whats your plant nemesis

[hobhead]

^^^And then we're not even considering that people that use cannabis every day often become total fucking retards (mental health).

not always so, as although i do not use daily, i have friends that have done so for ages and they function well in society .
i,on the other hand, would be a mess if i was hitting the chronic daily .

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

Yeah, no regular smoking here either. It's great to have a few days where you toke all day long and relax but more than a few days of that I REALLY burn out badly and feel awful. I don't get how people can do it every day. I prefer to spend most of my life sober. It just makes everything feel better and if you want to indulge here and there, no guilt.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

Cannabis fucks with your immune system.
This either causes cancer or increases the chance of (opportunistic) infection.
Either way, excess fiddling with immunomodulating substances is always bad for your health.

Sources? I am studying addictions counseling and I hear the anti-drug contingency (among my peers and professors) making these claims but whenever I've tried to find substantiation I've only found it was a myth.

Regarding the cancer connection, the recent studies have been pretty clear...


Study Finds No Cancer-Marijuana Connection

Marijuana Cuts Lung Cancer Tumor Growth In Half, Study Shows

THC (marijuana) helps cure cancer says Harvard study


There are lots of reason that marijuana can be detrimental to an individual, but to my knowledge, immunomodulation and carcinogenesis are not among them.

 

[asecin]

Sources? I am studying addictions counseling and I hear the anti-drug contingency (among my peers and professors) making these claims but whenever I've tried to find substantiation I've only found it was a myth.

Regarding the cancer connection, the recent studies have been pretty clear...


Study Finds No Cancer-Marijuana Connection

Marijuana Cuts Lung Cancer Tumor Growth In Half, Study Shows

THC (marijuana) helps cure cancer says Harvard study


There are lots of reason that marijuana can be detrimental to an individual, but to my knowledge, immunomodulation and carcinogenesis are not among them.

outdated articles. Friday, May 26, 2006


this one is just recent and clearly states all combined info from the past does prove it is immuno suppression and definitely many diseases associated with it:
http://www.empowher.com/cancer/cont...igger-immune-suppression-increase-cancer-risk

this about the prevention of lung cancer is absolute crap. no way in hell you can inhale burned fumes and prevent lung cancer. i read articles years ago that if you combine cigs with marijuana you have triple chance of lung cancer.

 

[delta_9]

Smoking anything is not exactly "good" for you. Inhaling smoke will damage lung alveoli. Period.
The rate at which different smokes will cause problems(cancer, for example) is dependent on many factors though.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

outdated articles. Friday, May 26, 2006


this one is just recent and clearly states all combined info from the past does prove it is immuno suppression and definitely many diseases associated with it:
http://www.empowher.com/cancer/cont...igger-immune-suppression-increase-cancer-risk

this about the prevention of lung cancer is absolute crap. no way in hell you can inhale burned fumes and prevent lung cancer. i read articles years ago that if you combine cigs with marijuana you have triple chance of lung cancer.

Did you by any chance read that article? It discussed the potential of cannabinoids to increase Myeloid-derived Suppressor Cell production, it didn't say its directly associated with ANY diseases, let alone many.

I take it you skimmed it and saw the list of diseases toward the end of the piece but it listed autoimmune disorders that, if this research proves true, cannabinoids may be BENEFICIAL for, not that they cause.

Generally MDSC's expand in people with cancer, infection and inflammation and they are problematic due to T-cell suppression. This study proposes that cannabis use may increase their production...

According to the study's author -

"These results raise interesting questions on whether increased susceptibility to certain types of cancers or infections caused from smoking marijuana results from induction of MDSCs,"

The study itself doesn't demonstrate ANY actual link to increased cancer rates or disease susceptibility in cannabis users, just that with the findings on the effects cannabis has on MDSC, they theorize it COULD have this effect. Its very interesting research and I look forward to seeing where it goes but this study alone does not justify claims that cannabis increases cancer or disease rates.

