What made you find faith, or what turn against it?

[ageingpartyfiend]

I sometimes (like now) wish I had the power of one God behind me.

But the fact that there are also many different theories about God, or the Universe, extinguished the idea of one or more "sentient and almighty power" before it was even born in my mind.

Have to agree. it's truly ridiculous

The very idea we as humans can even come close to defining or even remotely understanding an entity that created the universe(s) and exists outside of time and space just seems ludicrous to me, an extreme reach into wishful thinking at best, at worst either plain psychosis, extreme existential fear and/or result of brainwashing/indoctrination.

Humans cannot even grasp extremely large numbers, or the probability that we'd all be better off co-operating instead of competing. But yeah - we can define 'God'. LOL

 

[-=SS=-]

I sometimes (like now) wish I had the power of one God behind me.

But the fact that there are also many different theories about God, or the Universe, extinguished the idea of one or more "sentient and almighty power" before it was even born in my mind.

It's matched only by the opposite position, a total denial of anything beyond mere random chance (excluding requiring an explanation for the miracle of the big bang). Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle.

That's how I see it. Rather than there being an omniscient super mind who designed the watch in totality, set it running, and walked away, that instead there is an omnipresent creative principle, rather than an overarching super intelligence as we conceive it, that emerges through the watch as it proceeds. The Universe grows, evolves, like a plant. Rupert Sheldrakes work I think provides a first step towards recognizing this.. that the 'laws' aren't fixed.. that the Universe is a dynamic, evolving process. Incidentally his work also makes a first step into explaining what the genetics obsessed materialist rationalists have utterly failed to explain, where form comes from.

"The force that through the green fuse drives the flower. Drives my green age.." - Dylan Thomas

I don't think it's a coincidence that the golden ratio is found throughout the forms of the biological kingdom. Some argue it is the fingerprint of God, but to me it is quite clear evidence that there is a creative principle that underpins it all. Random chance mutations, of organisms separated by millions of years of differing evolutionary lines, should not reveal this same mathematical principle all over the place. If it were truly random, truly devoid of all intelligence, you would not see organism after organism orientating its form according to this mathematical principle. It either has inherent value for forms (stability perhaps), which suggests a degree of intelligence (either within or without), or it is a governing principle that suggests intelligence from without (I think it is the former).

It's surprising to me why still people only ever consider God as this top-down, hierarchical thing. In this day and age, where we're not burdened by oppressive religious structures that mirror that idea. And it's boring that people still only ever argue against that one hypothesis, as opposed to something else like I just outlined (a creative principle coming form within, instead).

 

[Quasimoto]

Humans cannot even grasp extremely large numbers, or the probability that we'd all be better off co-operating instead of competing. But yeah - we can define 'God'. LOL

Many people can't even do basic math, let alone contemplate the meaning of large, infinite or irrational numbers.

One fact that has odd "existential" implications for me is that scientists estimate there are 10^81 atoms in the known universe, however the estimated number of unique, non-repeating, possible moves in a single game of chess is 10^120 ... which is staggeringly the larger number.

That's weird to think about...

I have aspects of both deism and agnosticism. I truly believe God exists, however I also truly believe our brains cannot even approach comprehension of that entity, and any human attempt at doing so (organized religion) is a huge fucking problem for me.

I've just turned away from agnosticism because it's boring to me, and approaches atheistic mental complacency.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

I no longer believe in any personal god. But i am still a non-dualist and pantheist.

Wasted many years chasing the infinite and trying to wrap my head around the infinity of reality. Drove me mad lol

 

[-=SS=-]

Wasted many years chasing the infinite and trying to wrap my head around the infinity of reality. Drove me mad lol

Also, this might be of interest to the believers of neo-Darwinism.

 

[Foreigner]

Which is why language, and its relation to evolution, is perhaps the greatest mystery in all of science.

Darwinian evolution doesn't cut the mustard. It's part of the picture, but not all of it.

It can't explain altruism. It's still a hotly debated topic. I have been present in person for debates between evolutionary biologists about the topic of altruism. They bend over backwards to try and shoe horn it into evolutionary theory, but it's never satisfactorily explained.

The best thing they can come up with is that altruism is more likely toward other individuals that you are related to, because you share similar genes, so even if you sacrifice yourself to save them, the same genes still live on in your relatives.

But it's bullshit because non-relatives help each other all the time. Even individuals from other species help each other.

