specialrelativity
Bluelighter
old LSD is old LSD. Old LSD=Old LSD.
Lysergamides White fluff LSD vs Needlepoint LSD
- Thread starter 90's hangover
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ebola?
Bluelight Crew
By what evidence has this been established? Baeocystin is probably psychoactive in its own right, and present psilocybin to psilocin ratios can explain additional differences in psychoactivity.
...
ergoloids are really touchy in terms of SAR--the slightest change usually renders an active compound inactive, suggesting against any perceptible effect of impurities.
ebola
buildersoftime
Bluelighter
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Actually if you read Krystal Cole's (awful) book, you'll see that Pickard called his LSD "Lavender". Todd Skinner who was basically a supreme bullshitter made it known that he himself created a higher grade of LSD known as "white fluff". This was almost certainly a lie as after Pickard's arrest, Skinner tried to make one of the TiHKAL typtamines and ended up with a load of black sludge in the bottom of a baking tray. He was in no way the master chemist that he liked to pretend he was.
OK.... Here's a useful bullshitometer:
What proportion of Grateful Dead fans believe in homeopathy, spiritual healing, ghosts and alien abductions? What about chemists?
Just because you like a band who's sound engineer was an LSD chemist, it doesn't mean you're any more qualified than a plumber when it comes to talking about the pharmacology of inactive isomers.
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flat-line
Bluelighter
I am not going to get into the shrooms that would be off topic and a possible derailment. The point I was trying to make is substances can be altered by small amounts of impurities.
One guy ? dose he have a study on this particular subject *impurities and effects on LSD* ?
Them ? them who..? some guys on the Internet somewhere ? Like the guys that ate Scooby Dos with "strychnine" ? in ?? NYC ?
Where ? links(to more then an blurb about LSD) ?
You and other are saying this has all been figured out by research but all I am seeing is a couple of reports here and there of incomplete research.
I am looking for all the possible impurities tested with LSD to see if they alter the trip. Until then I don't think there is enough of the story to come to a complete 100% scientific answer.
I don't stand on ether side.. but both sides don't have enough info as far as I'm concerned. We have guys in the lab with incomplete and unrelated studies and people trying to turn into complete and related studies. and we have LSD users with experiences that cannot be proven.
I keep hearing the research is all out there I have not seen it. Just little bits of this and that copy pasted, about as complete as deadheads running around doing blotter tabs.
One guy ? dose he have a study on this particular subject *impurities and effects on LSD* ?
Them ? them who..? some guys on the Internet somewhere ? Like the guys that ate Scooby Dos with "strychnine" ? in ?? NYC ?
Where ? links(to more then an blurb about LSD) ?
You and other are saying this has all been figured out by research but all I am seeing is a couple of reports here and there of incomplete research.
I am looking for all the possible impurities tested with LSD to see if they alter the trip. Until then I don't think there is enough of the story to come to a complete 100% scientific answer.
I don't stand on ether side.. but both sides don't have enough info as far as I'm concerned. We have guys in the lab with incomplete and unrelated studies and people trying to turn into complete and related studies. and we have LSD users with experiences that cannot be proven.
I keep hearing the research is all out there I have not seen it. Just little bits of this and that copy pasted, about as complete as deadheads running around doing blotter tabs.
lolwhatzdrugs
Bluelighter
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/dea/pubs/lsd/LSD-5.htm
"Over the past 30 years, the traditional dilution factor for manufacturing LSD has been 10,000 doses per 1 gram of crystal. Therefore, dosage units yielded from high-purity (95- to 100-percent pure) LSD crystal would contain 100 micrograms. However, dosages currently seen contain closer to 50 micrograms. This discrepancy stems in part from production impurities: during the sythesis process, manufacturers generally fail to perform a final “clean-up” step to remove by-products, thereby lowering the crystal’s purity. Further, though average purity of tested LSD crystal samples is, as noted, 62 percent, the average potency of doses analyzed is approximately 50 micrograms rather than 62 micrograms, as would be expected. The diminished potency can be attributed to distributors who, when applying the crystal to paper, often “cheat” by diluting 1 gram of crystal to produce up to 15,000 or more dosage units."