Furthermore, this does not at all negate the findings of the studies I referenced. Those studied ACTUAL people and even those who consumed between 11,000 and 22,000 joints worth of marijuana over their lifetime demonstrated ZERO increased susceptibility for head, neck or lung cancer.

The researchers admitted they EXPECTED to find a correlation between heavy cannabis consumption and cancer rates but the research demonstrated none.

You can certainly take the findings of study you referenced and try to pretend like they say that pot DEFINITELY suppresses the immune system and causes cancer and disease and all that, but the research that you cited only definitely demonstrates that cannabis can increase Myeloid-derived Suppressor Cell production which can inhibit T-cell growth which can suppress the immune system... even with this known, the research does not indicate how much THC must be consumed to have an appreciable effect on the immune system.

As I said previously, there are enough demonstrable ill-effects on humans (especially regarding mental health) that you don't need to make unsubstantiated claims about the incidence of adverse health effects.

 

[3rd_I_blind]

Sources? I am studying addictions counseling and I hear the anti-drug contingency (among my peers and professors) making these claims but whenever I've tried to find substantiation I've only found it was a myth.

Either you are doing something wrong, your teachers have fucked up never learning you how to search for articles properly or you are basing your search on biased input/sources.
Anyway, I am not even going to browse the abstracts to quote the most interesting articles.
See for yourself HERE, if need be I have access to most full-text articles.

Something that 'might be beneficial in case of auto-immune disease' does not equal that it is healthy to use it.
Anti-cancer drugs might be beneficial in case of cancer, but actually cause cancer in the healthy individual.
Hormone replacement therapy might be beneficial in case of hormonal imbalances, but really fucks you up if you are just doing fine.
There are plenty of other examples, and since the immune system is an intricately balanced defense mechanism, stating you can fuck with it without consequence really shows a lack of education in the proper area of expertise.

Also, it's kind of interesting you first say immunomodulation by cannabis is a myth.
Only to make a 180 two posts later when it suits you to attack someone else's post.
BTW, I never said using cannabis causes cancer.
I stated that excess immunomodulation EITHER causes cancer OR issues with immunity.

You cannot compare an epidemiologic article with a proof-of-concept article.
Epidemiology has its own questionability, since the difference between correlation and cause-effect relationship is usually hard to distinguish.
Contrastingly, a proof-of-concept article by itself is no definitive evidence either.
Saying an article proves nothing because it is not epidemiologically backed is total bullshit.
It's just what the tobacco lobby was doing for 40 years until they finally were all out of bullshit.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^I was COMPLETELY wrong saying what I did originally about immunomodulation. Part of the reason I was asking for sources is because its a subject I did not know the final word on so when I requested sources it wasn't rhetorical, I wanted to know what lead you to those claims.

I genuinely apologize if you thought I was calling anyone out. I wasn't trying to attack the poster who exposed me to that article or to you, third I. I merely wanted to address the claims asecin made about what the article said.

I apologize for my misstatement about immunomodulation but there's no reason to make personal attacks about my education.

Furthermore, I wasn't AT ALL trying to say that cannabis was "healthy to use" because it might be useful for autoimmune disorders. My only point in mentioning those was to say that the article asecin referenced does not make any claims about 'diseases being associated' with cannabis use. The article was talking about effects on MDSC's and indirect potential effect on the immune system. It made no claims as to actual demonstrable effect IN cannabis users or increased prevalence of those disease in chronic cannabis smokers.

I'm not claiming there is NOT an effect or that they won't find one, just requesting that asecin not use the article to make claims it doesn't support.

 

[3rd_I_blind]

Fair enough then, seems like I misunderstood the tone of your posts.
Then again, my remarkt about your education were not meant as a personal attack either.
I was just genuinely concerned that you either were doing something wrong or did not receive proper explanation how to search for scientific literature, since (with my background) it took me only five seconds to find over 70 articles.

