Kratom What the fuck is happening to me? Kratom and gabapentin

[Mjäll]

Longshot: Mitragynine according to some sources is an agonist at adrenergic a2 receptors, which simply put are inhibitory receptors for the stress system. If this is true, kratom attenuates the release and activity of noradrenaline, in addition to its opioid agonism. This would mean that excess noradrenaline will be part of the withdrawal symptoms of kratom. It would also mean that supplementing with another a2 agonist could alleviate these symptoms without prolonging the opioid addiction. One example of another a2 agonist is the phytocannabinoid CBG which occurs in trace amounts in marijuana and which is available legally in most countries. I have it in its pure form, a fluffy tasteless powder. As i haven't experienced your symptoms, i can't vouch for the efficacy of such a strategy. It might be worth a try. CBG overall is on par with CBD in terms of drug power - virtually non-psychoactive and without side effects.

 

[gabafucked]

Longshot: Mitragynine according to some sources is an agonist at adrenergic a2 receptors, which simply put are inhibitory receptors for the stress system. If this is true, kratom attenuates the release and activity of noradrenaline, in addition to its opioid agonism. This would mean that excess noradrenaline will be part of the withdrawal symptoms of kratom. It would also mean that supplementing with another a2 agonist could alleviate these symptoms without prolonging the opioid addiction. One example of another a2 agonist is the phytocannabinoid CBG which occurs in trace amounts in marijuana and which is available legally in most countries. I have it in its pure form, a fluffy tasteless powder. As i haven't experienced your symptoms, i can't vouch for the efficacy of such a strategy. It might be worth a try. CBG overall is on par with CBD in terms of drug power - virtually non-psychoactive and without side effects.

Thank you I appreciate the info I'll keep it in mind when I finally jump off of kratom. I don't think there a component of kratom withdrawal to what I'm feeling right now as I'm taking it consistently and making small drops. Now the kratom might be part of the problem in other ways, that im not sure of.

 

[Keif' Richards]

I think people don't consider the idea of miniscule titration enough. I believe one of the best things you can do is make the increments of your taper as small as possible. For people who have never done volumetric dosing before, it seems the process is often considered too complicated. It's really not.

Gabapentin is going to work in essentially the same manner whether you take the tablet whole or if it's crushed and swallowed. I see you have a lot of anxiety surrounding the taper, which is normal. By following a super-slow titration process, the hope would be that the side-effects would be minimal or difficult to notice.

You can take a tablet or capsule, crush the contents into a solution. I'm not sure off the top of my head regarding the water-solubility of Gabapentin, though this isn't a huge issue, as you can agitate/shake the contents before every use to make the solution homogeneous.

An example would be to take 300mg Gabapentin and make it into a solution with 30ml of water. Oral syringes from the pharmacy, I find, are a quick and easy way to measure and administer the solution. You could then draw up 1ml which would equal 30mg Gabapentin. Going further, you could take 0.5ml as 15mg and so on.

You take this 15mg-30mg out of the total solution. You can save this for later or throw it out, your call. You then consume the rest of the solution knowing you've cut 15mg ouf of the total dose. You can then perhaps cut 15mg every few days.

This might seem like a long, drawn out process, but it might make the difference in allaying your anxieties and allowing you to function without the fear of withdrawal in your life. On this scheme, depending on how you play it, you could be free from Gabapentin in maybe 6 months. That really is up to you. You can then be motivated by knowing in the back of your head you're fixing the problem. Meanwhile, the withdrawal symptoms should be minimal.

If you have any questions let me know.

 

[Tranced]

I posted before a couple of months ago regarding my early morning anxiety and thought I had fixed things, but clearly not. I used to think with long term use of things as long as you continue to take whatever your vice is on a regular basis then you have nothing to worry about, as you're able to keep withdrawal at bay. Clearly I was wrong. I'm currently taking 6.3-6.5g of kratom 4x per day and gabapentin 1.8g staggered at 5-6 am and 1.2g staggered 12 hours later. I've been taking kratom for about 5 years and cut my gpd by 30-40% and gabapentin a couple of years. I cut my gabapentin from once daily dosing 3600mg once daily to my current regimen both about 2 months ago. My current predicament is when I wake up in the mornings I have this terrible anxiety and overwhelming "adrenaline/cortisol" type feeling whooshing through my body. Taking my kratom doesn't seem to help, as I fell asleep before taking my night time dose, and woke up at 2am with that feeling and taking kratom didn't alleviate it, maybe worsened or caused it I can't tell. for the most part once my morning gabapentin starts kicking in I start feeling better and can get through my day even work just fine. I get by but I'm definitely not thriving by any means. Im just really scared and the anxiety is not making this any better. I'm so scared that if I'm already feeling like this how will I continue to taper. I need off of these but I've been on them for so long, and I don't know how I will cope with the pain of tapering and then whatever hell of withdrawal awaits me with no comfort meds, as gabapentin and kratom are basically the most common ones that really do work.

gabapentanin and pregabalin discontinuation/withdrawal = very strange "vertigo" type feelings in me, especially in the morning and the shower. Kind of like a "gonna faint" head to body shudder that scares the shit out of me. Thankfully, never caused a seizure, but did feel like seizure activity.

