didn't really measure my dose properly. It was very small though, and I am at home, testing it out because I want to take some out on the weekend and didn't want to go in blind. I guess that's harm minimisation. Or am I just getting too old to suffer the embarrassment of passing out in public in front of my friends?

Who knows? Bluelight, enlighten, ravesafe etc etc are all championing a great concept.. but if we were all to be entirely honest with ourselves and our experiences minimising harm, we could almost say that we are at higher risk than most because we know just how far we can push...

 

[Sykik]

^^ wow, great post mona.

.. but if we were all to be entirely honest with ourselves and our experiences minimising harm, we could almost say that we are at higher risk than most because we know just how far we can push...

I too fall victum to this effect. But I think knowing the boundaries (of the drug and your own personal boundaries) is a real eye opener, and operating within these boundaries is still HR. Even if your boundaries are quite large quantities, at least you know your limits.

 

[Somewhat-damaged]

paramedics were called - and told to fuck off by me, who luckily woke up enough to tell em to do so.

Standup citizen. It's people like you that ruin it for the rest of us.

 

[MrIbis]

Dude, you cant ruin anything dropping in your own home idiot. accidents happen. why would i wanna waste good money by getting injected with naloxone and being monitored?

 

[MrIbis]

mona; one thing with G is, if you've had pure g before - theres no reason to stress - you know your limits.

and pure g is/was widely available in london with same day delivery from internet sources - why would you buy it from a street dealer?

 

[mona]

Mr Ibis, I didn't buy the G from a street dealer. It was the dodgy pills I bought from some guy in a club in September. First time ever. And I've been doing this for a longer time than I'd like to admit. As for the G, sure, no reason to stress but it's one drug I'll always exercise extra caution with if doing in public. And actually, I'm just in from a night sampling out at the pub--over-cautiousness meant I didn't take enough and am now feeling ho-hum about a relationship with the drug I used to treasure so much. Boo!

 

[Morissey]

On the rare occasion when I use MDMA I try to:
- Take plenty of anti-oxidants (ALA, Vit C, Vit E complex, Pine Bark / Pycogonol, etc)
- Take Magnesium for jaw clenching
- Take Deprenyl (low dose) to reduce neurotoxicity
- Take Memantine if i have it
- Keep a low body temperature, maybe low dose aspirin
- Various other supplements (bacopa, ashwagandha, rhodiola, 5-htp, tytrophan, lemon balm... etc)
Thats all that comes to mine at the moment, i'm pretty fanatical about it. I might even completely quit MDMA, I enjoy staying healthy these days.


When I use Benzo's I take Piracetam or Oxiracetam with 3grams of vitamin C and maybe some time released vitamin C before sleep. This completely rids any memory loss which is great if you have been up studying all night on Dexamphetamine and need a little help sleeping.