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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards

What next on the mild opiates tree....?

GrumpyCat

Greenlighter
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
18
Hi all

Posted here as unsure what section to post in, then saw this was place to post if you unsure, and a mod will move to appropriate section, so thanks in advance for that.

So, yes looking to try something new....
Had codeine phosphate and DHC, but tolerance to both gone up and want to try something else, as love/missing that feeling these used to give me.
But at same time don't really want to go down the stronger opiates road, so in a quandary as to what to do. I'm not ready to give up opiates yet, so wondering is there another drug I could try?

Any advice/tips/ideas etc appreciated, thanks
 
Or just thought, a way to potentiate codeine or dhc, that wouldn't contraindicate with the daily 25mg of amitriptyline I am currently prescribed.
Saying that, I would like to know all options available to me - other drugs and potentiators
 
Well typically from a general safety standpoint you're better off trying to find a way to get more out of the same drug(s) you've been using instead of simply moving to something stronger, but amitriptyline and really all tricyclics are kind of weird medications with lots of interactions and being on it kind of muddles the equation IMO.

The short answer to your first question is that the next reasonable step would be something like hydrocodone or even oral morphine, oral hydrocodone and oral morphine having a 1:1 equianalgesic equivalency (which isn't necessarily the same as an equi....recreational... equivalency). There are drugs whose potencies are more than what you've been taking but less than hydrocodone or morphine, but they're not going to be easy to find. All opioids have the potential to be addictive and dangerous of course, but I do think the step from codeine or even DHC to the "next level" is probably something to be avoided if at all possible, as it's a big jump in potency and again, common sense would usually say that if there's a way for you to safely continue what you've been doing it's probably better than doing stronger drugs. Imagine me making a balancing I-don't-know-what's-better-because-of-the-amitriptyline motion with my hands here, though.

A really simple way to potentiate most oral opioids is by taking an antacid about 30 minutes beforehand. It may not be quite as effective as enzyme inhibition for some people, but then again it can make a pretty big difference. It's certainly worth trying.

Promethazine is commonly combined with codeine to increase the effects and if you can find it, prometh or another first-generation antihistamine shouldn't be too terrible to take with what you're already on.

Remember that White Grapefruit Juice doesn't work with codeine.

Plugging could be viable for the DHC, though any method that decreases time to onset and increased absorption etc. comes with its own inherent risks and dangers.

Kratom may be an option (as opposed to the DHC or codeine), but it's not one I can speak much on.

Of course there are many depressants that could be added *in theory* that could boost the opiate experience but I really wouldn't recommend it with the amitriptyline, which already sort of has an interaction with both DHC and codeine or any depressant. I always really thought that most tricyclics and certainly amitriptyline were CNS depressants but I'm having trouble finding any solid information that explicitly corroborates this other than "somnolence" being reported as a common side-effect, which really isn't the same thing. With potentiators in general you do want to make sure that you're not potentiating the amitriptyline too, but I don't think there's a lot of crossover (don't quote me on that).

I did want to try and give you whatever information I could specific to your situation as a result of the amitriptyline which does need to be taken into account, but otherwise I'm sure the basic questions of "what's next in strength/potency/recreational value from codeine or DHC" and "what are good potentiators of codeine or DHC" have been asked and answered here a whole bunch. Here's one archived thread on DHC potentiators, which does indeed discuss some of the above and other methods.
Then there's also the Opioid Potentiation Megathread.

Like I said, I think you need to be mindful of the amitriptyline but otherwise your answers to the potentiation question should be there, and the others should be pretty easily found from other sources besides me.

PS: I saw your other thread in BDD which is very, very similar to this one. There's no need to post the same basic question more than once. Also, while it didn't come up here, it did come up in the other one: sourcing of even legal substances or paraphernalia is not allowed on BL. This is stated explicitly in the BDD posting guidelines and elsewhere.
 
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Kratom advice needed please

Been doing little bit of research and came across kratom - which is new to me.
So would be good to get some opinions etc about it from people that have tried it.

