What would happen if drugs were legalised Part 1. MDMA

[Mr Blonde]

I was reffering to portregual, not holland. And I wasnt talking about availability I was talking about the amount of users, which I remember actually decreasing in portregual and remaining stable in holland.

I am aware that we are talking about legalisation here and not decriminalisation, but as no country has put formward legalisation the closest thing we have to make predictions based on is decrimilisation.
Its all well and good to speculate what MIGHT happen, but everything everyone has put forward so far is simply that, speculation.
Im trying to provide actual factual information that we can make educated assumptions based on, not pure speculation.
We cant be sure what would happen, the point im trying to get across by using decrimilisation as an example, is that theres no reason to suggest there would be an increase in use. availability yes, but usage is not directly linked to how easy it is to get although it does play a part.

What im trying to stress, is that (minus this horrible drought) anyone who wants to use MDMA can with relative ease, and that an increase in availability would not directly correspond to an increase in users based on the assumtion that whoever wants to use it is already using it because well put simply, in normal circumstances its not hard to come by...

Speculate all you want, but I'd suggest looking into actual facts on how decrimilisation has affected things before making outlandish claims on legalisation I would love to link everyone, but I'm in study mode and really shouldnt be on bl lol

Outlandish claims? Really? 8)

Decriminalizing is a very different ball game to legalizing. For a start, possession is still against the law, but most importantly availability is not affected by decriminalizing a substance and neither is quality nor regulations.

I mentioned Holland because you mentioned drug tourism, which is not really related to this thread if we assume MDMA is legalized everywhere. In Holland, it was very easy to legitimately buy marijuana and mushrooms and RCs from stores leading to drug tourism. Portugal did not experience this as availability of the same type (e.g. cannabis cafes) was not available; it was just not as bad being caught with a personal use amount.

Again, I have to stress that legalization would be very different to decriminalizing MDMA. It would most likely lead to a big change in how a lot of people view the substance, in addition their perception being changed by it's availability and the safety that would come with a regulated supply. I don't think it's outlandish at all to assume that if people could walk into a place similar to a needle supply or pharmacy perhaps and buy a known amount of MDMA as well as receiving information on it's safe use and not having to worry about being punished for it that people who may not have used it when it was illegal would seriously consider trying it. Not to mention if it was legal, the media might, just might, start printing more realistic stories about it's use.

Even now, if we pretend the drought doesn't exist and it is fairy easy to buy MDMA, it's still illegal, it's considered very dangerous by a lot of people (rightly or wrongly) and it's associated in their mind with drug users who are not considered the greatest members of society to a lot of people. It would take time for perceptions to change so drastically, but they would if MDMA were on a legal level with alcohol and many of the dangers inherent in black market distribution were removed.

I don't need to look up the facts because I have already seen them for decriminalization and are talking about making MDMA legal, something which would be very different in a lot of ways.

For fucks sake anyway, this should be a light hearted, interesting discussion, not something where we have to prove our opinions on something that is at best a long, long time away. Call my opinions outlandish all you want, I'll say the legalizing of MDMA will turn us all into flesh eating zombies if I fucking want to.

 

[Jordan`]

The factual information you seem to think I lack is include in the link above ^

Feel free to flick through at your leisure, its rather interesting actually.

You right, this thread could be extremely informative, and I'm hoping it brings to light some issues.

Are you saying that speculation based on well, nothing, is better than making an educated guess and trying to back it up with pretty much the only example you'll find in regards to this issue?

I study Pharmacutical Sciences, I deal with facts not speculation. You decide which is more credible.

As you said, no where in the world has tried legalisation, so we have nothing to go off in that respect, the next best thing we have is decrimilisation, and I put forward a very good example for your benefit. Disregard it if you must, your loss

A lot of speculation will be based on nothing but there still is anecdotal evidence no matter how miniscule that MDMA should be kept illegal or even legalised in some cases. These personal experiences in my opinion give a much better cultural reflection unique to Australia than the documented Portugal case. I agree with treating drug addicts as medical cases instead of criminals and general users not being incarcerated however what the Portuguese government did around a decade ago might not be right for Australia. It does give us an idea but it's just not enough in my opinion.