Furthermore, I wasn't AT ALL trying to say that cannabis was "healthy to use" because it might be useful for autoimmune disorders. My only point in mentioning those was to say that the article asecin referenced does not make any claims about 'diseases being associated' with cannabis use. The article was talking about effects on MDSC's and indirect potential effect on the immune system. It made no claims as to actual demonstrable effect IN cannabis users or increased prevalence of those disease in chronic cannabis smokers.

I did not read the specific article, so I'm going to assume you are correct on this one.
As I tried to explain, there is a difference between an epidemiological approach, a clinical approach and a mechanistical approach.
Each approach on its own is worth only a bit, but if you find consistent results on an epidemiological, clinical and mechanistical level, THEN you have solid proof.
Saying that in 10,000 weed smokers you did not see an increase/decrease in cancer can be just as worthless/solid as concluding you find evidence for a metabolic pathway that leads to biomarkers also seen in cancer.

Personally, I think taking a biased position supporting drugs is ten times worse as having a biased position against drugs.
Because the one area in which the pro-drug movement could easily beat those biased retards that are against all drugs is by not resorting to fucking biased research.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

I'm not pro-drugs at all... as I said above, I'm going into addiction counseling! And you're right; accessing and evaluating scientific literature is not a major part of the curriculum to become an addictions counselor.

You make an excellent point though, when I DID search for cannabis' effect on the immune system, it was years ago when I did smoke regularly and I wouldn't be surprised if I cherry-picked and it was lazy of me not to consider this and do a little cursory scouting of the relevant literature before commenting.

I want to thank you and asecin for bringing my attention to the relevant information.

 

[asecin]

3rd_I_blind since you are from holland, do you occasionally visit the coffee shops there ?

 

[Mehm]

Interesting discussion on cannabis here. It seems to me that it is a medicine that should be used when a person is sick, be is spiritually or physically. Overuse and abuse of any medicine can be harmful. I know that cannabis has be very much a mixed bag for me over the years and finally quitting its use was only done with a 12 step program.

I however would not insult the sacred ganja by calling it a nemesis. All plants have their place in the order of things.

 

[hobhead]

^^^sacred! sacred??? that's some superstition you got going there mehm .

nothing is sacred unless everything is sacred .

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^if everything IS sacred, then nothing is!

 

[dokomo]

I personally cannot stand broccoli. Its just so nutritionally awesome, but I rather hate eating it.

Give me some fresh spinach or kale any day %)

 

[3rd_I_blind]

3rd_I_blind since you are from holland, do you occasionally visit the coffee shops there ?

Not really, I don't use weed and most coffeeshops are usually filled with the 'wrong' type of weed smoker i.e. the fuck-ups that do nothing all day but smoking weed, drinking cheap-ass beer and collecting welfare cheques.
If they enjoy living their life that way, it's okay with me.
But I tend to avoid them, makes me just sad to see 'em...

I do however visit the smartshop/headshop every now and then.
But I am mostly annoyed by the utter shit they sell as 'natural high' and shit.
Really looks like they have no moral objection to anything; if it's legal and it gets you high they sell it to everybody, even if they know it'll give you eighteen different types of cancer.
Back when you still could get mushrooms it all was a lot better.
Ahhh...the stories about that era I will tell my kids someday...

 

[hobhead]

i have to agree with 3rd eye's take on these two lame businesses . these sort of endeavors only generate money .

 

[ebola?]

Either you are doing something wrong, your teachers have fucked up never learning you how to search for articles properly or you are basing your search on biased input/sources.
Anyway, I am not even going to browse the abstracts to quote the most interesting articles.
See for yourself HERE, if need be I have access to most full-text articles.

