Where was I? The story, and ANOTHER reason to avoid anti-d's

[PhreeX]

Yes, I have been gone for the last month or so.... what happened?
Well, in the simplest terms - I was suffering from withdrawal symptoms of a drug, the withdrawal was SO SEVERE I missed 27 days of work, and had it not been for a few friends (including two BL'ers) I would have probably just killed myself - yeah, the easy way out .... so, was it heroin? amphetamines?
Nope, it was WELLBUTRIN - yes, the anti-depressant ... some background -
I had killed my narcotics supply about a week prior to all this, so yeah, I sucked it up and did my 4 days of muscle cramps, etc... no big deal, I do it every month... so, I have BEEN CLEAN OF NARCOTICS FOR A WEEK, and the NARCOTIC withdrawal was OVER ... my life was good... sure, some smack makes the day brighter, but I was doing fine on my combo of meds... for about 2 1/2 years I have taken the following on a daily basis -
200mg Wellbutrin, twice a day (of course I started on a lower dose but moved up to that)
1mg Klonopin, three times a day/as needed
I tooks my pills every day - no big deal, hell, I honestly didn't notice much difference... but I took the meds anyway....
Ok, about a month ago its decided I move to Wellbutrin SR - 200mg twice a day, so the drug would be more steady in it's levels... my doc gives me the two scripts - 120 of the 100mg Wellbutrin SR tabs, and 90 of the 1mg Klonopin... off to the pharmacy... it's nothing that great so I leave and return the next day... "Ok Mr. PhreeX, your total is $257" - WHAT? I pulled my insurance card and she explained that the Wellbutrin SR was closed-formulary, she could only give me the Klonopin for the usual $5 co-pay.... ok I think, whatever, it's not like those fucking pills did anything - right?
Now remember, I was NARCOTIC FREE for a full week, feeling great, going to work, getting up an hour early every day to watch "A Dating Story" (on TLC) ... I go home, take 2-3mg Klonopin and pass out... well, the next morning I feel a little sluggish - dah! Probably the excess Klonopin and Hard Lemonade ... it was my day off btw... I gradually got worse and by that night I was getting rough.. I threw back 5mg of Klonopin ... I was able to sleep for about 3 hours (usually 5mg will lay me out for a solid 12 hours, and nothing short of a nuclear bomb would wake me up) ... I just felt like shit, I got out of bed and then threw up... I felt like I had electricity running through my body - not fun....
I get a little more sleep but wake up late so tired I can hardly dial the absent line... no work that day... the next few days were hell... I was either sleeping with the aide of anything available or awake, pacing my room, thinking about how bad my life sucked ... for a solid week it was nothing but mental anguish and some weird pains...
I maintained myself off benzos - the only way I could manage a hint of sanity was to be so doped up on tranqualizers I was oblivious to my surroundings and situation, at the end of week one I was probably taking 5mg Klonopin every 8 hours, and still couldnt get out bed - I didn't have the energy or desire ... I called in everyday but just didn't care if I lost the job or not.. I slowly began to lower the Klonopin dose but mentally it was pure hell..
I had a few good moments, such as when a fellow BL'er brought over a few of HIS LAST Vicodin - it helped a good bit, but when that wore off it was back to sleepless nights and being to tired to go to work or so much as leave the house (not that I have a reason to anyway) .. the other bright spot was when I had some 50ug and 100ug fentanyl patches - still, the high just oblivated the depression ...
I must also thank that VERY SPECIAL BL'er who will forever have a place in my heart - you know who you are!
Finally after about a month sans Wellbutrin I am feeling better.. I still need benzos for the anxiety, and getting up every day is a fucking task to say the least..
Ok, the point of this? I wanted to make a point... I have been on 3 month heroin binges where I was IV'ing well over a gram a day - 3 months STRAIGHT ... yeah, the withdrawal sucked, but compared to Wellbutrin it was a walk through a field of poppies .. phyiscal symtoms are one thing, but even after a 6 month meth binge (3 grams IV per day!) the mental hell was NEVER THAT BAD!
I am one who realizes "you do thedrug, expect the side effects" - who would have thought Wellbutrin would be the drug to kick my ass?
I started with the anti-d's because I didn't feel that great - I don't think they really helped that much, but once I was yanked off them, the gates of hell were open and I was the guest of honor!
So, if you don't feel that great, an anti-d of some sort MIGHT be the answer, but more then likely it's just the doctors way of saying "go away" ...
Please, no replies of sympathy to this thread... I did it to myself (kinda, insurance fucked up but I allowed myself to become dependant on it) .. I just wanted to share the experience so others might consider saying 'NO' when your doctors answer to insomnia is 40mg Prozac...
Now (obviously) the opiates were the answer to feeling better - they will remedy ANY problem! But I really gotta wonder, would something like 10mg OxyContin every 12 hours REALLY be any worse then these anti-d's?
This has motivated me to start back up on my research into the use of opiates as anti-d's..
But now I am back, time to regulate!
Oh, I have decided to stay off the Wellbutrin but hang on to some benzos for the anxiety...
-PhreeX
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# unzip ; strip ; touch ; finger ; mount ; fsck ; more ; yes ; umount ; sleep