 

[gabafucked]

I think people don't consider the idea of miniscule titration enough. I believe one of the best things you can do is make the increments of your taper as small as possible. For people who have never done volumetric dosing before, it seems the process is often considered too complicated. It's really not.

Gabapentin is going to work in essentially the same manner whether you take the tablet whole or if it's crushed and swallowed. I see you have a lot of anxiety surrounding the taper, which is normal. By following a super-slow titration process, the hope would be that the side-effects would be minimal or difficult to notice.

You can take a tablet or capsule, crush the contents into a solution. I'm not sure off the top of my head regarding the water-solubility of Gabapentin, though this isn't a huge issue, as you can agitate/shake the contents before every use to make the solution homogeneous.

An example would be to take 300mg Gabapentin and make it into a solution with 30ml of water. Oral syringes from the pharmacy, I find, are a quick and easy way to measure and administer the solution. You could then draw up 1ml which would equal 30mg Gabapentin. Going further, you could take 0.5ml as 15mg and so on.

You take this 15mg-30mg out of the total solution. You can save this for later or throw it out, your call. You then consume the rest of the solution knowing you've cut 15mg ouf of the total dose. You can then perhaps cut 15mg every few days.

This might seem like a long, drawn out process, but it might make the difference in allaying your anxieties and allowing you to function without the fear of withdrawal in your life. On this scheme, depending on how you play it, you could be free from Gabapentin in maybe 6 months. That really is up to you. You can then be motivated by knowing in the back of your head you're fixing the problem. Meanwhile, the withdrawal symptoms should be minimal.

If you have any questions let me know.

Thank you for the long response. This is exactly the plan I have for my taper. I'm going to try to get some 100mg capsules to taper slowly with, and then water titrate. Any thoughts on why I'm suddenly having these symptoms before my next dose, especially bad in the be mornings? A week ago I was able to wake up and get ready for work feeling mostly okay. This morning I was feeling so bad I ended up waking up and then laying in bed shaking and anxious with my husband holding me almost crying because I felt so scared. Once my stagger starts kicking in I'm pretty okay. This is just boggling my mind as nothing with my dose has changed in 2 months, but I'm suddenly experiencing these severe symptoms out of nowhere. I can't talk to the prescriber about it because #1 she is a nurse practitioner and just not very good and #2 I can't risk having the prescription yanked before I'm done tapering. I'm thinking maybe a neuropsychiatrist might be worth seeing about it, but it's probably very unlikely they have experience with someone in my situation.

 

[gabafucked]

gabapentanin and pregabalin discontinuation/withdrawal = very strange "vertigo" type feelings in me, especially in the morning and the shower. Kind of like a "gonna faint" head to body shudder that scares the shit out of me. Thankfully, never caused a seizure, but did feel like seizure activity.

I know exactly what you are talking about I think. When I quit before I would have these weird episodes of feeling this very weird "deja vu" moments just out of nowhere and almost disassociation for a few seconds. I don't even know how to accurately describe it, but I think we might be referring to the same thing.

 

[BadBoy377]

Thank you for the long response. This is exactly the plan I have for my taper. I'm going to try to get some 100mg capsules to taper slowly with, and then water titrate. Any thoughts on why I'm suddenly having these symptoms before my next dose, especially bad in the be mornings? A week ago I was able to wake up and get ready for work feeling mostly okay. This morning I was feeling so bad I ended up waking up and then laying in bed shaking and anxious with my husband holding me almost crying because I felt so scared. Once my stagger starts kicking in I'm pretty okay. This is just boggling my mind as nothing with my dose has changed in 2 months, but I'm suddenly experiencing these severe symptoms out of nowhere. I can't talk to the prescriber about it because #1 she is a nurse practitioner and just not very good and #2 I can't risk having the prescription yanked before I'm done tapering. I'm thinking maybe a neuropsychiatrist might be worth seeing about it, but it's probably very unlikely they have experience with someone in my situation.

Look. You know why you're having these symptoms. You're physically addicted to two drugs and now they're fucking your head up. But you know that already cos your name is gabafucked.