Interactions wise - I take 25mg amitriptyline (which ok with amount of dhc/codeine I take)
 
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Thank you so much for taking the time to post such an informative and personalised response - very heartening for my first experience on here :D
I have learnt a lot already from what you have posted - and you have given me the tools to look elsewhere and things to think more on, and I will, much appreciated :D
 
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... and yes the amitriptyline muddles lots of things, not just the medications and interactions, lol. :?
and I thought amitriptyline was a CNS depressant too, so as you say gotta be mindful of.
I like your 'responsible' attitude by the way, esp as I know I shouldn't!

Just seen your PS - thanks for heads up - not a good start eh!
Sorry admin, won't happen again, (delete whatever)will do more forum reading.
But yes, kratom is something I just been looking into - I'm going to give it a go.
 
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I'm not an admin :) I'm barely any older of a member than you. I just came from another similar site and knew to read the rules, and what rules are typical for sites of this subject.

I'm sure people more experienced with kratom will be able to help guide you in the right direction even if actual sourcing is not allowed, if that's the direction you're planning on heading. I don't want to give you any poor information on how the site works as another relatively new member, but you can edit your posts so I'd think the best thing to is to remove your sourcing question in the other thread and possibly report it (exclamation point in triangle in upper right-hand corner) as an accidental duplicate.

Anyway, not being a staff member has nothing to do with my opioid experience so I'm glad you found that information helpful. It's a good idea to search before posting most general questions because there's such a wealth of information already extant here, but most people will gladly help with the vast majority of more specified personal questions or a topic that hasn't been beaten to death already.

I was only on amitriptyline myself for a short period and don't remember typical dosing (which may be/probably is different for different conditions) but I'm pretty sure 25mg is a relatively low dose. It still needs to be taken into consideration with drug interactions but it's definitely better for you to be on a lower dose than a higher one in terms of your recreational drug use. That's just common sense! I know I'm not telling you anything new or that you don't know... just kind of summing up my general points here.

So I don't think I have anything else for now, but someone else might, and certainly someone else could be more helpful with the kratom. Do what you can do to either keep taking what you're taking now or make the switch to kratom versus making a step up in strength. Hopefully one of (or a combination of) the potentiation methods or the kratom will do the trick so you don't feel pigeonholed into switching to morphine or something. I know hydrocodone is nearly impossible to find in the UK, not that it would be much preferable anyway.

Good luck and keep asking questions as needed.
 
Well typically from a general safety standpoint you're better off trying to find a way to get more out of the same drug(s) you've been using instead of simply moving to something stronger, but amitriptyline and really all tricyclics are kind of weird medications with lots of interactions and being on it kind of muddles the equation IMO.

The short answer to your first question is that the next reasonable step would be something like hydrocodone or even oral morphine, oral hydrocodone and oral morphine having a 1:1 equianalgesic equivalency (which isn't necessarily the same as an equi....recreational... equivalency). There are drugs whose potencies are more than what you've been taking but less than hydrocodone or morphine, but they're not going to be easy to find. All opioids have the potential to be addictive and dangerous of course, but I do think the step from codeine or even DHC to the "next level" is probably something to be avoided if at all possible, as it's a big jump in potency and again, common sense would usually say that if there's a way for you to safely continue what you've been doing it's probably better than doing stronger drugs. Imagine me making a balancing I-don't-know-what's-better-because-of-the-amitriptyline motion with my hands here, though.

A really simple way to potentiate most oral opioids is by taking an antacid about 30 minutes beforehand. It may not be quite as effective as enzyme inhibition for some people, but then again it can make a pretty big difference. It's certainly worth trying.

Promethazine is commonly combined with codeine to increase the effects and if you can find it, prometh or another first-generation antihistamine shouldn't be too terrible to take with what you're already on.

Remember that White Grapefruit Juice doesn't work with codeine.

Plugging could be viable for the DHC, though any method that decreases time to onset and increased absorption etc. comes with its own inherent risks and dangers.

Kratom may be an option (as opposed to the DHC or codeine), but it's not one I can speak much on.

