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When Christ says to Love and turn the other cheek

Your want to live is an unreadiness to die which would be said to be fear.
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No. It's a matter of perspective. You might look at everything through your fear goggles, but I don't.
Although Western society (in general, not just religion) teach us to fear death, that is not the only way.
You can accept death, meditate on it, and understand it. You can want to live, without fearing anything.
Teaching people (particularly children) that you need fear is the wrong way to approach life IMO.
We shouldn't be afraid of death. Our attitudes towards death (in the Western world) or backwards.
We fear the unknown. Death is kept at a distance from us.

The entire framework of our society is wrong, convincing us to be afraid of death.
I'm not buying what they're selling. And, I'm not buying what you're selling.
(Incidentally, this is a figure of speech. I know you're not literally selling anything.)

You still haven't explained why we need to fear anything.

Your want to live is an unreadiness to die which would be said to be fear.
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Would be said by whom?
Not me.

Is our desire to have sex really the fear of not having sex?
Is our desire to eat merely the fear of starvation?
Because, it doesn't have to be.

I have sex because I enjoy it. This isn't motivated by fear.
The same thing goes for food. If I don't eat, I feel bad.
I'm not afraid of feeling bad. I'd just rather feel good.

I'm not suggesting that fear can be removed entirely, but it isn't (read: shouldn't be) at the core of our motivations.
As far as criminal acts go, it is better to teach people why they shouldn't do something.

It is better for people to understand right and wrong and act accordingly... Rather than saying "if you do this, you'll be punished". There's an enormous amount of research to support this.

I am a stone cold atheist.
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That may be so, but you were brought up Christian and you haven't excreted some of the shit they put in your brain (no offense intended).
 
We do not need to teach fear to children at all. It is already hardwired.

Our desire to have sex is the fear of not propagating the species.
Our desire to eat IS the fear of starvation.
Yes, it has to be.

You enjoy it because you have the desire which is a priori to fear.
If you don't eat you feel hunger.
Because feeling good is the condition on which life bases itself on; even on the microscopic level. If an organism is alive then it is functioning.

Ah but I would say if you are looking to truly understand the base of human emotions, and human drive, then you would arrive at this foundation level of awareness.

I rejected the church at age 8. I recently just got into religion through Zizek and his various books. Monstrosity of Christ. God in Pain. Etc, etc. It is a musing and nothing more.
 
We do not need to teach fear to children at all. It is already hardwired.
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Yes, so (ideally) we teach them NOT to fear.
If it's already hardwired, why re-enforce it?

There's a difference, I think, between people and animals.
Animals eat for fear of starvation.
People are capable of reason.
We no longer need to fear.

if you are looking to truly understand the base of human emotions, and human drive, then you would arrive at this foundation level of awareness.
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There are a lot of great spiritual leaders that disagree with you.
 
I think that reward is a much better motivator then fear. They are similar but basically inversions of each other. People eat to feel satiated and content, not for the fear of lacking that.
 
I agree reward is a better motivator. I have also been motivated by forms of fear which is suffering. But I'm not sure so much its the fear of it or just not wanting to experience it anymore because, well it sucks. Am I afraid of it? To a certain extent but really I choose contentedness over hopelessness.

Fear being the only motivator I believe is False but fear alone leading back to fear of death could be accurate.
Now that I'm tracing things back fear really is a big motivator. The fear may not be at the surface but when traced back it leads back to fear. Ex. Exercise--I exercise because I want to feel good. Why do I want to feel good because I don't want to feel bad. I don't want to feel bad because I'll become depressed. In the end I may kill myself

There is also a combination of motivators but fear seems to have quite a role in alot of things but its a healthy one and may not be recognized as fear of at first. Really though its not necessary to know or debate regardless of the motivation. Anything that motivates me to do good is good. But I realize fear is a negative emotion but can be used as a tool.

Example of a seemingly harmless fear that leads back to the fear of death

----I don't want to public speak. I don't want to public speak because I get nervous and shakey. I may get nervous and shakey and not be able to speak. People may laugh at me and not like me. If people don't like me I can't make any friends. If I don't have any friends i'll be alone and miserable. If I'm alone and miserable I will sit home alone and bored. If I do this too much I may lose my mind and die.

So the idea is that one seemingly harmless fear leads back to fear of death. I argue that I'm not afraid to die because I feel I know what happens but if the time were to come being held at gunpoint I'd probably think I havn't accomplished enough and that I'm not ready. So saying your not afraid to die and actually knowing it when held at gunpoint could be two different things.

I still agree that Reward is a better motivator and my main motivator but most is done from fear.
 
i find that you can't disclaim offense by posting "no offense intended" after your offensive post. that offense was not intended is never a guarantee that offense was not caused.

indeed, it's telling that somebody believes enough that they may have offended to add that postscript so, demonstrably, they admit that they may have offended. so why not just reword or remove the offensive statement intended to not offend?

fear comes in many forms.

alasdair
 
Shrooms00087 said:
We do not need to teach fear to children at all. It is already hardwired.

Our desire to have sex is the fear of not propagating the species.
Our desire to eat IS the fear of starvation.
Yes, it has to be.

You enjoy it because you have the desire which is a priori to fear.
If you don't eat you feel hunger.
Because feeling good is the condition on which life bases itself on; even on the microscopic level. If an organism is alive then it is functioning.

Ah but I would say if you are looking to truly understand the base of human emotions, and human drive, then you would arrive at this foundation level of awareness.