I'm no try to be mean but I really think it's as simple as that. And the answer is simple too. Work out a dosing regime for each that keeps you comfortable. Then start from there. Pick one drug and slowly reduce over time until you've stopped. Then start the same with the other. I would suggest just doing one at a time to ensure success. Do this and I'm sure things will be ok. It's good you have your husband to support you. That counts for a lot too.

I'm really not trying to be mean here. I genuinely wish you success in stopping and reaching more stable, happier times.

All the best,

BB

 

[gabafucked]

Look. You know why you're having these symptoms. You're physically addicted to two drugs and now they're fucking your head up. But you know that already cos your name is gabafucked.

I'm no try to be mean but I really think it's as simple as that. And the answer is simple too. Work out a dosing regime for each that keeps you comfortable. Then start from there. Pick one drug and slowly reduce over time until you've stopped. Then start the same with the other. I would suggest just doing one at a time to ensure success. Do this and I'm sure things will be ok. It's good you have your husband to support you. That counts for a lot too.

I'm really not trying to be mean here. I genuinely wish you success in stopping and reaching more stable, happier times.

All the best,

BB

Haha yes I understand that the dependance is causing my symptoms, and I did change up my dosing a couple of months ago to something more stable and it seemed to be working fine for me until just recently when these symptoms started. I'm not taking anything erratically or cheating my dose in any way. Same amount of kratom and gabapentin. That's the part I'm confused about and not sure what I would change to try to ameliorate the new symptoms and I understand you're trying to help and not be mean I'm just a little lost and don't know where to go from here. I don't want to/can't increase my gabapentin dose I take as much as I'm prescribed (which I am definitely going to SLOW TAPER if I can stabilize myself again )

 

[drdoom388]

I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but that is entirely too much gabapentin. I have been prescribed gabapentin for years, and I also use kratom for pain daily at 3 to 6 grams 3 times a day. The amount of gabapentin you describe is so far beyond the maximum medical use dose that it can only have negative effects. Here is the reason why, at maximum therapeutic doses a medication does what it's supposed to do as best as it can without causing serious adverse effects. The maximum therapeutic dose of gabapentin is 1800mg and that's for a very large person with tolerance. After that dose the drug can and does effect brain and body functions is often unpredictable ways. I understand the desire to remain blitzed out of your gourd all day, but at that high of a dose you are risking things like respiratory failure, plunging blood pressure, and even coma. Start slowly tapering your use back down to safe levels or you may find yourself in the hospital some day soon.

 

[JackARoe]

Oddly enough when I have gabapentin on occasion I find I can go over 24 hours without kratom and have no issues. Probably longer. So I am surprised that the gabapentin doesn't hold longer. Then again I am sure a large daily dose is different than an occasional dose.

Hmmmmmmm.

 

[gabafucked]

I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but that is entirely too much gabapentin. I have been prescribed gabapentin for years, and I also use kratom for pain daily at 3 to 6 grams 3 times a day. The amount of gabapentin you describe is so far beyond the maximum medical use dose that it can only have negative effects. Here is the reason why, at maximum therapeutic doses a medication does what it's supposed to do as best as it can without causing serious adverse effects. The maximum therapeutic dose of gabapentin is 1800mg and that's for a very large person with tolerance. After that dose the drug can and does effect brain and body functions is often unpredictable ways. I understand the desire to remain blitzed out of your gourd all day, but at that high of a dose you are risking things like respiratory failure, plunging blood pressure, and even coma. Start slowly tapering your use back down to safe levels or you may find yourself in the hospital some day soon.

Well, 3g is not above maximum recommended daily. I also don't get high on it. It worked as a great mood and anxiety stabilizer at the higher doses, but now I'm here. Also I understand this is a long thread so hard to keep up with everything, but I am infact trying to stabilize how I feel so that I can continue my taper that I started with both substances.

 

[gabafucked]

Oddly enough when I have gabapentin on occasion I find I can go over 24 hours without kratom and have no issues. Probably longer. So I am surprised that the gabapentin doesn't hold longer. Then again I am sure a large daily dose is different than an occasional dose.

Hmmmmmmm.

I'm sure the fact that I have used both for years changes how they interact, but I didn't think I would actually start feeling withdrawal symptoms when the amounts I'm taking have been stable in dose and frequency for a few months.

 

[JackARoe]

Maybe we will get to the bottom of it. Hopefully it is just an annoyance for now other than something that stops your life. I am willing to be whatever you stick with will help balance you out. It seems this all came up with a change of routine. The body can adjust to anything.

 

[gabafucked]

Maybe we will get to the bottom of it. Hopefully it is just an annoyance for now other than something that stops your life. I am willing to be whatever you stick with will help balance you out. It seems this all came up with a change of routine. The body can adjust to anything.