 

[TheTripDoctor]

Well, this aint sympathy but we need to converse on the topic of opiate anti-d's, ive been looking into how to make the natural endorphins effetive enough to not require external opiates, such as eating a diet rich in endorphin precursors, or my little toy idea , a Selective endorphin reuptake inhibitor, SERI, if they even DO uptake into anything at all it would work, but that is the step stone we would have to find out. You could also toy with slowing there elimination in the body and work on altering some things that allow them to work better, in any case these are the mild answers i hope to discover so that ANYONE could help a bit if they need it, but the answer for now is still real opiate agonists, and oxycontin is the best for now, its time released to provide the constant up and no rebounds really, and you dont need much just to feel a little better we arent taking getting high all day, and a 10-20mg oxy q8-10 would be extreemly effective im sure.
Moral of phreex' story, NO FUCKING SSRIS, or anything of the like, how in the fuck can a doc realisticly expect prozac or any other ssri to help you sleep, i fucking got celexa when i said something about it to mine, but then again i got scripts for fentanyl patches and oxycontin 40s a week later so i dont know about him lol.
NO SSRIS! copious opiates!
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~The Recreational Pharmacist
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FUCK plur
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AIM: TheTripDoctor

 

[PhreeX]

I wouldn't mind hearing others stories - what about other anti-d's? Is it just Wellbutrin or are they ALL this nasty?
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# unzip ; strip ; touch ; finger ; mount ; fsck ; more ; yes ; umount ; sleep

 

[sunstroke]

I've been taking Buprenorphine for my depression for about three months now, 0.2mgs twice a day (self medicating). Its going really well, their very effective. Bup has amazing mood improving qualitys, completely removed my social anixety, huge difference in my motivation etc....
Wouldn't mind switching to oxycontins though.
I went though all the bullshite SSRI's, trics, etc.... they either didn't work or made me feel worse.
I've heard so many people with depression say after (for example) an operation to remove their wisdom teeth that vicodin completely lifted the storm clouds within hours, and how much better they compared to their regular ad's.
Methadone, codeine and even darvon have all been mentioned as potiental ad's.

 

[PhreeX]

Oh, I agree 100% - opiates are WONDERFULL anti-depressants... I wrote a huge thesis on the theory and proposed implementation, but it was shot down, saying it is not "fixing" the depressed brain, just getting the user "high" ... I had a number of other reasons - all shot down by the medical pros that evaluated it.... I think the biggest issue is how do you deduce someone elidgible for the program? As of now, you dont get dope unless you have PHYSICAL INJURIES, but if we made it so all you had to do was say "oh, I'm depressed", the fear is the world would be hooked on opiates...
I have a paper on my other computer, which as of now is dead

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# unzip ; strip ; touch ; finger ; mount ; fsck ; more ; yes ; umount ; sleep

 

[lasergyrl]

While on a plane a bit ago, I read an article in Discover magazine, talking about Prozac. Apparently when the brain is on it for an extended period of time, the receptors of the brain get swollen on the ends similar to what happens from excessive mdma ussage. It seems that once these drugs are tested to be safe, there is not a whole lot of testing as to the long range effects of the drugs. They make all these magic pills to fix everything, and they don't do the research for what happens in the long run. Sometimes I think it's all about the money the drug companies can make. I have been on so many meds that didn't help for my problems. I am better off now with out them.