 

[kiely]

Ancestors passed down a lot to us. Fears and instincts, behavioral patterns, wisdom and lots of neurological wiring to keep us alive.
I realize that the lower part of the brain is like an ancestor living inside of us.
And when we spend time in nature that part of the brain starts thriving like crazy.
From this perspective anyway, we don't thrive in nature. We are nature. We're not meant to be away from it for long.

Artificial environments are like being locked in a mall. Or a whale in a swimming pool.
It's like an ancestor is there in your head. And showing them a bunch of shopping malls and freeways is really confusing to them.
They don't know what that is and this is.

Distance from descendants is disease. When we become disconnected from Our Roots, Our Heritage and the natural
ways of life that our ancestors would recognize it leads to various forms of illness and dysfunction physical and psychological.

Judge not the mushrooms for decades or for a lifetime.

And I thought that there could be a spiritual molecule. And that there could be everything spiritual about that. And with no words in language to be able to describe the depth that that thing can take you to or show you or expose you to. Not being able to explain the spirit in there. Or the coordinates of whatever Dimension you go to or if you're imagining it or if it's all hallucination. It doesn't compare to how it can unzip the ego.

I think if you do it every few months. Even a lighter dose each time every few months. The ego that was way up there has one psychedelic journey and finally can get to the level where it just disappears and sees itself separate from the kind of ego it is separated from.

~~~~~~~~

An article titled from UT Health University of Texas Health Houston to test psychedelic mushrooms as a treatment for depression is about how science is just now making a breakthrough.

~~~~~~~~

We've been doing mushrooms as a species for like 10,000 years 50,000 years uh and treating depression with it for that whole time. And learning to grow by expanding our minds and our brain. And a cure. But now they're like oh we're we're just making this discovery and have brain scans to prove it.

Seizures can be a side effect of seizure medicine. Like anti-depressant side effects can be Suicidal Thoughts. Doctors do get training on treating symptoms instead of people.

It works right now and it works okay but we need to start seeing us as humans instead.

No one really knows what life is or why we are really here. But we are able to move forward and expand our minds to do so.

A lot can go wrong and it is good to see the point though. And I love how our conversations and messages are that none of us thinks that we're any smarter than the other and all are just learning from each other !

 

[MedicinalUser247]

I'm an Atheist, but I believe every one can believe what ever they want to believe in.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

I'm an Atheist, but I believe every one can believe what ever they want to believe in.

Except those who don't believe in free will; primarily because they believe that they don't have a choice and I have to respect that belief

 

[brokedownpalace10]

I'm an Atheist, but I believe every one can believe what ever they want to believe in.

I'm a Christian, but the only actually purely scientific belief would be agnosticism. Otherwise it's kinda, "The message is there is no message.".
It can't be proven either way.

 

[JackARoe]

Here is the thing with "believing" or not. The world is full of dualities. So in this instance it is 50/50 whether a person's accumulated knowledge lives on after the body dies. It either does or doesn't. I think when I look to Nature I always get the winks. Maybe some of the ideas work if we substitute the word Nature for the word God. Mother Nature. But in that 50/50 consciousness either goes on on some fashion (nature says energy can not be destroyed) OR it simply stops and it is the end to that person's consciousness.

The way Nature winks (at me) is if we go to just nothingness well that is something we crave every night. Sleep. It is almost bliss to some. Most I would say going to sleep is wonderful. The heroin nod too is that. And as Mark Twain said it was not an issue before he was born, and won't be an issue after he dies.

Then Nature has a million clues as to how there is way more than meets the eye to reality. And cooperation is how things get done. So the Golden Rule Makes sense. To me this is all very logical. My personal belief is we go on beyond time and space and the reasons, even just using Nature, would fill up a few pages.

So it is a win/win. Either of this 50/50 is a win. But to think we just end, a person better explore that. That could fill a few pages too. It would be nice if it were that simple. To quote from the Blues Brothers, "Jake you get wise, you get to church!". To true, works for the movie as a miracle but most don't need a church. But what is needed is .....just a little inquisitiveness and being a decent being to others. I consider each person their own church. But yeah, I love that 50/50. But explore, don't take the easy way out.