Yes I'm hoping maybe something else is going on that will resolve with time and I'm just attributing it to the substances because don't we all? We shall see how things develop. I just know I feel crummy but manageable throughout the day but man these morning episodes, if they start happening throughout the day I'm screwed. It's that whole body anxiety that takes over and you can't even think about anything but fear. It's definitely possible that the anxiety is just exacerbating everything and feeding into itself, but I don't know what I can do to prevent it. It comes on so suddenly

 

[Jabberwocky]

Oh fuck me. Woke up this morning for work and feeling terrible. Shivering uncomfortable little nauseated and trying not to allow anxiety to take over. Just took my first dose of my morning stagger. FUCK. Before even when I would occasionally wake up with anxiety I would be fine before work due to just needing to stay busy until the meds kicked in I guess. I'm afraid experiencing these morning symptoms is just triggering things to be worse because Im scared when waking up of what's going to happen. What the fuck is going on with me why is this suddenly happening????

hey man trust me on that synthetic nicotine + kratom interaction, I know it sounds really weird, but that interaction became so severe that I actually ended up going to the emergency room because I was so insanely agitated and anxious and I didn't understand what was happening to me

I felt worse and worse every day. I kept blaming it on the alcohol or the kratom as one would logically do, but it just kept getting worse and worse even though I was tapering both those substances.

It got to the point where taking just 0.5g of kratom would send me into 8+ hours of extreme agitation, to the point where I felt psychotic and couldn't function at any level.

Nicotine is the last thing I would suspect, but that was the culprit, specifically (r) nicotine. It metabolizes differently than (s) nicotine, and those metabolites were severely interacting with kratom alkaloids.

Switch to tobacco products for a few days, see if it helps. Believe me.

I caused myself a lot of pain because I kept blaming it on the other drugs I was doing, never thought it could be synthetic nicotine, but it was.

 

[gabafucked]

hey man trust me on that synthetic nicotine + kratom interaction, I know it sounds really weird, but that interaction became so severe that I actually ended up going to the emergency room because I was so insanely agitated and anxious and I didn't understand what was happening to me

I felt worse and worse every day. I kept blaming it on the alcohol or the kratom as one would logically do, but it just kept getting worse and worse even though I was tapering both those substances.

It got to the point where taking just 0.5g of kratom would send me into 8+ hours of extreme agitation, to the point where I felt psychotic and couldn't function at any level.

Nicotine is the last thing I would suspect, but that was the culprit, specifically (r) nicotine. It metabolizes differently than (s) nicotine, and those metabolites were severely interacting with kratom alkaloids.

Switch to tobacco products for a few days, see if it helps. Believe me.

That's so crazy!!! Maybe I can just get some nicotine gum and quit from there and see what happens. Do you know if the gum has s or r?

 

[Jabberwocky]

That's so crazy!!! Maybe I can just get some nicotine gum and quit from there and see what happens. Do you know if the gum has s or r?

most of the gum/lozenges are synthetic now too, unless they are the nicotine cessation products like the ones they sell at walmart/walgreens.

tobacco only produces (s) nicotine, and nicotine derived from tobacco is only (s) nicotine. Nicotine created in a lab is racemic and 50/50 (s) or (r) nicotine.

 

[gabafucked]

most of the gum/lozenges are synthetic now too, unless they are the nicotine cessation products like the ones they sell at walmart/walgreens.

tobacco only produces (s) nicotine, and nicotine derived from tobacco is only (s) nicotine. Nicotine created in a lab is racemic and 50/50 (s) or (r) nicotine.

Yeah I was thinking generic Nicorette or something. If the answer is this simple you're a life saver. Gosh I hope it is, but I'm still fairly certain the gabapentin is the culprit which really sucks. I'll definitely give it a go though

 

[yaesutom]

Well 95% of all Kratom sucks now, it’s all been going straight downhill for years in slow motion.

I think the countries that produce it are just so poor they are mixing it wrong or mixing crap in or wood chips or something and it’s just all shitty now and feels like it induces opiate withdrawal even without dependence instead of the warm buzz.


also I think most Kratom vendors just lie and post fake good lab results so they can offload all this shitty Kratom. I’ve seen them using paid bots or paid humans to all post fake hyped up posts to each other which is so obvious but it works on naive new customers.

 

[thurston]

Switching to a mitragynine extract is likely the best quick possible solution that wouldn't involve opioid withdrawal. The other alkaloids in kratom have caused problems for myself and other BL members

I would look for an extract with minimal secondary alkaloids and high mitragynine content

I agree raw powder withdrawal is way way way worse than extract withdrawal. My last run of kratom was extract only and the withdrawal was a piece of cake (about 2 days of the flu) compared to raw powder.