 

[romancat]

Heroin works great for people that suffer from depression, the only problem is when you actually need to quit.I was really depressed when I was trying to get off heroin after 15 years of self medicating with it,I even tried to put my life to rest with the ultimate shot but my tolerance was so high that I just woke up few hours later with the rig still in my flesh. I had been seeing psychiatrist, psycologists since my early teens, tried a whole bunch different anti-ds nothing ever worked, then I discovered opiates..... I still lived with my dad that is a doctor so I had all sort of samples to try.Then I got to heroin..... was I in love! After 15 years of continuos use (of course I kicked here and there for few days , but it never lasted) I really needed to stop: mainly my veins were getting hard to hit, money was never a problem 'cause I alwasys managed to keep a job during my addiction. Then I got busted: jail, probation---> UA's, I couldn't go back to jail every week ,so I decided to see my doctor for antidepressants. I tried Wellbutrin and it worked great for me: I could stay clean and I didn't even want to kill myself..... a few months down the road I had a seizure , just out of the blue ,it scared the shit out of me. Then I had a couple more and my doctor told me that wellbutrin lowers your "seizure threshold" so I switched to efexor but wasn't satisfied.After that I got on the buprenorphine study. The study lasted a year and finished in january, I am still clean but dealing with depression, sometimes I don't even want to get out of bed and my apartment looks like a squat, other days I'm just fine; I'm still looking for the right solution. I'm glad that wellbutrin gave me seizures after all, it doesn't sound like something anybody should use for prolongued periods.The worst thing being that I was never given the heads up from my doctor about the dependency issues of wellbutrin.

 

[descend]

I can totally relate. I've been taking 150mg/day of Zoloft for over a year. With the advice from my doctor I started to wean off of them an lowered my dosage to 50mg a day for a month and then down to 25mg a day. It has been about 3 weeks without taking any Zoloft and it has sucked. I get the electrical shock feeling in my arms and legs all the time. I have felt restless and my sleep pattern has become non-existant. It is really hard to fall asleep, and then I when I finally get to sleep it's almost impossible get a full night of rest. I'm constantly tired all the time. I definitely notice that I have been really irritable, as well.
I've taken benzo's daily in the past for months at a time and I have never got the problems that I have gotten from coming off of Zoloft. These days doctors give out ssri's like candy and usually with dosage the sky's the limit. They made sure to tell me how bad Xanax was and monitored my usage pretty tight. Zoloft's negative effects were never mentioned and it seemed every time I went to the doctor for a check-up they tried to raise my dosage. Shit, I'm glad I was only on it for 15 months; I couldn't imagine what it's like for people that come off of ssri's after years and years of usage.

 

[fizzygirl]

This is something that, even though this type of information, and personal stories are out there, you dont hear as much from the doctors that prescribe the meds--sometimes more often than they should. I just recently left a job with a state mental health agency, where i was responsible for monitoring people living on their own w/ appts, meds and other things. There were several times when one of our doctors would take someone completely off of an anti-depressant or an anti-psychotic to either decrease the total meds they were taking, or to try to switch them to one of the newer (the therefore "obviously" better meds). I saw so many people go from being able to live reletively independently, to being hospitalized for months. Some of these drugs have become so mainstream in society that we dont really think of them having the power that they do.
Glad to hear the dark cloud has passed.

Please consider sharing your story of side effects from withdrawl with your doctor--it may actually benefit others. Aside from this..if anyone finds themselves not able to pay for a type of meds they need--especially mental health meds, get back in touch with the doctor..most companies that manufacture these drugs allow for a certain amount of vouchers each year.
~brooke~

 

[~edemon]

Well, I was prescribed Paxil a few years back for, basically, undiagnosed manic depression. I was on it for approximately a year. The time spent by me in the torturous clutches of this poison from the flaming pits of hell was reason for suicide enough. Now, when I decided that I would like to try to move on with my life Paxil-free and see if I could face the day without the 'aid' of an SSRI, the real fucking excruciation began to surface. Never before have I felt like my soul, personality and entire drive and will had been brutally and repeatedly raped and stolen away from me in such a manner that to this day it sickens as it terrifies me and leaves me completely baffled as to how I possibly made it through such a physical and emotional devastation. Paxil is pharmaceutical evil and anguish in pill form and should be as illegal to obtain as a nuclear warhead. Sorry, I don't like Paxil. On the bright side, however, the one and only good side effect was this; every time that I urinated- every single time and I'm not lying or exaggerating- it felt like I was having a very satisfactory orgasm. No shit. It felt like cumming every time I peed and for the entirety of the pee session. Other than that, though, I was ready to tear into my flesh with shards of glass to stop this horrible poison from coursing through my veins.