Doesn't mention WHAT the impurities are though,
"Over the past 30 years, the traditional dilution factor for manufacturing LSD has been 10,000 doses per 1 gram of crystal. Therefore, dosage units yielded from high-purity (95- to 100-percent pure) LSD crystal would contain 100 micrograms. However, dosages currently seen contain closer to 50 micrograms. This discrepancy stems in part from production impurities: during the sythesis process, manufacturers generally fail to perform a final “clean-up” step to remove by-products, thereby lowering the crystal’s purity. Further, though average purity of tested LSD crystal samples is, as noted, 62 percent, the average potency of doses analyzed is approximately 50 micrograms rather than 62 micrograms, as would be expected. The diminished potency can be attributed to distributors who, when applying the crystal to paper, often “cheat” by diluting 1 gram of crystal to produce up to 15,000 or more dosage units."
Doesn't mention WHAT the impurities are though,
buildersoftime
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2013
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Here. I'll google it for you.
Green et al. 1978
Shulgin. 1997
Hofmann. 1959
Marona-Lewicka & Nichols. 2007
Cerletti & Doepfner. 1957
Anderson, Braun, Braun & Nichols. 1978
I could continue but it might be best if you were to sharpen your research skills rather than me. Maybe you can take over where I left off?
lolwhatzdrugs
Bluelighter
blue, get a grip. That post I made saying I tripped with Dr Hoffman in 58 wasn't meant to be taken seriously. You do know who Dr Hoffman is right?
I'm not sure if we established that or not tho flatline. The impurities have to be active, and there are very, very few things that are active at smaller doses than LSD.
flat-line
Bluelighter
You are throwing names out there of people that have studied LSD, so where is the connection to studies of "dirty acid" impurities in LSD ?
This is what has been going on through out these treads. People paste a name or blurb and claims it proves their side in the debate A pasted name or blub means Nothing unless it has some relevant to the subject research attached to it.
Albert Hoffmen, Obama, King Gorge, = nothing and irrelevant.
You are going to have to add some keywords to your google search if you want to come up with any kind of relevant info. I would love to see some..
I keep hearing "scientific proof" but it seems to be a ghost in the woods.
This is what has been going on through out these treads. People paste a name or blurb and claims it proves their side in the debate A pasted name or blub means Nothing unless it has some relevant to the subject research attached to it.
Albert Hoffmen, Obama, King Gorge, = nothing and irrelevant.
You are going to have to add some keywords to your google search if you want to come up with any kind of relevant info. I would love to see some..
I keep hearing "scientific proof" but it seems to be a ghost in the woods.
buildersoftime
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2013
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FFS Flat-line. These are called 'citations'. It's the information needed to access specific academic papers that talk about the subject in question. It's how people prove that what they are saying is backed up by research and not just opinion.
In the case of the above citations, each of these papers mentions that iso-LSD is inactive.
In the case of the above citations, each of these papers mentions that iso-LSD is inactive.
lolwhatzdrugs
Bluelighter
And wiki:
"However, LSD and iso-LSD, the two C-8 isomers, rapidly interconvert in the presence of bases, as the alpha proton is acidic and can be deprotonated and reprotonated. Non-psychoactive iso-LSD which has formed during the synthesis can be separated by chromatography and can be isomerized to LSD."
flat-line
Bluelighter
The "citations" I have seen in these threads go to some unrelated studies, or incomplete studies. A "citation" is more then just a name and a year. You are missing quoted facts and references to where they came from.
I have seen no citations that reference a complete study or even one near complete on impurities and the effect on LSD. I have read a couple very interesting studies cited that claimed the impurities had "no effects" by themselves but I have not seen any studies on what they will do to an LSD trip(combined with LSD).
-So to me their is still a possibility that some of these impurities could effect the subtle qualities of a LSD experience.
-I also have some doubt if all the possible impurities that can be produced in the manufacture of LSD have been tested.
You cannot prove anything scientifically by just pasting the name of a scientist who has done work in a field. You have to show the studies that have proven what you claim is fact I have not seen this.
I have seen no citations that reference a complete study or even one near complete on impurities and the effect on LSD. I have read a couple very interesting studies cited that claimed the impurities had "no effects" by themselves but I have not seen any studies on what they will do to an LSD trip(combined with LSD).
-So to me their is still a possibility that some of these impurities could effect the subtle qualities of a LSD experience.
-I also have some doubt if all the possible impurities that can be produced in the manufacture of LSD have been tested.