Decriminalisation could possibly be the catalyst to seeing drugs in various countries being legalised in the future. It does not mean however that it is credible enough example for a foundation of any sort on Australian drug policy; it could possibly be taken into account but I highly doubt it. The decision should be up to studies based on the Australian demographic despite the possible form of similitude between both countries the cultures are still vastly different.

Thanks for posting the link

 

[L3inad]

Sorry mate, that wasn't directed at you personally. More of a general observation on the thread.

I wasnt intending to have a hack, my apologies if it came across that way. I was merely attempting to bring some factual information to this discussion because we can speculate all day and we still wont have any more of idea of what would happen.

Drug tourism was never the issue, just something that I thought might be worth noting.

FYI, the idea of decriminalisation is that possession is not a criminal offence and does not warrant punishment. You wont be punished for using, so whats to stop you? Same applys for legalization with pretty much the only notable differance being where you get it from, a dealer or a shop.

The cultural aspect was mentioned, and that is definately a factor. However, has anyone looked around the city on any given saturday night? Anyone and everyone is off their heads on illegal drugs, clearly whether a substance is illegal or not makes little differance to the Australian public thats why I cant see it changing much, because were already a bunch of scatter brain pill heads I dont see how legalising MDMA is going to create a large increase in use when everyone who wants to use can already use with relative ease (still dis-regarding the drought here).

The main change I can see happening is just that availability will become constant, usage wont change that much, frequency maybe but not in actual amount of users. I just cant see why it would.

All this talk about people walking into a shop front to buy their gear for the weekend, who do you think is going to be the ones walking in that shop? Exactly the same people that were buying through dealers prior to legalisation, nothing changes.

If we were to see an increase in use it wouldnt be directly relating to the legal status of MDMA, it would be because of the education and awareness that goes with it. If it were to be legalised you would assume the government would properly educate people on it which hasnt been done before, people armed with this new information may indeed decide to try MDMA for the first time, but if this education were to happen now while its still illegal I'd bet my left testicle that you'd see exactly the same change as would happen with legalisation.

EDIT::

Sorry to discredit you jordan but to have anecdotal evidence would imply that someone has actually experienced legalisation of MDMA which to my knowlege has never happened, hence its impossible to have any anecdotal evidence in terms of legilisation and were back to pure speculation lol.
Again my reason for trying to show how decriminalisation would be our best and closest means of trying to predict how legalisation would change things. Also, before legalisation would ever come to fruition there would almost certainly be decriminalisation first which gives more weight to my seemingly solid argument. =P

Im enjoying this hehe

 

[Mr Blonde]

My apologies as well I am very stressed out at the moment and this is only exacerbated my morphine rage.

Though I still don't believe my claims are outlandish.

Decriminalization is not a criminal offence perhaps but you still pay a fine and have your goods confiscated off you. The government continues to distribute propaganda against drugs. If legalization were to occur, there is no way the government could continue to demonize MDMA whilst still allowing it to be bought and sold legally. They would have to give people facts and safe usage guidelines if they were going to allow it to happen, as well as overhauling drug education. The people who now wouldn't touch MDMA and would even perhaps consider it's users as 'junkies' or second class citizens, may change their minds once they are told the real facts about MDMA and see that legalizing it hasn't created anarchy and destruction and mass death. Increase in use won't happen overnight, but it would happen as people start to view the drug as acceptable and safer then they thought before.

This didn't happen with decriminalization because the governments still used their propaganda and availability was not made any safer. A big part of legalizing being successful is that there is a regulated, quality supply and without this there is no point in decriminalizing or legalizing because there is no reduced harm from using aside from a legal perspective.