 

[luv rolling]

I was prescribed 20 mg prozac when i was depressed from rolling too much.it really helped me cleanup my life.. the only problem with it were the sexual side-effects.. I dont think I was dependent on it, after I got off it I felt a lot better but still wasnt like as happy as i used to be. At least I didnt vomit or anything like from paxil. I wouldnt take paxil anyway that shit is crap. I think prozac is the safest and best working ssri out there. Nothing better than it. I want to get back on it.. as soon as i get another dr. im getting back on it. I was offered wellbutrin along with effexor as my anti-depressants but i chose prozac because of how it doesnt fuck with your brain as much as the other two, try prozac man it's better than wellbutrin dont try opiates for anti depressants, they are too addictive. That's the only reason why they are anti-d's.. you could say crack/coke/meth/rolls can be anti-depressants too try something that doesnt fuck you up something that just makes you feel normal and is non-addictive.
p.s. when i was on prozac it was easy to sleep too
[This message has been edited by luv rolling (edited 02 September 2001).]

 

[Huwy]

I'd rather be alive AND happy than dead.
Cause I would be dead if it wasn't for me being properly treated on anti-depressants.
Simple choice.
Bag them all you like because they didnt give you the high you wanted - then go shoot up down a lane.

 

[romancat]

Huwi... you are an idiot! Nobody was trying to get high off anti-ds ... we know better!

 

[sunstroke]