• Curtis: Well, the Sister was right. You boys could use a little churching up. Slide on down to the Triple Rock, and catch Rev. Cleophus. You boys listen to what he's got to say.
• Jake: Curtis, I don't want to listen to no jive-ass preacher talking to me about Heaven and Hell.
• Curtis: Jake, you get wise. You get to church.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Here is the thing with "believing" or not. The world is full of dualities. So in this instance it is 50/50 whether a person's accumulated knowledge lives on after the body dies. It either does or doesn't. I think when I look to Nature I always get the winks. Maybe some of the ideas work if we substitute the word Nature for the word God. Mother Nature. But in that 50/50 consciousness either goes on on some fashion (nature says energy can not be destroyed) OR it simply stops and it is the end to that person's consciousness.

The way Nature winks (at me) is if we go to just nothingness well that is something we crave every night. Sleep. It is almost bliss to some. Most I would say going to sleep is wonderful. The heroin nod too is that. And as Mark Twain said it was not an issue before he was born, and won't be an issue after he dies.

Then Nature has a million clues as to how there is way more than meets the eye to reality. And cooperation is how things get done. So the Golden Rule Makes sense. To me this is all very logical. My personal belief is we go on beyond time and space and the reasons, even just using Nature, would fill up a few pages.

So it is a win/win. Either of this 50/50 is a win. But to think we just end, a person better explore that. That could fill a few pages too. It would be nice if it were that simple. To quote from the Blues Brothers, "Jake you get wise, you get to church!". To true, works for the movie as a miracle but most don't need a church. But what is needed is .....just a little inquisitiveness and being a decent being to others. I consider each person their own church. But yeah, I love that 50/50. But explore, don't take the easy way out.

• Curtis: Well, the Sister was right. You boys could use a little churching up. Slide on down to the Triple Rock, and catch Rev. Cleophus. You boys listen to what he's got to say.
• Jake: Curtis, I don't want to listen to no jive-ass preacher talking to me about Heaven and Hell.
• Curtis: Jake, you get wise. You get to church.

Lol. I already considered Mark Twain one of the greatest philosophers and humorists of our era. Now I have to admit that the Blues Brothers are in the running as well.

It's not binary, in my mind. Does something live on? I think so. Does part of your consciousness not? Quite possibly. I can't see going to heaven and wanting to collect pocket knives. It almost seems sure that at least some of your energy continues, as you say. Prolly more than that, it seems to me. How much more? Who knows.

"But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. "
"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

 

[-=SS=-]

The way Nature winks (at me) is if we go to just nothingness well that is something we crave every night. Sleep. It is almost bliss to some. Most I would say going to sleep is wonderful. The heroin nod too is that. And as Mark Twain said it was not an issue before he was born, and won't be an issue after he dies.

According to Ramana Maharshi (it might be present in esoteric Vedanta, Hinduism, etc, I'm not a scholar) during deep sleep we are submerged back in to the Self (God, the Absolute).. we just don't remember it, obviously. I have found myself on the threshold of it once before, unintentionally, when an REM dream ended but instead of waking up my sleep cycle went the other way for whatever reason. My mind was almost completely silent, just enough of a thread to hold the thought of 'this is very peaceful'. Like being up a mountain all alone, with no wind, just complete silence.

Here is the thing with "believing" or not. The world is full of dualities. So in this instance it is 50/50 whether a person's accumulated knowledge lives on after the body dies. It either does or doesn't. I think when I look to Nature I always get the winks. Maybe some of the ideas work if we substitute the word Nature for the word God. Mother Nature. But in that 50/50 consciousness either goes on on some fashion (nature says energy can not be destroyed) OR it simply stops and it is the end to that person's consciousness.

Post-death may not be the same for everyone, is a possibility we don't hear much about. If you look at the NDE experiences, they fall into some obvious categories. There's a percentage who just go blank, remember nothing. Some see loved ones or a figure of love i.e. Jesus. Some see beautiful vistas or geometric scenes. It may depend on where the person was at during life; instinctual, emotional, philosophical, etc. I felt this with my DMT experiences with my friends.. we had vastly different experiences.

Then Nature has a million clues as to how there is way more than meets the eye to reality. And cooperation is how things get done. So the Golden Rule Makes sense. To me this is all very logical.

When I realized just how prevalent the Golden Ratio is throughout nature, that's when I really became sold on the idea that I had overlooked something right in front of my eyes. Why on Earth should a mathematical principle like that be found throughout the natural kingdom, at all. It's bizarre. Either there is some inherent fingerprint of intelligence built in to nature, or nature has become intelligent enough itself to find that mathematical principle spontaneously.