If we were to see an increase in use it wouldnt be directly relating to the legal status of MDMA, it would be because of the education and awareness that goes with it. If it were to be legalised you would assume the government would properly educate people on it which hasnt been done before, people armed with this new information may indeed decide to try MDMA for the first time, but if this education were to happen now while its still illegal I'd bet my left testicle that you'd see exactly the same change as would happen with legalisation.

Education and awareness will lead to increased use, but not as much as legalizing, a regulated supply AND education would lead to.. The government could start telling the facts about drug use right now, but to a lot of people they would still look upon the whole scene, with dealers, unknown substances and poor quality sometimes, as very hazardous and try to avoid it still.

 

[L3inad]

They would have to give people facts and safe usage guidelines if they were going to allow it to happen, as well as overhauling drug education. The people who now wouldn't touch MDMA and would even perhaps consider it's users as 'junkies' or second class citizens, may change their minds once they are told the real facts about MDMA and see that legalizing it hasn't created anarchy and destruction and mass death.

Just confirmed my argument, thanks ;P

But yeah, what Im saying is that people have little to no regard for the law, and changing it wont make bugger all differance IMHO. Education will be the redeeming factor in any change in MDMA use, and that can happen with or without legalisation. Just because its there doesnt mean EVERYONE is going to use it, only the people who want to and I'm pretty sure that everyone who wants to use it wouldnt be overly concerned with the legislation behind it, aussies just dont give a fuck.

Also wasnt directing the outlandish comment at anyone in particular, so dont be hating! lol

Morphine rage eh? Thought you stuck to the codiene which is effectively mophine i guess.

If only I had enough of CY26 (thats the one isnt it?) to actually metabolise the shit =\

 

[Mr Blonde]

^ CYP2D6 is the enzyme and morphine is vastly superior to codeine in my opinoin. :D

I think there are a lot of potential drug users out there who's reservations are mainly to do with illegality and safety reasons; sure a lot of people use otherwise, but if it was safe, easy and legal to buy MDMA there would be many more people interested in trying it who otherwise may not have considered it. Also, they may either continue to view other drugs in a negative light or perhaps look at whether they are as bad as they thought. Depends on what position the government presents on them, a lot more people then I'd like to believe a lot of what the government tells us.

 

[Jordan`]

Based on standard government propaganda that we see through all advertising mediums I can't help but see an increase in drug use once said drugs are legalised and the government starts educating individuals better. An uneducated person I think would feel rather betrayed in this situation by the body which they abide their lives by don't you think?

To go from fear mongering to what I'd hope to be an informative and well balanced campaign (which is highly unlikely mind you) would be a breath of fresh air. There will always be this extremist form of advertising which despite the more positively geared agenda directed at drug education will still put illicit substances in a bad light. (just look at road safety as well as alcohol and cigarette health campaigns).

I could see these advertisements making an impact on educating the population but are they all for the right reasons? What has changed? The same drug that was once illegal is now legal, how would the general populace fathom that? Did the government really care about the health of Australia? Are they trying to profiteer over a country that has engulfed itself with drug consumption?

I think it's safe to say MDMA should be available for research purposes and medical applications but legalising all together is pretty steep.

 

[Mr Blonde]

^ I too think legalization would be a steep step, but I think it would be a great step towards reducing crime and preventing a great deal of harm to people. If we can reduce the stigma associated with drug use, we can encourage people to seek treatment more often.

I can see the other guys point about education being important and being what will possibly lead more people who have been deceived up to this point to maybe consider trying drugs, but that education and frankness will not happen unless these drugs are legalized or their status greatly reduced I believe unfortunately.

 

[Jordan`]

It would be great of course but Australia definitely won't be one of the first. Comparing Australia to Germany with respect to alcohol abuse and violence we have a long way to go, in Germany you can drink wherever the hell you want and from personal experience I never saw the problems I saw here. Not to say it doesn't happen but they have definitely been cultured over there to respect the effects of alcohol possibly because you can buy certain drinks when you aren't 18 I couldn't definitively say obviously but the essence is there.