Buprenorphine: Treatment for detoxification, maintenance and
Major depressive disorders?
Buprenorphine: Treating Narcotic Abuse With A Unique Opiod
The development of Buprenorphine, an Opiod with reduced dependence and abuse potential, has made possible the reevaluation of specific opiods for the treatment of depressive disorders as well as a first line treatment for the detoxification of Opiate/Opiod DDPs. This is significant for patients who are unresponsive or intolerant to conventional antidepressant agents including SSRI's (Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Wellbutrin), Tri-Cyclics, or MAO Inhibitors (Monoamine Oxidase).
Buprenorphine was developed in the UK in 1972 and has approval there as a primary treatment for pain relief and opiate detoxification. France recently (1996) added Buprenorphine under the trade name Subutex as its primary therapeutic tool for opiate detoxification. The French utilized data elicited from a joint NIDA-FDA study which has taken place from 1994 through the present at 12 VA
Hospitals in the US as its main evidence in making this decision.
This moves treatment of opiate abuse from the stigma of the methadone clinic into the office of the primary care physician. The US is
looking into this option themselves as the French model has been incredibly successful.
Recently, Drug Czar McCafferty has stated publicly his advocacy of this action.
Highly effective (35 times as powerful as Morphine by volume) as an analgesic, Buprenorphine's unique pharmacological profile of PARTIAL mu agonist and as a full binding kappa receptor antagonist offer an Opiod with virtually NO ABUSE POTENTIAL,
LITTLE TO NO RESPIRATORY DEPRESSION, NO EUPHORIA, and therefore an end to the phenomena known as
physician "opiophobia"
With significantly lower abuse potential than the status quo (Schedule V on the controlled substance list as opposed to Methadone -a Schedule II) referenced further in the preceding paragraph, we are experiencing a paradigm shift in the opiate abuse treatment armamentarium as well as a major discovery and treatment potential for refractory depression and other panic and anxiety psychiatric disorders.
The enkephalins, dynorphins, and endorphins are endogenous opiods which function as neurotransmitters, neuromodulators, and hormones and are involved in the perception of pain, and the modulation of behavior.
Pharmacological studies have defined three classes of Opiod receptors where these endogenous opiods bind; delta, kappa, and mu.
The mu receptor is most commonly associated with euphoria and pain relief.
The kappa receptor is most commonly associated with sedation ( nodding often seen in Heroin addicts).
Underproduction or over-removal (severe re-uptake) of these endogenous opiods can be the cause of many psychiatric disorders ranging from Bipolar Personality disorders to major depressive disorders that often times manifest themselves in severe drug abuse.
Unbeknownst to them, these patients use Opiod medications either illicit or pharmaceutical because they are compelled to attempt to replace the endorphins, dynorphins, and enkephalins (endogenous opiods) that naturally occur in their systems at insufficient levels.
When taking these patients into account, a better term than the word "addict" or DDP (drug dependent person) would be opiate receptor deficie
Buprenorphine's superior efficacy when dealing with these disorders is due to the aforementioned unique pharmacological profile as a PARTIAL MU RECEPTOR AGONIST combined with a FULL KAPPA RECEPTOR ANTAGONIST.
FACT: Buprenorphine is the strongest kappa receptor antagonist currently legal to use anywhere throughout the world. There is a large body of evidence that implicates mu agonists in anxiety and depressive disorders
Fink et al 1970, Kline et al 1977, Angst et al 1979, Pickar et al 1981
Pfeifer et al 1986, Schmauss and Heimrich et al 1988, Frecksa et al 1989,
Matussk and Hoehe et al 1989.)
Reviewing these clinical studies by the aforementioned internationally renowned experts in this field leave little doubt that
mu agonists are powerful anxiolytic and calming agents.
Prior to the development of Buprenorphine, MD's have avoided opiod use in the area of psychiatric disorders since the late 1950's due to the overriding issues of addiction, abuse, sedation, and respiratory depression.
Buprenorphine's development compels reevaluation of this specific Opiod in this armamentarium as we now have a mu agonist that deals directly with these concerns and issues.
The kappa antagonism of Buprenorphine also offers a new approach in the treatment of depressive disorders. Clinical studies have shown that the overproduction or under-removal of the endogenous kappa agonist dynorphin can have a direct causal relationship with various depressive disorders.
Therefore, a kappa antagonist would be of great clinical value in this treatment paradigm.
Buprenorphine is the strongest kappa antagonist currently available for clinical use.
Buprenorphine's unique pharmacological profile referenced earlier make it the only medication that offers this concurrent treatment alternative.
Additionally, clinical studies suggest that Buprenorphine increases the levels of the neurotransmitter dopamine in the brain pathways that control pleasure indicating a third method of effect. (See reference 3 below)
Conventional antidepressants and antipsychotics work gradually over a period of weeks or months, whereas maximal benefit is
apparent with Buprenorphine in a matter of days and in some cases hours.
After undergoing treatment with Buprenorphine, patients report an almost immediate improvement in function, an elevation of mood, and a general feeling of contentment. The fact that a rapid alteration in mental state can be produced by a pharmacological agent suggest an alternate theory to that of treatment with conventional antidepressants and the slow adaptive changes that are associated with simultaneous psychotherapeutic treatment.
A recent clinical study at Johns Hopkins University Dept of Psychiatry of Buprenorphine and its efficacy in psychiatric disorders, a number of patients received a complete remission of the symptoms of depression based on the universally used Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression.

 

[Dr_Rolls_MD[MA]]

I cannot say that my experience was anything like the horror stories I've been reading, but the shit did effect me negatively too.
Before anything, holy shit, I come back to BL from a month or so break to find an 'epidemic' type thing going on w/anti-d's. Shit!!!
I was prescribed Effexor(venlafaxine), rather a SNRI, not a SSRI. It's funny though, how my psychologist got me on it. He pretty much laid out a chart w/ a list of anti-d's about a page long and asked me to pick one out on my own? WTF is that? Is this some kind of blind luck deal or something? He's the pro, he should know what would be most effective. So we talk it over, I ask him a few ?'s, and I get the Effexor.
I started out on low doses for a couple of weeks. The stomach pain was unbearable though, like swallowing a box of razor blades. I was in in-patient treatment when I started it, so the nurse always gave it to me in the morning. yeah, another smooth move. I fuckin slept all day, through all of my group therapy shit(actually I'm glad for that), and all night. I wasn't awake much ever and I never really ate for a week!!!
After 7 days I was released and continued to take it, the dose increasing weekly(3rd week i was at 300mg). Fuck, the sexual side-effects were terrible. My dick was completely numb. I had no desire for sex at all, nor was I ever aroused, no matter what. For all I cared, girls could've been non-existant without me having any bad feelings about it. That's definately not me normally.
That was enough. I stopped it after 3-4 weeks already, but I didn't have any withdrawl symptoms, I don't think. I guess the only thing that lingered was the sexual disfunction, for about 3 to 4 weeks. No big deal in the long run, thankfully.
My point is, once I stopped doing anti-d's, I never felt better in my whole life. About 6 weeks after I discontinued it, I had a smile on my fuckin' face 100% of the time. All of my anxiety and depression vanished and I had the hap-hap-happiest days since 'bing crosby tapped danced with danny fuckin' k'. I'm on top of the world now, all after I stopped doing the SNRI's. While I was on them, it was the total opposite. I don't believe for a second that this shit miraculously fixed me in the short time I took them. No fucking way!!!
I thought effexor was supposed to have higher remission rates? Not from what I've heard. I've talked to other people that were on it, but they didn't describe anything close to the negatives I had, some close though. Could it be just me with this shit?
My experience might not relate completely to the topic, but this is what happened to me and I HATED it all, and never again will I be coerced into taking any anti-depressant. Yes, opiates are great, I'm glad you guys are doing something better and 100% safer. Good luck to all of you.
One more thing, I really enjoyed hearing my psychologist tell me, 'Nobody really knows what this medication does exactly, it's all new, we're just starting to find out what all of the good and bad effects are.' --Well, fuck you, I'm not your fucking lab rat anymore.
enough
EOL
[This message has been edited by Dr_Rolls_MD[MA] (edited 02 September 2001).]