I rejected the church at age 8. I recently just got into religion through Zizek and his various books. Monstrosity of Christ. God in Pain. Etc, etc. It is a musing and nothing more.
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At a core survival level, fear is one of the strongest motivators or perhaps the strongest. However we have moved far beyond the core of animal survival. Of course there are people who still aren't sure they will have enough food to survive, and those people fear going hungry. But I get up every morning assured that I will be able to feed myself, and for me, eating has become entirely a pleasure. I do it, and I cook my food, because I truly enjoy it; it brings me joy. Fear is not associate with it in any way. Similarly, I have no fear associated with sex. It's entirely the opposite, sex to me is a beautiful celebration of life. Whether I end up with a child or not is not something I worry about.

We are able to live lives that need not be dominated by fear. Even some of the examples you gave seem like a stretch. It somewhat disturbs me that you seem so focused on relating everything to fear, as if you want it to be true, but I think that if you think about it hard, you'd have to agree that fear is not the only motivator, nor the best one. To teach someone not to behave a certain way out of fear of punishment creates neuroses and avoidance behavior. It produces a person who does things for the wrong reasons. Whereas if you teach someone through reinforcement and understanding, they are able to arrive at a reasoned conclusion as to why they should behave a certain way. Why is that I don't go out and screw people over? It's not because I fear being a bad person, or because I fear being punished if I do, or because I fear the law, or whatever. It's because I believe we are all part of the same thing, that we're in this together, so it makes no sense to hurt someone else (I mean, unless they're trying to hurt me or someone I love). Plus, I feel good when I make someone else feel good. Fear is not factored into my morality, and I'm a better and happier person for that because my morality is truly my own. Enforcing morality through fear forces someone into a specific morality that is not truly their own, but rather has been beaten into them.

Life is much more beautiful when you choose your actions based on love and understanding than when you choose them based on fear. We have the ability to live that way because we are intelligent, self-aware creatures with the power of cognitive reasoning. It seems very sad to me to insist upon sticking to the animalistic fear path. Of course everyone is partly motivated by fear, but there is much more to being human than that.
 
All I am saying is no matter if you like reward as the teacher or fear, you're going to end up being in fear. If it's fear of Karma, fear of being a bad person, fear of not living up to your standards, or even if a guru says you must not fear; you're fearing fear. You can choose not to "teach" it but you cannot escape it.
 
There will always be sources of fear that we sometimes feel, but I do not fear karma, nor do I fear being a bad person. I did for a time (I feared I had become a bad person while I was addicted to opiates), but I don't anymore, nor did I before that. Why would I fear being a bad person? I'm not a bad person, and I am comfortable with my morality. That part just doesn't compute for me. I'm sure there are people who operate that way but it's certainly not inevitable.
 
Just because you are not cognizant of an unconscious process does not mean it isn't happening.
 
Well I guess we can agree to disagree. In any case the real point I was trying to make originally was that I think there are much better ways to teach than through fear. As someone else said, there is loads of evidence in the form of studies to suggest this.
 
I would just say we agree. Teaching fear is to bring it to the fore and this can be done in various ways even present in Buddhism.
 
Some Guru's will tell you "All fear is an illusion". I think some get to the point beyond fear. In a spiritual sense. I'm not talking about if your in physical danger or you get stranded on an island. I'm talking about overall.
 
Fear is an unconscious process. It is the same as desiring a commodity without calling it sex. To say "All fear is an illusion" I'd ask what made you come to that conclusion? Obviously it was a fear of fear, to break from fear, which is still fear.
 
Perhaps I can even clear up the word fear in a more detailed manor.

Fear is when a person acts antagonistically toward an event or thought. To act antagonistically toward antagonism is still a person acting antagonistically toward an event or thought.
 
That seems like meaningless wordplay. When I do something out of joy or love, I am not doing it because I fear not acting out of joy or love. I do it because those feelings inspire that action in me. It's the opposite of fear.
 
Xorkoth said:
That seems like meaningless wordplay. When I do something out of joy or love, I am not doing it because I fear not acting out of joy or love. I do it because those feelings inspire that action in me. It's the opposite of fear.
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Eh I'm not so sure. Boil it all down and you would get the essence of the matter.
 
If someone hurts you, turn the other cheek (forgive) and then when when they spank that cheek its strike 2...then when the third attack happens and you're fresh out of cheeks , bring out the sword and stab em .
 
when we teach children it is always better to tell them what they can do, rather than obsess over what they shouldn't do. the rest is built -in like shrooms said. we get crippled by all the no's when all we want is a way to get a yes. funnel that energy into a path that'll get them their hearts desire and they'll follow it like a beacon. Teaching with don'ts limits growth. We all do it, but we should try to do it less. Now I gotta spend all this time weeding this shit out of my psyche. Thanks mom, thanks dad and love you guys.
 
Shrooms00087 said:
Fear is an unconscious process. It is the same as desiring a commodity without calling it sex. To say "All fear is an illusion" I'd ask what made you come to that conclusion? Obviously it was a fear of fear, to break from fear, which is still fear.
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Fear is both conscious and unconscious. Just like guilt.
I came to the conclusion that all fear is an illusion due to fear? Haha you don't stop with this huh. First I didn't say I came to the conclusion I was speaking of what some guru's say. But if I wanted to get really deep with it I can see the truth in it because the minds fears are mostly not true but a part of us believes in them. Its always best to walk through the fear and when on the other side it is realized that yes fear prior to action is an illusion in most cases.

If everything is done out of fear and its unconscious then I wouldn't think there would be any way to prove that this is the truth. Anyway thats enough for me. I probably wouldn't have carried this on this much had I not been bored. So what have we learned? Fear is the biggest motivator? Or everyone does everything including fart due to fear? I guess regardless it doesn't matter.

Time for bed. Afraid I might be tired tomorrow if I don't sleep tonight. OK, ok this is gone too far. I'm just being a sick. I'm giving myself a warning.
 
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