I find the tone of your post highly presumptuous. I have seen multiple studies indicating that the effect of cannabis on immune function via CB2 receptor agonism (CB1 effects are less relevant in this case) are not sufficiently strong or global to cause increased susceptibility to infection (while anti-inflammatory effects are useful for suppressing tumor formation and growth), and no more severe than other CNS depressants. The only relevant meta-study of lung-cancer epidemiology that I've seen suggested that cannabis's anti-inflammatory properties offset the mutagenic effects of inhaling smoke (to the point of tempering, slightly, the carcinogenic effects of tobacco smoking in concurrent users), but I think that the jury's out on this one (in terms of replication, longitudinal and otherwise).

Did I become a retard smoking daily during most of the day (from roughly April 2010 to October)? Well, my work-output was certainly sub-nominal, but I think that my statistical analyses and writing remained competent. But yes, it certainly wasn't healthy per se.

ebola

 

[3rd_I_blind]

I find the tone of your post highly presumptuous.

The tone wasn't exactly decent, but I thought that was already dealt with in convy with the poster to which that tone was directed.

I was just about to go off to bed, so forgive me if I am too quick about my response. On the other hand, the fact that I produced this info in a few minutes and while sleepy might indicate there is a lot more to be had.

Here goes nothing:

NSFW:

The systemic immunological effects of cannabinoids have been inferred from evidence ranging from the anecdotal to defined in vivo studies. At the anecdotal level, those who use or abuse marijuana report increase incidences of common infectious diseases, respiratory symptoms and mild GI pathology, each associated with the route of administration [40], [107], [108], [109] and [110]. SOURCE

NSFW:

Inhibition of cell-mediated immunity in marijuana smokers published in 1974 was echoed subsequently by in vivo experiments from the Klein laboratory [37]. Moreover, enhanced mitogen sensitivity and a tendency towards PHA-induced transformation were also observed in lymphocytes isolated from marijuana smokers. Numerous studies in the last two decades have shown that cannabinoid exposure causes a suppression in responsiveness to infectious disease, and the work of the Tashkin laboratory gives us compelling evidence that, even when the confounding effects of smoke components are accounted for, cannabis smoking causes profound inflammatory changes in the respiratory tract [110].
As a final note on this topic, literature dating back to the 1970s documents the consumption of cannabinoids in the form of marijuana and their effect on immunity to infection. It had been suggested that there is a strong correlation between cannabis consumption and an increased susceptibility to various viral infections [35] and [116]. Numerous animal studies followed, involving infectious agents such as the herpes simplex virus, Listeria monocytogenes, Staphylococcus albus, Treponema pallidum and Legionella pneumophila. These data suggest that therapeutic cannabinoids may have the side effect of suppressing host resistance to infection [117]. SOURCE

NSFW:

The physiological effects of cannabinoids on the immune system have been relatively understudied. Similarly, the attention paid to potential immunological side effects of cannabinoid exposure is considerably less than that paid to the neurological implications. => This last part - from the conclusion - illustrates why it might be hard to find studies exploring the adverse immunological effects of cannabis. It's the new wonder drug for auto-immune disease, so you don't dare to emphasize the potential for adverse effects.

Hope this is enough to preserve my credibility for now.
I'm off to bed, eager to read any counter-intelligence to the above information.

 

[punt ya cunt]

I find the tone of your post highly presumptuous. I have seen multiple studies indicating that the effect of cannabis on immune function via CB2 receptor agonism (CB1 effects are less relevant in this case) are not sufficiently strong or global to cause increased susceptibility to infection (while anti-inflammatory effects are useful for suppressing tumor formation and growth), and no more severe than other CNS depressants. The only relevant meta-study of lung-cancer epidemiology that I've seen suggested that cannabis's anti-inflammatory properties offset the mutagenic effects of inhaling smoke (to the point of tempering, slightly, the carcinogenic effects of tobacco smoking in concurrent users), but I think that the jury's out on this one (in terms of replication, longitudinal and otherwise).

Did I become a retard smoking daily during most of the day (from roughly April 2010 to October)? Well, my work-output was certainly sub-nominal, but I think that my statistical analyses and writing remained competent. But yes, it certainly wasn't healthy per se.

ebola