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What made you find faith, or what turn against it?

I don't like everyone's specific interpretation on a story ment to inspire great things in humanity.
You've got 100 different monotheistic versions of the same basic message that are all conveniently at odds with each other.

I like when politicians site biblical consequences for things they deam immoral. My best friend and his family are 7th day Adventist. My parents are roman Catholic. I'm not practicing anything. Most people I know around here ( small city Texas) are either Methodist or southern Baptist. I get along just fine with everyone else.
I just don't like the interjection of ones personal faith into certain politics. It's like I need to pretend to believe in a higher power or my voice doesn't count. Just what I've noticed in discussions with close friends or family. The vast majority of people I know were raised a certain way and that's just who they become, no one really questions it. My best bud could have just as easily been raised Jewish or Islam, wouldn't changed his character.
 
Asparagus_Prince said:
Have you ever had an atheist throw the same question back at you? But in reference to God?
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Yes ofcourse. Then you move into God's attributes, one being God isn't contingent. I argue that God is a necessary being, that he exists prior to and outside of space and time. I ground God's necessary existence on his other attributes, such as being all-powerful. An omni-potent being couldnt have been created by something else. If something where to create God that would suggest the thing creating God is more powerful then God. From there the argument can go a few other ways, but thats how I'd proceed. There's issues with all these philosophical arguments. Contingency in particular has some pitfalls, but its enough to get a conversation started.
 
TheFunkeeJunkee said:
Yes ofcourse. Then you move into God's attributes,
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See, in my view this is why religion vs atheism debates/discussions don't work. Not that that's what this thread's author was trying to achieve necessarily. But, for example, you can't just pluck out the logic card from the atheist playbook to ask something like "How did we come from nothing?" Then when asked the same thing about God throw the logic card back and give supernatural explanations like he's "all-powerful".

Besides, "coming from nothing" isn't a notion atheists concern themselves with as much as religious people seem to think.
 
TheFunkeeJunkee said:
"How can something can from nothing?"
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And that is THE question. The one where faith still has the upper hand, having been steadily pushed back over the centuries by scientific discoveries.

Once there was a time when everything was attributable to god.

"Why is there a plague of locusts?"

"Well God's a bit pissed off because you coveted your neighbour's ass."


But now we know that's just what locusts do.


So now, the only question that the faithful can fall back on is that one.


Science will answer it one day, so what happens to God then?
 
Asparagus_Prince said:
See, in my view this is why religion vs atheism debates/discussions don't work. Not that that's what this thread's author was trying to achieve necessarily. But, for example, you can't just pluck out the logic card from the atheist playbook to ask something like "How did we come from nothing?" Then when asked the same thing about God throw the logic card back and give supernatural explanations like he's "all-powerful".

Besides, "coming from nothing" isn't a notion atheists concern themselves with as much as religious people seem to think.
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Theologians who argue atheism take it very seriously. Dr Graham Oppy comes to mind.
 
F.U.B.A.R. said:
And that is THE question. The one where faith still has the upper hand, having been steadily pushed back over the centuries by scientific discoveries.
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Human history is one example after another of us not knowing an answer to a question. And instead of saying "I don't know" or "we should look into that" we prefer to pull bullshit theories right out the ass.

Forget religion for a second. Think about how people do this for a host of other reasons. In everyday life.

In the spirit of this thread I'll share a story that may have been the atheistic knock-out punch for me had I not already been an established atheist. But it was several years ago and I was visiting a museum on a small island. And on this particular island the ocean waves were brutal and violent. There was a large book opened to a page that contained artistic renderings of two mythical beasts that were forever battling each other under the waves. I say mythical, but according to my cousin-in-law who was translating for me, this was common belief centuries ago: That these two monsters were thrashing and fighting so hard that they were responsible for the sea's unrest. The smartest organism on the planet- human beings- actually believed this shit!

The point: We'd rather make something up than not know. It's no wonder religion has such a hold on us
 
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F.U.B.A.R. said:
And that is THE question. The one where faith still has the upper hand, having been steadily pushed back over the centuries by scientific discoveries.

Once there was a time when everything was attributable to god.

"Why is there a plague of locusts?"

"Well God's a bit pissed off because you coveted your neighbour's ass."


But now we know that's just what locusts do.


So now, the only question that the faithful can fall back on is that one.


Science will answer it one day, so what happens to God then?
Click to expand...
I think you may be understamating the concept of ex nihilo creation and the bounds of what science can answer. I am reasonably confident that science cannot answer some question. I'd like to think I know because I am a scientist.

There's more obvious questions I don't think science can answer like the hard problem of conciousness which was originally posited by David Chalmers. It's about answering the question of why any physical matter produces conciousness rather then unconsciousness. More simply: why do atoms arranged 'brain-wise' produce conciousness. You may think we have made progress on this question but we actually haven't at all. This video covers it in laymans terms very well.