You cannot prove anything scientifically by just pasting the name of a scientist who has done work in a field. You have to show the studies that have proven what you claim is fact I have not seen this.
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buildersoftime
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2013
- Messages
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If you require a different method of citation than the entirety of academia, theres not much more that can be done for you here. You seem unwilling or incapable of following the chain of eidence but instead want someone else to do the reading for you, predigest it and then convince you of its validity while you jump up and down telling them that they're wrong.
Maybe a better reseach methodology for you would be to go round to David Nichols' house for tea? I'm sure he would be facinated to hear that his life's work is for nothing because he didn't hang around outside greatful dead concerts selling paper. He would definitely respect your opinion on the matter.
Maybe a better reseach methodology for you would be to go round to David Nichols' house for tea? I'm sure he would be facinated to hear that his life's work is for nothing because he didn't hang around outside greatful dead concerts selling paper. He would definitely respect your opinion on the matter.
LSD Cruiser
Bluelighter
Mamba,
the carbon atom C-8 and its double bond in the middle linking it to the C-5 carbon atom renders LSD too prone to epimerization and inversion into its diastereoisomer and other polymers that will not let you yield the good stuff at all for such a phenomena to happen. Further I don't know what chemist proficient enough to obtain ergotamine tartrate would take a chance improvising with some of the chemicals involved. A few recrystallization steps with lysergic acid and the end product LSD aren't necessary depending on the yield desired though. Yield is not necessarily purity however, as it is just the yield of LSD recovered divided by the yield of LSD expected, multiplied by 100%. You can yield 110% LSD and that would be normal. Think of LSD synthesis like developing microorganisms where with the very slightest biological imperfection certain bacterias form and stop it from growing depending on its genetic tolerance to the environment. It would be a scientific anomaly to have many byproducts at a measurable quantity that allowed LSD's existence and weren't LSD's isomers.
the carbon atom C-8 and its double bond in the middle linking it to the C-5 carbon atom renders LSD too prone to epimerization and inversion into its diastereoisomer and other polymers that will not let you yield the good stuff at all for such a phenomena to happen. Further I don't know what chemist proficient enough to obtain ergotamine tartrate would take a chance improvising with some of the chemicals involved. A few recrystallization steps with lysergic acid and the end product LSD aren't necessary depending on the yield desired though. Yield is not necessarily purity however, as it is just the yield of LSD recovered divided by the yield of LSD expected, multiplied by 100%. You can yield 110% LSD and that would be normal. Think of LSD synthesis like developing microorganisms where with the very slightest biological imperfection certain bacterias form and stop it from growing depending on its genetic tolerance to the environment. It would be a scientific anomaly to have many byproducts at a measurable quantity that allowed LSD's existence and weren't LSD's isomers.
LSD Cruiser
Bluelighter
(I made this a second post because it's off-topic and plus I just thought of it, so a mod can delete easier if they deem fit)
On the mushroom topic I expect all compounds identified in psilocybin cubensis and psilocybe mexicana to be active. Has it been established what alkaloids might be present in Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata besides "psilocybin and or psilocin", for example? I don't think it's been studied.
Described effects of mushrooms themselves also are tough to draw any conclusions with as the ratio of psilocin and other alakloids is determined at around the time of their first pinset. While it matures the mushroom gains weight and the alkaloids just spread out single file across the mushroom in the same concentration. To further complicate the matter mushrooms should lose 90% of their weight (H20), but often aren't fully dried before making it to the market or being consumed. These factors in mind it is entirely possible a 3.5 gram pile of fat bulky dried mushrooms that have opened their caps and deposited spores will result in a drastically different experience than a 3.5 gram pile of mushrooms unable to make it out of pin ("aborts")... from the same flush, and that could be attributed to just psilocin alone.
I suggest we should synthesize 4-HO-DMT, 4-HO-NMT/4-H2PO4-DMT, and N,N,N-trimethyl-4-phosphoryloxytryptamine and conduct some experiments. I'm surprised such an endeavor hasn't really been explored in-depth yet, really. Some psychonauts have claimed to but not enough to prove validity, not that I am aware of anyways. At the moment it's a mysterious debate, but I'm almost positive those compounds are active in their own right.
On the mushroom topic I expect all compounds identified in psilocybin cubensis and psilocybe mexicana to be active. Has it been established what alkaloids might be present in Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata besides "psilocybin and or psilocin", for example? I don't think it's been studied.