Of course there are many depressants that could be added *in theory* that could boost the opiate experience but I really wouldn't recommend it with the amitriptyline, which already sort of has an interaction with both DHC and codeine or any depressant. I always really thought that most tricyclics and certainly amitriptyline were CNS depressants but I'm having trouble finding any solid information that explicitly corroborates this other than "somnolence" being reported as a common side-effect, which really isn't the same thing. With potentiators in general you do want to make sure that you're not potentiating the amitriptyline too, but I don't think there's a lot of crossover (don't quote me on that).

I did want to try and give you whatever information I could specific to your situation as a result of the amitriptyline which does need to be taken into account, but otherwise I'm sure the basic questions of "what's next in strength/potency/recreational value from codeine or DHC" and "what are good potentiators of codeine or DHC" have been asked and answered here a whole bunch. Here's one archived thread on DHC potentiators, which does indeed discuss some of the above and other methods.
Then there's also the Opioid Potentiation Megathread.

Like I said, I think you need to be mindful of the amitriptyline but otherwise your answers to the potentiation question should be there, and the others should be pretty easily found from other sources besides me.

PS: I saw your other thread in BDD which is very, very similar to this one. There's no need to post the same basic question more than once. Also, while it didn't come up here, it did come up in the other one: sourcing of even legal substances or paraphernalia is not allowed on BL. This is stated explicitly in the BDD posting guidelines and elsewhere.

Wow, what a great advice, great input. Well done Cuivre! Nicely put as well.. :)
 
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The kratom will add to the effects if your current opiate usage. it is a mu opiod angonist so kratom does tickle your opiate receptors, my pupils have been pin dot from it before. but there are other alkaloids in the plant that have various effects too. kratom just kind feels like you took a couple hydrocodones and drank an energy drink. it does stimulate you
 
Yeah, I didn't push it in my first reply because I know some people are categorically opposed to the idea, but that's really pretty much my first suggestion too if you're open to it, Grumpy. DHC has a poor oral BA that should be greatly increased rectally which would certainly help your tolerance problems for the time being. IME plugging makes most drugs that are viable rectally an entirely different experience.

Also thanks for the kind words, Erik.
 
I suggest getting kratom extract and trying the recommended dosage. If you like it, then I suggest you find a reliable source for ground leaf kratom on the internet and use that. If you continuously use extract, you will develop a tolerance and it'll be a waste.
 
Just a quick one, as rushing around, but thanks for all the posts - much appreciated, one and all :)
 
To who said hydro oral is equal to morphine oral,,,that's PRETTY MUCH TRUE,but when it comes to higher dosing it completely falls apart. I can easily take 350mg of morphine PO and have no trouble breathing whatsoever but if I were to take the same dose of PO hydrocodone it's a completely different story. Making statements such as that are the reverse of harm reduction and it truly matters. Hydrocodone is in fact at least 1.4x morphine potency and that.4 matters
 
OP, this will be brief.. It's getting late here & I'm tired.

Mild opiate options I can think of are Tapentadol or Tramadol.

Your antidepressant dose is low enough to handle the SNRI properties of either.

However, as another posted, you truly DO NOT want to escalate your habit. Is it for pain or pleasure?

No one on this forum has ever appreciated their opiate addiction & their resulting loss from homes to families. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's a road I & many others wished we'd never treaded.

Read some of the stories in recovery & sober living, just to give you an informed idea of where increasing your dose or escalating even mild opiates may lead you.

Pm me if you think I can add anything,

Rtp
 
Ever tried Tramadol? It's a hit and miss with mostly everyone. By that I mean, for some people, like myself, it's heavenly and in opinion better than most other much stronger opioids. Then with the hit and miss, it's does absolutely Jack shit for some. But its worth a try, just make sure you don't take anything serotonin-releasing with it. Goodluck.
 
Ain't "what drug should i try threads" not allowed?

OT:
If your tolerance gone up then better stay way in general from opiates for some time. Most opiates are cross tolerance. Changing opiates does not mean that you eventually get high again. Potentiating and other roa's might work in the beginning, but will also increase your tolerance, too.

If you start missing your beloved opiate high its time to think. Think about how strong the grip of opiates is already on you. If its not that bad, then a break should be no problem!
 
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