Maybe the police need to be tougher on violent legal/illegal drug users instead of possession? That's where I think decriminalising would be extremely advantageous instead of pulling these masses through the system when they don't need to be fine them and charge the violent individuals. This is ignoring the fact that the effect of purchasing illicit drugs doesn't just start with the end-user but the people at the start of the chain as well and couldnt possibly increase the magnitude of this effect.

 

[Mr Blonde]

^ Interesting comparison with Germany there, I have never been there but I have heard similar accounts as to what you are saying.

I agree that violent offenders should be cracked down on. I hate the violence you can see sometimes in the city at night, it fucking disgusts me actually because always it is over the stupidest shit imaginable and obviously related to people doing way too much booze and drugs.

 

[Sykik]

^^ Great points tr3jo. I concur.

n.b clearly these statistics are just indicitive and are the best I can provide with my own personal experience.

I would just like to raise what I think would be the biggest change.

Social stigma.

OK. Here are some personally collected statistics. I have introduced about 30people to mdma over the course of my life, either directly or indirectly. Out of those 30people only one person said the drug wasn't for them. His opinion was based purely on the effect of MDMA physically. (~3% of my sample pool)

Now the other 29 enjoyed the drug, and currently about 5 of us would still like to roll if mdma was around. Now what about the other 24 people. OK so 5/24 = ~18%. So 79% of people do not take mdma because of the social and health risks. With the majority of the reaons based on in depth discussions on the topic is because of the social stigma.

They are viewed as reckless and shuned by the wider society. People like myself who work in a professional field can not discuss my weekend benders. Instead I hide it, for fear of being prosecuted and thought less of. The health reasons are another contributing factor. However with the education provided by legalizing mdma, this reason could be managed.


There would be a three fold effect

1. So if the social stigma was removed, there would be huge spike in the amount of mdma use by the punters that have allready tried it, but limit there use.

2. I huge spike in interest from the "OMG" I love this drug conversions which result in the conversations that occur after the stigma is removed, encouraging a bigger sample pool to try.

3. Based on my sample around ~97% of people who try it, enjoy it. So a lot of people would continue taking it.

With such a huge spike, the number of idiots taking it is bound to increase, and people not taking HR measures will get hurt and possibly die. Busty_St_Clair is on the money with his pessimistic posts.

It definitely is a double edged sword. Would be better for us MDMA users that have some knowledge of MDMA risks, yes. Would it better for the un-educated wider community, on average yes, but there most definitely by localized personal catastrophes. As not all deaths are caused by adulterants.

enough for now.



I understand these statistics are a bit loose, and don't lecture me on significance levels or sample size or anything like this, as this disclaimer is saying that I understand statistics and this is purely hear just to encourage conversation. Just a side note, please don't extrapolate my statistics to 20million australians... it doesn't work like that, if you want to know more, call the Australian Bureau of Statistics and ask them

 

[Sameria]

^ This I feel is the most interesting aspect of legalisation.

Big pharm companies would no doubt take up the lucrative market.

Legalisation would also give a hell of a lot more freedom to research carried out on psychoactive substances. Who knows, with a bit of luck we might even find a non-toxic MDMA replacement.

For me, new substances are the most exciting aspect of legalisation.

 

[Busty St Clare]

I'd imagine a lot of industries would increase drug testing. Even though it is "legal" there would still be the need to discourage people from using. Pilots, doctors, police, military and other workers deemed to be required to have all their senses come Monday morning would still be banned from using, rightly or wrongly. You could argue all you like about freedom and discrimination but I'd guarantee their employers and public perception as a whole would enforce it.

 

[Sustanon]

-Crime rates would drop thus making less Police work saving the government money.
-It would go through quality inspection (users will not over dose or take adulterated substances) meaning less hospital admittance.
-Could be used therapeutically
-Could be taxed and distrubuted thus making the government more money than tobacco and booze put together LOL

Many many more. Ill never understand it. Its our body and we should decide what we put in it. Would be cool if there was a license for it

 

[L3inad]

^ This I feel is the most interesting aspect of legalisation.