What is even more bizarre is we still don't understand where form comes from, and how it is transmitted from one generation to the next.

 

[-=SS=-]

Doctor explaining how he witnessed many patients recounting experiences they had during cardiac arrest.

 

[golego55]

Human history is one example after another of us not knowing an answer to a question. And instead of saying "I don't know" or "we should look into that" we prefer to pull bullshit theories right out the ass.

Forget religion for a second. Think about how people do this for a host of other reasons. In everyday life.

In the spirit of this thread I'll share a story that may have been the atheistic knock-out punch for me had I not already been an established atheist. But it was several years ago and I was visiting a museum on a small island. And on this particular island the ocean waves were brutal and violent. There was a large book opened to a page that contained artistic renderings of two mythical beasts that were forever battling each other under the waves. I say mythical, but according to my cousin-in-law who was translating for me, this was common belief centuries ago: That these two monsters were thrashing and fighting so hard that they were responsible for the sea's unrest. The smartest organism on the planet- human beings- actually believed this shit!

The point: We'd rather make something up than not know. It's no wonder religion has such a hold on us

Ocean waves grow way beyond known limits, new research finds

 

[deeceeops]

I cycled through various forms of belief throughout my adolescence, but ultimately developed a scientific worldview, whereby any belief in the supernatural is suspended in lieu of evidence. As a young man in my twenties I became fanatical and obnoxious towards the faithful, but I have since grown out of this. I still hold strong non-belief, but am more understanding of the intricacies of those who are religious, and much more averse to knee-jerk opposition to those who think differently to me. I have found myself appreciating religious imagery as time goes on also, still steadfast in my non-belief, just more secure and less inclined to want to undermine those who think differently to me, I guess.

 

[nepalnt21]

the only actually purely scientific belief would be agnosticism.

can you expound on this? i'm not 100% on your meaning here, although i think i might be picking up what you're laying down... which the next section might hopefully touch upon?

Otherwise it's kinda, "The message is there is no message.".
It can't be proven either way.

some atheists do declare "there is no god" (i call that anti-theism, but even that term is muddy imo), but some atheists (i'd guess most) simply don't accept the god claims; the misconception is that the hard position (making the claim that no gods exist) atheism is the only kind of atheism, or the most popular. not saying that's what you're doing, just my $0.02

and i've seen it's often christians that make the mistake of thinking atheism can only be the claim that no gods exist, but then i live in east- littles- bible- beltington so maybe there are more of em/ us here (i grew up xtian myself, although now i'm a science worshipping, evolutionist astrolocosmoversian- satanic atheist).

... anyhoo some call it "agnostic- atheism", but in my experience, most with that position (or really, those of us that do not accept the claims) just call it "atheism". and it would be technically correct, considering most all words i know of have multiple definitions, and if the foo shits...

 

[brokedownpalace10]

can you expound on this? i'm not 100% on your meaning here, although i think i might be picking up what you're laying down... which the next section might hopefully touch upon?


some atheists do declare "there is no god" (i call that anti-theism, but even that term is muddy imo), but some atheists (i'd guess most) simply don't accept the god claims; the misconception is that the hard position (making the claim that no gods exist) atheism is the only kind of atheism, or the most popular. not saying that's what you're doing, just my $0.02

and i've seen it's often christians that make the mistake of thinking atheism can only be the claim that no gods exist, but then i live in east- littles- bible- beltington so maybe there are more of em/ us here (i grew up xtian myself, although now i'm a science worshipping, evolutionist astrolocosmoversian- satanic atheist).

... anyhoo some call it "agnostic- atheism", but in my experience, most with that position (or really, those of us that do not accept the claims) just call it "atheism". and it would be technically correct, considering most all words i know of have multiple definitions, and if the foo shits...

ag·nos·tic
/aɡˈnästik/

1. a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God

But, I agree with your terminology, it has indeed become a common usage.

I'll add one of my own, to make a bit of a point.
There is your "evangelical atheist", who can be just as irritating as the evangelical Christian.

 

[PtahTek]

Faith...?
Getting as old as I have considering what has transpired during those years.
It has always worked out somehow and I keep this in my mind.

 

[kiely]

For some people it's a major event (catastrophe, miracle) that made them find or lose their faith.
For others it was a slow process, triggered either by someone close or through reflection.
Others just follow through with what they were taught growing up.

What was it for you?

Many.