Described effects of mushrooms themselves also are tough to draw any conclusions with as the ratio of psilocin and other alakloids is determined at around the time of their first pinset. While it matures the mushroom gains weight and the alkaloids just spread out single file across the mushroom in the same concentration. To further complicate the matter mushrooms should lose 90% of their weight (H20), but often aren't fully dried before making it to the market or being consumed. These factors in mind it is entirely possible a 3.5 gram pile of fat bulky dried mushrooms that have opened their caps and deposited spores will result in a drastically different experience than a 3.5 gram pile of mushrooms unable to make it out of pin ("aborts")... from the same flush, and that could be attributed to just psilocin alone.
I suggest we should synthesize 4-HO-DMT, 4-HO-NMT/4-H2PO4-DMT, and N,N,N-trimethyl-4-phosphoryloxytryptamine and conduct some experiments. I'm surprised such an endeavor hasn't really been explored in-depth yet, really. Some psychonauts have claimed to but not enough to prove validity, not that I am aware of anyways. At the moment it's a mysterious debate, but I'm almost positive those compounds are active in their own right.
BlueHues
Bluelighter
A-fucking-men!! this should be plastered as a sticky in every forum in BL! sure, there's people on BL who can legitimately claim to be scientists, but like you said....these fuckin "search engine cowboys" playing like they actually know what the fuck they're talking about irritates the fuck out of me!
You're holding your own....you're fucking winning this argument!
LSD Cruiser
Bluelighter
It's not likely iso-LSD and LSD alters receptor binding when combined. This would mean that as tabs degrade their body load will raise which nothing of the sort has ever been described to the best of my knowledge. I have eaten several degraded tabs and never said "Hmm some hits hurt my gut and some don't". Notable to mention this was before I was a 'scientist' or 'search-engine cowboy' as BlueHues is calling me. However this is an area Flat-line you're correct has not been specifically researched, due in part the difficulty of working with such small amounts of product. Advancements in gas-liquid chromatography has made working with LSD easier in 2013, but the fact ~10 micrograms of iso-LSD is the only impurity I've ever seen in any analysis (dozens) should say something. If you compare the analysis I have observed with ones from 1973 Pharmchem observed, one could actually conclude the LSD of the 2000s is twice as pure as the LSD was then on average. Since empirical evidence is the only apparently accepted here (I'm sad I have to say that on a harm reduction site I digress), the bad-ass looking 3D Red Ganesha print was notorious for being unevenly dosed. Decomposition was discovered to be the culprit - the same decomposition products argued by some on this thread could cause body load - yet of every single hit many acquantainces, friends, relatives of mine and myself, no subjective physical effects were noted present. The only differences that could be found was 'one hit floored me', 'one hit was not too bad' and 'one hit did practically nothing'.
LucidSDreamr
Bluelighter
what about alkyl isomers at the amide (instead of deithl, dimethyl, or isopropyl/methyl)? like this one an the other mentioned here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylisopropyllysergamide
they are active as lsd (roughly) and probably have slightly different "flavors" to the experience
I don't know what the synth used is.....but don't do you do an amidation of lysergic acid with diethyl amine or something....if the rout is something like this...it would be super easy to just use any other secondary amine to get different analouges of which many are active.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_2-butyl_amide here's another one...sec butyl amide....they have varying affinites for the different 5-Ht receptors so they all probably have qualitatively different experiences.....
can you all stop arguing about this now that i've settled it
scientists/science students are often too wrapped up in trying to make others feel stupid than to actually stop and think about a problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylisopropyllysergamide
they are active as lsd (roughly) and probably have slightly different "flavors" to the experience
I don't know what the synth used is.....but don't do you do an amidation of lysergic acid with diethyl amine or something....if the rout is something like this...it would be super easy to just use any other secondary amine to get different analouges of which many are active.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_2-butyl_amide here's another one...sec butyl amide....they have varying affinites for the different 5-Ht receptors so they all probably have qualitatively different experiences.....
can you all stop arguing about this now that i've settled it
scientists/science students are often too wrapped up in trying to make others feel stupid than to actually stop and think about a problem.
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LSD Cruiser
Bluelighter
You may as well say the LSZ that's been making the rounds from certain vendors is LSD by that logic. GC/MS shows none of that has been the case.