Big pharm companies would no doubt take up the lucrative market.

Legalisation would also give a hell of a lot more freedom to research carried out on psychoactive substances. Who knows, with a bit of luck we might even find a non-toxic MDMA replacement.

For me, new substances are the most exciting aspect of legalisation.

This ^

Very true. With legalisation would come research into psychoactive's such as MDMA that havent really been studied at any great detail for many decades. And this could also open up for the faster discovery, trails and potential distribution of many new RC's which may or may not be fantastic and safe.

Im sure there's plenty more magical chemicals out there that just havent come to light yet, and legalisation would have a very significant effect on this which is probably the most interesting point for me personally.

 

[C_Tripper]

Sykik has summed up my feelings rather well

Unfortunately, I think it also applies to nearly any drug you want to see legalised.

 

[Busty St Clare]

If you want a similar comparison perhaps we should look at how legally available mephedrone fared in the UK.

It was initially touted as a safe MDMA alternative, people went bonkers and bought it by the onces online, producers and importers made millions, became very cheap and maintained it's purity, some serious side effects started to occur but were relatively small in numbers, one or two underage deaths (people still argued that these were because of other drug interactions) and finally the lawmakers decided that it was too much of a good(?) thing and it is eventually banned. With it now illegal, people are finding those who stashed the stuff are cutting it and on selling at a greater price.

One thing that you did notice was the distinct lack of self control by the public and an increase in law abidding citizens who jumped on the meph train.

We could also assume that the media will come up with a ridiculous street name so as to use it in headlines.

 

[L3inad]

If you want a similar comparison perhaps we should look at how legally available mephedrone fared in the UK.

It was initially touted as a safe MDMA alternative, people went bonkers and bought it by the onces online, producers and importers made millions, became very cheap and maintained it's purity, some serious side effects started to occur but were relatively small in numbers, one or two underage deaths (people still argued that these were because of other drug interactions) and finally the lawmakers decided that it was too much of a good(?) thing and it is eventually banned. With it now illegal, people are finding those who stashed the stuff are cutting it and on selling at a greater price.

One thing that you did notice was the distinct lack of self control by the public and an increase in law abidding citizens who jumped on the meph train.

We could also assume that the media will come up with a ridiculous street name so as to use it in headlines.

Thats actually a very worthwhile point.

We could indeed use 4mmc as a means of comparimson. Its not perfect, but it can give us more of a foundation to go on.

Im actually very surprised to see how little chaos was caused by legaly available MDMA alternatives, especially considering how much more dangerous they seem to be compared to MDMA itself.

Only two deaths reported in the UK over a matter of years of having this substance legally available for any munter to get their hands on and only two took it to far? MDMA is much more safer than 4mmc IMHO and I think most would agree, so if we use 4mmc as an example, and with UK culture being vastly similar to our own, I think it would be safe to say that any legalisation of MDMA would cause less of an issue than what weve seen in the UK with 4mmc. And considering that very little bad has actually come of it, I think that an assumption that legalisation of MDMA wouldn't cause much of a problem at all in terms of health and fatal overdoses.

Usage of 4mmc, and subsequent rise in usage with it being legally available coincided with a massive decline in MDMA availabilty, causing many users to switch to what was more available. If MDMA was legally available, would we see such an increase? I really don think so, because people are already using it in great numbers and instead of jumping to a new substance causing a spike in use, they stay with the same substance but simply obtain it through legal means.

Thanks for that busty. Very notable contribution.

 

[Mr Blonde]

^ That was only two underage users who died, there were about seventeen deaths all up I think but still not that many compared to alcohol.

 

[infectedmushroom]

My main concern is the contentious issue of neurotoxicity. Until a more final word can be placed on the mental effects of MDMA in the long term I think it's best scientists continue to research and the drug remains illegal.

We as consumers though can influence MDMA in this country more than we think. It is simple; do not buy pills which do not contain MDMA. Educate your friends as to what their money is going towards (certainly 99% of the time thesedays; NOT MDMA!)