 

[AbraMontague]

It is sad that doctors are starting to prescribe wellbutrin for ADHD. Adderall seems a LOT safer to me.
There are similar experiences reported on erowid. These is from a paper about a guy trying to quit smoking:
"...Bupropion HCL in a sustained-release pill form. I took this medication. "Clang!" It felt like there was a part of my mind that had been moving and fluid that was suddenly and violently stopped. It was an extremely unpleasant event. That first evening after my first ingestion, at half doses, I woke up and my vision had degraded. Soon other, increasingly unpleasant side effects began appearing: lost libido, tremors, headaches, etc. This was not like my earlier withdrawal episodes, but, at the very least, my urge to smoke was gone."
I don't think wellbutrin and bupropion are the same drug but they are closely related dopaminergics.

 

[fizzygirl]

your 'psychiatrist'---not your 'psychologist'...sorry, pet peeve of mine

 

[Dr_Rolls_MD[MA]]

ahhhhh, fizzygirl, you are correct, my bad. Excuse me, I haven't slept for a long while and I can barely think anymore.

Good night! zzzzzzzzzzzzz. Fuck, I wanna sleep. grrrrrrr. Benzo's, anyone? anyone? shit.

 

[BustaFazoo]

I was the dumb fuck that took too many purple wellbutrins (150 mg)....
hardest most extreme mind fuck trip of my life... "thought i was gonna die".
... yea... that was me... -and yes it was stupid.
Wellbutrin is the tool of the devil!!!

 

[Brainrape]

This comes along right in time, I was right about to start taking Wellbutrin, I have a couple of bottles given to me by a friend's dad, I was going to use them not so much as an anti-depressant but to help quit smoking...
This is the second major horror story I have heard about Wellbutrin.
But I think this story beats PhreeX's just because of the sheer mindfuck it was.
A friend was taking Wellbutrin for a few months for depression, anyways, he goes to bed one day and goes into a real intense sleep.
In his sleep he lives approx 4 years of his life, and not in any rapid fashion, DAY by DAY, he graduates college, meets a girl, has kids, has a job the whole fucking nine, yards, everything thing down to the minutest detail, all the way down to having broken his leg for a period, having a "friend" die (who he had met in this dream world) essentially, a whole life....
And then he wakes up, and none of it had happened, he was still 19, right out of high school, still living at home...it was all just a dream
Needless to say it fucked with his head for quite awhile. An odd Descartes nightmare that still leaves him wondering if he will wake-up and never really met me etc etc...
Just imagine that you go to bed tonight, and wake-up and you are back in high school, and everything that has happened since then (every roll you took, every BL post, every girl you fucked) since then, never really happened, you have dreamed this whole life up...
Anyways, Wellbutrin is the tool of the devil, I may still try it, you know, gotta try everything once, but it's comforting to hear another horror story, from a different angle...
Good luck...
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Lying on the stained wretched sheets with a bleeding virgin, we could plan a murder or start a religion...