Answering why there is anything rather then nothing is in my opinion equally difficult to answer. People may see God as a convenient answer to this question but I think we need to really think about what God even is. God doesnt need to be Abrahamic in nature. Many people seem more accepting of a God that is deistic in nature as opposed to the personal Abrahamic God.

I wish more people would seriously engage with philosophy of theology because many would see that arguments for theism are just as rational and reasonable as atheism.
 
Asparagus_Prince said:
Anecdotal.

In my experiences the atheist authors I've read, or watched in interviews, or the many I know personally are more likely to say some variation of "We don't know how it all started but we're working on it".
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And that's the difference. Science is willing to admit when it doesn't know something.


But for me, the fly in the ointment is 'Simulation theory'. It's very compelling, but necessitates a 'creator'.
 
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Asparagus_Prince said:
Anecdotal.

In my experiences the atheist authors I've read, or watched in interviews, or the many I know personally are more likely to say some variation of "We don't know how it all started but we're working on it".
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I hope by authors you aren't referring to the 'new athiests' such as Dawkins and others.

Engage with philosophers on both side of the theological debate. Most people have never encountered analytical arguments for God. Only the preachy smarmy shit your average Christian or Muslim argues. I can make some recommendations.

https://philpapers.org/s/Edward%20Feser


philpapers.org

Works by Alvin Plantinga - PhilPapers

philpapers.org philpapers.org
 
F.U.B.A.R. said:
And that's the difference. Science is willing to admit when it doesn't know something.
Click to expand...
I don't claim to know without a doubt God exists. The bounds of my epistemology don't stretch that far and for that matter neither does anyone's. Notice this goes both ways. As far as I can tell, both sides are guilty of this. Really everyone should be agonistic.

If tomorrow testable evidence appears that disproved a God I would have to rescend my belief.
 
TheFunkeeJunkee said:
I think you may be understamating the concept of ex nihilo creation and the bounds of what science can answer. I am reasonably confident that science cannot answer some question. I'd like to think I know because I am a scientist.

There's more obvious questions I don't think science can answer like the hard problem of conciousness which was originally posited by David Chalmers. It's about answering the question of why any physical matter produces conciousness rather then unconsciousness. More simply: why do atoms arranged 'brain-wise' produce conciousness. You may think we have made progress on this question but we actually haven't at all. This video covers it in laymans terms very well.

Answering why there is anything rather then nothing is in my opinion equally difficult to answer. People may see God as a convenient answer to this question but I think we need to really think about what God even is. God doesnt need to be Abrahamic in nature. Many people seem more accepting of a God that is deistic in nature as opposed to the personal Abrahamic God.

I wish more people would seriously engage with philosophy of theology because many would see that arguments for theism are just as rational and reasonable as atheism.
Click to expand...

Perhaps we're not as far apart as I thought. I won't reject "what God is" as a legitimate question. I don't want to speak for all atheists and I'm not a fan of all the sub-definitions of atheism. But for me I simply define it as this: The rejection of man-made religions. I'll never claim there isn't "something" behind this that we don't understand or have never heard of. Which, might sound supernatural but just because we couldn't understand it today doesn't mean it's not science.

I too suspect science cannot answer some questions. And by "science", I mean people. We will never be omnipotent, therefore there are limitations. This is just a guy theory: But I kinda suspect we'll never understand every detail of life's origins. Perhaps it'd be the approximate equivalent of a worm understanding calculus?

I guess I'm not sure why it's difficult for you to answer "why there is anything" when you've already shared that God is all-powerful and necessary. That he acts in other people. And that he exists outside time and space. Don't you have your answer then?

Whew! Trying to square that circle, as a scientist, must cause you headaches.

It's bedtime for me. My mental clarity was fuming a bit during this post. My brain is approaching jellyhood I think. no hard feelings, take care
 
Asparagus_Prince said:
See, in my view this is why religion vs atheism debates/discussions don't work. Not that that's what this thread's author was trying to achieve necessarily.
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You guys were having an interesting conversation. So no complaints.

Bringing the original question back to focus:
I was curious about how certain situations or events in life make you start having faith in a higher power. Or lose that faith.
 
I had to find it in faith that I could be and am now a much better and feel like a much happier being. Is all I am just trying to point out to try and say.

I was getting very hateful and spiteful for a while to the point that I couldn't even stand myself. But then that all changed. Yes, for the best. <3 I feel it.

But then I was around them kind of people.


~~~~~

Thank you.

Amen.

And be good to yourselves !! <3<3
 
I appreciate the very interesting thread. And being able to leave a message and to have the chance for intriguing conversation as well.
<3
---- Thank you !!
 
Please contribute. It helps to share and also to learn what might have hurt you.
Thanx. 🥺<3
🙏
 
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